November 2023 Dev Diary

[SlippedGear]

6 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

The notion of "realism" and how much is right for TLD has been a topic going on 10 years now, and I'm really not sure what to say about it other than...then entire premise of the game world is that a mysterious geomagnetic disaster has basically wiped out technology, but then again sometimes it operates based on inexplicable rules -- which gives you things like Buffer Memories, electrical hazards, Glimmer Fog, aurora-affected wildlife, and a host of things in WINTERMUTE that you have and have not seen yet. 

I understand that maybe you thought TLD was going to be this super realistic survival sim, but that's never been the goal or the premise. I think I've said that for 10 years now. Everything in the game is meant to be in the game. You can dislike it, but you can't say it doesn't belong. The IP has always had some sense of mystery and surreality to it and that's always been part of the tone of the game, and it's what keeps it interesting for me. And with TALES, we deliberately created some distance (metaphorically and physically) so that'd we'd have a palette to play with that's a bit different from the stuff you typically see in the rest of Great Bear. A sense of mystery, abandoned projects, the wrecked environment, etc. These are all ideas that exist in other aspects of TLD as well (not just WINTERMUTE, but Survival too).

Beyond that, there's all the typical jumping to conclusions about how different mechanics might work (mainly all the ways in which people fear they might not work the way they hope), which I guess I will just respond with: I guess it's good you have something new to talk/argue about. 😅

I really think Raphael has addressed most of these issues that have been brought up over and over with the Custom Settings where anyone who is not happy with a particular mechanic can change or disable it. I think sometimes people forget that they have the option to use custom settings. I would like to ask, please, that the team add the new features to the custom settings when they get a chance. Thank you so much for adding custom settings in the first place!

[Nervous Pete]

7 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

 

I understand that maybe you thought TLD was going to be this super realistic survival sim, but that's never been the goal or the premise. I think I've said that for 10 years now. Everything in the game is meant to be in the game. You can dislike it, but you can't say it doesn't belong. The IP has always had some sense of mystery and surreality to it and that's always been part of the tone of the game, and it's what keeps it interesting for me. And with TALES, we deliberately created some distance (metaphorically and physically) so that'd we'd have a palette to play with that's a bit different from the stuff you typically see in the rest of Great Bear. A sense of mystery, abandoned projects, the wrecked environment, etc. These are all ideas that exist in other aspects of TLD as well (not just WINTERMUTE, but Survival too).

Beyond that, there's all the typical jumping to conclusions about how different mechanics might work (mainly all the ways in which people fear they might not work the way they hope), which I guess I will just respond with: I guess it's good you have something new to talk/argue about. 😅

It's pretty interesting as the initial vibes I picked up were a Wyndhamesque post-apocalyptic tale largely based in nature, but I also know that the longer the creative process goes on the more the story the writer intended shifts, which is always a good thing. In the end you've got to lean back and trust whoever's driving the car to take you someplace cool. No writer worth their salt ends the first place they intend. The journey we've had so far in The Long Dark has been ridiculous value for money and if you were to drop the curtain now the Jack London survivalists amongst us (of whom I am one) can still flip cartwheels. I'm sure the final story even if it moves into the surreal will preserve those initial feelings. For me The Long Dark in my head-space was perfectly framed by the wonderful cinematic piece you had with Christopher Plummer, which stressed your struggle against nature and the hard choices of a natural apocalypse. It still stands. I'm sure I'm also going to enjoy what you release next in the series. If in the end I find myself mentally placing myself in a natural cataclysm within the custom sandbox mode then I'm super happy that your game has given me the option to live that chilling yet cosy fantasy. But the opportunity to encounter something stranger also is pretty exciting as well. 

Which is kind of a roundabout way of saying 'trust the driver' but at the same time The Long Dark has had great scope to cherry pick your favourite wintry survival aspects and I'm certain that this new development will leave those intact, while enabling you to be increasingly disconcerted the further you move into the far territories. 

