suggestion Random terrain/map generation

[Kyopaxa]

Hi there,

This hit me again when I saw February Dev Diary about terrain generation. Did you guys at Hinterland ever discussed the idea of terrain/maps being generated randomly at each new game? I imagine you did but understood quickly that it is a really tough development process, almost like a nightmare...

But wouldn't it be a critical feature for a survival game like The Long Dark? After so many runs, I really hate the feeling when I start a new game and I immediately know where I am and where to go at first glance. I literally don't even need to walk, just move my mouse a bit and voila, I know where I am.  I wish I could feel again that sensation of exploration, the fear of being lost, the joy of finding by chance a shelter when I was about to give up.

The way I see it is:

• Identify and classify portions of terrain that will become something like "terrain units" with different sizes.
• Each unti has constraints, like possible orientations, mirroring, distances, amount of times it can appear in the world, variations, it can or cannot appear if another unit is present, must be close to certain units (like cemetery close to church). I imagine there is a long list of possibilities here.
• Each region has a list of must have terrain units that identify the region itself. Timberwolf Mountain must have a hut somewhere and a plane crash. Mystery Lake must have a lake, fishing huts... Or maybe not? Like the Light House or the ship wreck could also appear at Costal Highway.
• Regions can be connected with each other in different ways too. Desolation Point could be before Coastal Highway. Mining tunnels could connect to Mystery Lake instead...
• I guess region names could also be variable since they would be random and it doesn't make sense to know exactly where you are just by walking into the place. Maybe there wouldn't be region names anymore but region types (coastal, mountain, valley, etc).

Damn... I would collaborate in any funding campaign for this! Though I guess the main problem for a feature like this is more technical. Maybe a very small team could be put aside to research and experiment with the idea. Who knows, maybe is not that far from reach after some time.

[Fuarian]

Or new regions entirely

[private duksworth]

oh yeah the one show by hinterland seems to be like a map more centred on the wilderness 

[Reahs]

I really miss the feeling of not knowing where you are and where to go like you felt when you started playing the game and I think that feeling is really important because you have chose where to go depending on the signs the environment gives you like a road, road signs or even some signs of human activity in the distance.

Knowing the map kinda ruins the TLD experience because you have crashed in THE WILDERNESS where you have never been before. Knowing the map more forces you to take quite linear paths like you spawn in Mystery Lake, you loot the camp office then the fishing huts and then you might live there till the food starts getting low. That's when you decide to either move to trappers homestead or to the dam and after those you move on to the next area and loot the same buildings in the same place every time and that's quite boring. Now don't get me wrong the maps are great and I like the game it's just that I really like the feeling when in an area you've never been before and have to make the decisions on do you go the left or to the right? or do you follow this road or the other road and I think you know that feeling.

I hope we get more maps with the new technique at the same level (or even better) at a faster rate because I love when they release a new area that I can explore and experience that feeling but sadly it does not last longer than max 10 visits and after that you are quite familiar with the area and you know most places in that area.

[Kyopaxa]

Of course, new maps are always welcome, but the suggestion focuses on random generation of existing maps, which will solve the issue of always knowing where you are and where to go. The whole island could be generated randomly at every new game. There won't be need for new maps anymore, but just new terrain units and region types to enrich the variety.

Oh well, dreaming is free.

[ArcherAC3]

19 hours ago, Reahs said:

I really miss the feeling of not knowing where you are and where to go like you felt when you started playing the game and I think that feeling is really important because you have chose where to go depending on the signs the environment gives you like a road, road signs or even some signs of human activity in the distance.

Knowing the map kinda ruins the TLD experience because you have crashed in THE WILDERNESS where you have never been before. Knowing the map more forces you to take quite linear paths like you spawn in Mystery Lake, you loot the camp office then the fishing huts and then you might live there till the food starts getting low. That's when you decide to either move to trappers homestead or to the dam and after those you move on to the next area and loot the same buildings in the same place every time and that's quite boring. Now don't get me wrong the maps are great and I like the game it's just that I really like the feeling when in an area you've never been before and have to make the decisions on do you go the left or to the right? or do you follow this road or the other road and I think you know that feeling.

I hope we get more maps with the new technique at the same level (or even better) at a faster rate because I love when they release a new area that I can explore and experience that feeling but sadly it does not last longer than max 10 visits and after that you are quite familiar with the area and you know most places in that area.

Exactly!

I loved the game so much when I first started playing during the 60 minutes preview demo because I didn't know anything and everything I found was something new. I miss so much getting into crossroads and doing bad/good decisions based on where I thought it was best to go.

Now I just don't get that feeling anymore, the magic of the game is just gone that I barely want to play it, unfortunately. I know all the maps, I rarely get lost and I pretty much know how all the mechanics work. The feeling of the unknown is just no longer there.

[hozz1235]

Hopefully, one day, HL will release a Developer's Kit which allows player-made maps.