I might find it interesting in the light of your latest stories to revisit my 'cosy catastrophe' essay series on this forum where I compare classic apocalyptic sci-fi both  American and British to the Long Dark, and see what new comparisons can be made.

 

Anyway in summary The Long Dark is my favourite Canadian thing since Kids in the Hall, and remains so.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Nervous Pete

[rush247]

Don't know why everyone is so bummed about the toxic wolves.  They don't really sound like zombies to me.  Also I don't think they're a replacement for cougars like some are thinking, Raph would say so if they were I would think.

[RossBondReturns]

53 minutes ago, rush247 said:

Don't know why everyone is so bummed about the toxic wolves.  They don't really sound like zombies to me.  Also I don't think they're a replacement for cougars like some are thinking, Raph would say so if they were I would think.

They are absolutely including the Cougar.

Raphael has been talking about adding one for years, excitedly, and he's not about to not add it now.

[Mig_zvm]

11 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

The notion of "realism" and how much is right for TLD has been a topic going on 10 years now, and I'm really not sure what to say about it other than...then entire premise of the game world is that a mysterious geomagnetic disaster has basically wiped out technology, but then again sometimes it operates based on inexplicable rules -- which gives you things like Buffer Memories, electrical hazards, Glimmer Fog, aurora-affected wildlife, and a host of things in WINTERMUTE that you have and have not seen yet. 

I understand that maybe you thought TLD was going to be this super realistic survival sim, but that's never been the goal or the premise. I think I've said that for 10 years now. Everything in the game is meant to be in the game. You can dislike it, but you can't say it doesn't belong. The IP has always had some sense of mystery and surreality to it and that's always been part of the tone of the game, and it's what keeps it interesting for me. And with TALES, we deliberately created some distance (metaphorically and physically) so that'd we'd have a palette to play with that's a bit different from the stuff you typically see in the rest of Great Bear. A sense of mystery, abandoned projects, the wrecked environment, etc. These are all ideas that exist in other aspects of TLD as well (not just WINTERMUTE, but Survival too).

Beyond that, there's all the typical jumping to conclusions about how different mechanics might work (mainly all the ways in which people fear they might not work the way they hope), which I guess I will just respond with: I guess it's good you have something new to talk/argue about. 😅

     I personally am enjoying the new content so far.  The only thing I would say is that I was hoping for more custom options to be added into the game and so far none of that has changed.  Not sure if maybe there is some extra work needed to be done to rework the code sharing system and maybe it is something coming after all the maps are finished, but to me even the smallest additions for custom settings would go a seriously long way.

     Just to give some examples, the  Cattail and Coal are two of the most OP loot in the entire game.  I think players who play on Interloper- NOGOA settings would appreciate being able to scale back the effectiveness of these items, by creating a setting which lessens the amount spawned.

     Also for these players, the indoor temperatures are way too forgiving.  Not sure why we can't turn off the temp bonus at the back of caves if we wanted to either.

     These are the most basic requests I can think of off the top of my head without even getting into a debate over design choices and new gameplay mechanics, and simple ideas like this I believe would help balance out the game for people who want to keep challenging themselves and hopefully towards feeling the same rush they had while first starting out in TLD.

     

     

[Gazbeard]

Like someone said above, I hope the new toxic wolves have their poisoning capability balanced out by being easier to kill (i.e. weakened by starvation and the toxicity they carry). 

Even just being able to scare them off, or wound them, with fire-hardened arrows would go part way towards that.  I never liked the Timber Wolf packs and they made me quit playing, streaming, and making youtube series, pretty much from the week they were introduced.  Even now the only run I jump into every couple of months is a Pilgrim run to test new content and locations.  Timberwolves killed the game for me, I'm sure Toxic Wolves will bury it.

I certainly dislike the idea of the toxic wolves ... they are unneccesary and contrary to natural logic.  Sure have normal wolves carry toxins on their claws and fur, not their teeth and saliva where it would also poison and kill them.  Have contact with their fur or scratches from their claws infect us with the poison, but also have just that external contact also slowly kill the carriers; weakening them, slowing them, reducing their health stats as well as their strength.