[RossBondReturns]

While I cannot wait for new territory to explore part of the game is essentially role playing since each survivor is supposed to to be a new survivor who's never been there before.

Playing the game specifically like that can be quite a challenge but it's very rewarding.

[MarrowStone]

I prefer the feeling of new handcrafted maps over randomly generated ones. With today's procedural tech Ive noticed that while it does offer a new experience with every game the maps eventually feel very samey samey because they all use generic objects and are assorted in any order with no story or intention behind why whats where. 

It also bars the prospect of iconic landscapes that wouldnt be so well crafted that members of the community can share with each other, like lonely lighthouse/fluffy and the dam, and Trapper's cabin. In a procedural map theyd be copied and pasted perhaps multiple times in the same map.. Unless certain seeds were shareable like minecraft, thatd be a cool feature.

However, I still do like where this map generation is going because it allows the team to craft maps much quicker. So long as their input is still placed on each region's story and unique theme.

TLDR: I totally understand the advantages of procedural maps and seeing it implemented in a survival game like TLD would be quite adept at keeping even veteran players lost, Id much rather prefer the community sharing  a common game world thats been more handcrafted and curated by the devs. Especially if the new technology can be used to increase the speed at which new maps can be made.

TLDR (TLDR) 

I wouldnt complain if we got a procedural map survival mode just dont join it with the handcrafted ones, they have much more character than a modern algorithm can provide.

[Doc Feral]

I'd love random maps too, I'm an enthusiast boardgamer, so I'm imagining a hex or square tile map system. Landmarks such as Milton's church, the lighthouse, farms, the various towers are classic "map tiles". Every "piece " could be randomly rotated with the only exceptions of roads, rivers, coastlines and railways. The existing maps could be virtually chopped in dozens of pieces and then virtually shuffled. It would be easy to assign stats to each tile (predators, harmless fauna, shelter, salvage) that could be used to determine the map's composition.

[Wormer]

We know this wouldn't happen, right? At least in the proposed form: change everything we have in favor of procedural generation. Existing regions are a whole lots of work done to make them in the first place and to fix bugs second. TLD is the game without jumping ability, only imagine the amount of pitfalls where "tiles" would connect. There is a game that made unbelievable terrain generation -- Star Citizen. It probably took the team working on that feature for Star Citizen several years to make it done.

The way I see procedural generation can live within TLD is to enclose the existing "core" regions with procedurally generated circle of "unnamed" regions. Would be fun. Who knows, maybe we'll have a chance see that happen in our life.

[ben91]

i also miss the Feeling of being "lost" on a new map but i think a System with totally new maps for every playthrough is very hard to execute for such a game.

instead i would Focus as the developers to reduce the Feeling of knowing every Detail of the TLD world that many experienced Players have.
to do that i would try to make the world as random and individual as possible. they tried to o that a Little bit by randomly generate Locations like bunkers or destroyed houses but that is not really enough. there should be totally different spawn Locations for certain shelters and objectives so experienced Players cant be 100% sure where to find These objectives. this also goes for fixed spawn Areas for all the animals we have and Things like ravaged deer carcasses. furthermore they should try to make the world in itself more active and exciting so Players dont really notice the familiar world as much. and as i always say....the best way to achieve that is probably to give the Players the best posssible mod-support as soon as possible, so that the Players themself can help eachother to create a very exciting world.

 

[odizzido]

I'd love this, but I can only imagine how much effort it would take to make it decent. Maybe something to look at after the game is done?

[Pillock]

This topic has been popping up reasonably regularly since I've been following the game, and I 've always said that I favoured development time being spent on new maps that were custom built rather than on a system to generate them randomly.

But, it will be interesting to see how the new map (River Valley?) plays out, because it's apparently going to be completely 'wild' and without man-made structures at all. If you've got lots of man-made structures on a map, then I think it probably quite difficult to build a random map-generator that can create convincing, believable environments that feel real - that's the advantage of building them all by hand. But with wilderness environments, it may well be easier to get right with a random generator, because you haven't got to worry about logical human-like placement of things like roads or buildings or radio towers, for example. You just have hills, rivers, caves, trees...  (The only problem with that is, there isn't currently a mechanic for fishing without man-made fishing huts. So that would need to be addressed, otherwise the maps would be missing out on one of the key parts of survival in TLD.)

I think the idea somehow feels much more feasible now than it ever was in the past. And the feeling of being lost in the world is important: it's something I'd long forgotten about, and would welcome back!

[qqqbbb]

Procedural maps would be great. I had most fun with the game when I played survival maps for the first time. Replayability drops to 0 after you learn the maps.

[MarrowStone]

I still prefer handcrafted maps over procedural. Stuff is placed more logically and each map has its own theme and iconic location. 

Id say the best solution is to mix the two (which it seems they are doing now) natural landmarks are procedurally generated and then the team goes in, tweaks them, adds manmade stuff and spawns and thn the maps done. Much faster, which allows us to be "lost" much more frequently :3.

I do believe ravaged carcass locations and wildlife spawns need to be a bit less predictable however. Maybe even have certain shelters be randomly "snowed in" and require a shovel to enter. (Or by hand at the cost of increased frostbite risk and time, or perhaps a fire could slowly melt it away.)

[Wormer]

Like I said earlier too, they can have handmade regions as the core of the island and then possibly infinite procedurally generated "wilderness" regions without man made structures that go around the core. More wildlife sapwn in the "wilderness", less wildlife regeneration in the core regions to make it scarce over time making player go "deeper" into the unknown for hunting trips later in the game.

[cekivi]

Welcome to the forums @qqqbbb  

[Carbon]

 Procedural maps likely wouldn't 'make sense' in the context of the needs of the player, linking to other regions, loot/structure locations, etc., and would have an adverse effect on balance. While I understand the desire to have a 'new' set of maps with each playthrough (assuming they would be generated at the start of a game and would then remain static through the course of the run), I don't think it would provide the same experience as having thoughtfully-made static maps. Implementing procedural mapping also has the danger of making things somewhat generic.

 Great maps never get old. How many games have I played on Facing Worlds, Brécourt Manor, Nar Shadaa Streets or DE_Dust and they never lose their cool. TWM, ML, CH...heck, all of the maps are pretty much classics in TLD and the game wouldn't be the same without the care and attention that was put into crafting them.

 This might ruffle some feathers, but to me FM seems like something that would be procedurally generated. Kind of bland overall, doesn't make a lot of sense to me past having a forge, a kind of randomized layout ( just plonking things down over a map) and to me, lacks balance and flow. I fully understand and appreciate the idea behind it, but of all the maps in TLD, it seems the most like something that would come out of a procedural implementation. Somewhat uninspired, with it's claim to fame being that it is the place you don't want to be. You'd never get a DP from procedural mapping. MT and BR have sections that are also somewhat random to me. In MT, the large lower lake section holds nothing of note (the player has no motivation to want to go there and has too much effort put into it to simply be a transitional area) and in BR, the same: the initial area you walk through after the transition (and down to the frozen area on the right)  feels quite unremarkable until you reach the landslide.

 Anyhow, I understand the attraction of the idea, but think that in execution would ultimately be a letdown.

[Doc Feral]

The "tile" system with different stats for each piece would make balancing easier, given each map has a set total for each. Flat surfaces such as roads, railroad tracks and rivers could serve as boundaries between pieces solving different altitude issues, and be used to link different maps. Of course there wouldn't be anything as cool as the dam's dungeon or cave systems  to move between maps. Yes, I'm thinking Settlers of Catan with roads built around hexes.

[Stone]

@Pillock's thinking makes sense to me - really just scaling up the random selection of albeit 'fixed' placements to the terrain itself. That could work especially if you design zones where random traversable fixed placements, like weak ice, log bridge, etc, signicantly alter how you can traverse a large area. In random generation of that sort scale is an issue; a mountain or large lake, etc. are features needing some sort of larger scale terrain co-ordinator to direct a large number of elements and smooth their edges together. We're talking a whole other game engine. I'd love it but true random is a huge undertaking.

[Tbone555]

this would be awesome. while the long dark has always been about an experience forged by hinterland, it seems that theyre branching out from that a bit, with the addition of custom sandboxes. to have random map gen would reaaaaaaally add some replayability. the only reason i dont typically play the long dark daily anymore is because... well, not to brag, but im a veteran. i know every map like the back of my hand, and so by the time a new map comes out i usually have that explored fully in a matter of a couple days, then get bored again. if it was new every time i booted it up and i felt lost over again just like my first time playing, it would add to the experience so much. +1

[cekivi]

To address the OP, randomness and procedural generation could be implemented without compromising the game's curated areas. Each map has transition zones linking them. Future transition zones (and perhaps the ones we already have) could become random and/or procedurally generated. The transition maps are small enough so they hopefully wouldn't be too labour intensive to design, the larger narrative of the game would remain intact, and it would make transition zones challenging to traverse and fun to explore again. 

I wouldn't really be in favour of full procedurally generated large maps though. Hinterlands have put in a lot of work to craft beautiful zones with lots of unspoken narrative and interlocking pieces. It'd be a shame to lose that.  

[stratvox]

I am against the idea of procedurally generated regions. While some games that use that technique are great, the human touch in the maps are what make them spectacular. The straight-up beauty of this game is a large part of why I love it so much, and I think that procedurally generated maps would kill that; views like looking over PV from the radio tower and seeing how the region makes sense from a geography/geology/human settlement perspective are part of what makes it great. It'd be a shame to get oneself up to a good overlook spot and be able to spot the tiles used by the procedural algorithm.

IMHO, of course

[Tbone555]

why not both? kind of like 7 days to die, we could simply choose if we want to play the created maps or have a randomgen experience. the created maps would serve their purpose for story mode, of course, mainly.