Otherwise, drop the toxins mechanic and just use rabies in the local wolf population to make them more dangerous than normal.  Though to be honest, adding yet another wolf variant and hazard just makes me exclaim a quiet "FFS" and roll my eyes.

Honestly, I'd have prefered a mechanic such as the new region carrying myximatosis (sp?) in the rabbit population, and the player having to return there every few hundred days to cull the rabbits to prevent it spreading to the healthy regions ... and do the same in any previously healthy region where the disease arrived.

I'm also sceptical about the requirement for a full set of (civilian) N.B.C. clothing.  Is there going to be somewhere close to the mine where we can store it if it's only needed for there?  Will we be guaranteed no despawn of it from containers during database updates for future patches (long term players will remember those events)?  Is it weight v cold-proofing balanced?  Does it replace sufficiently the damage protection of clothing that would need removed to wear it?  What is the encumberance and movement penaltiy it delivers - enough to increase melee difficulty, or the opposite?  Will cattails and other plants (e.g. reishi, rosehips, burdock, birch, etc.) growing near the mine also be contaminated?  If so how will we tell healthy from poison-bearing plants?

I have so many questions around this one-purpose clothing set, and worry this may be the mechanic that introduces "adding stuff to justify jobs at Hinterland" rather than "adding stuff to enhance the game".

Almost all of the other stuff in the announcement is much welcomed,  it's only the wolf variants and the whole toxic environment and protective clothing addition that concerns me.  I particularly welcome the travois and thermos, although I would have preferred an antler-runner sled to a travois.

[Mistral]

4 hours ago, Mig_zvm said:

Also for these players, the indoor temperatures are way too forgiving.  Not sure why we can't turn off the temp bonus at the back of caves if we wanted to either.

     

This, thousand times

[Glflegolas]

5 hours ago, Mig_zvm said:

     I personally am enjoying the new content so far.  The only thing I would say is that I was hoping for more custom options to be added into the game and so far none of that has changed.  Not sure if maybe there is some extra work needed to be done to rework the code sharing system and maybe it is something coming after all the maps are finished, but to me even the smallest additions for custom settings would go a seriously long way.

     Just to give some examples, the  Cattail and Coal are two of the most OP loot in the entire game.  I think players who play on Interloper- NOGOA settings would appreciate being able to scale back the effectiveness of these items, by creating a setting which lessens the amount spawned.

     Also for these players, the indoor temperatures are way too forgiving.  Not sure why we can't turn off the temp bonus at the back of caves if we wanted to either.

     These are the most basic requests I can think of off the top of my head without even getting into a debate over design choices and new gameplay mechanics, and simple ideas like this I believe would help balance out the game for people who want to keep challenging themselves and hopefully towards feeling the same rush they had while first starting out in TLD.

     

     

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure how cattails could be nerfed...but I'm not against having to mine your own coal with a pickaxe.

Another idea: why do carcasses freeze, but toilet water, pop cans, and water bottles in your backpack don't? If food and drink froze solid over time, coal spawns could be left as is, but more fires (and fuel) would be necessary to thaw out frozen food and drink so it's consumable. 

I believe there was a summer event a couple years back that made interiors colder. Then again, underground caves and mines tend to stay rather warm, even in winter. 

[Mistral]

17 minutes ago, Glflegolas said:

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure how cattails could be nerfed...but I'm not against having to mine your own coal with a pickaxe.

Another idea: why do carcasses freeze, but toilet water, pop cans, and water bottles in your backpack don't? If food and drink froze solid over time, coal spawns could be left as is, but more fires (and fuel) would be necessary to thaw out frozen food and drink so it's consumable. 

I believe there was a summer event a couple years back that made interiors colder. Then again, underground caves and mines tend to stay rather warm, even in winter. 

Cattails could easily be nerfed if there was separate slider in the Custom options for them. Perhaps even to turn them off completely. Currently, there is slider for "harvestable plants", which decreases the amount of overall plants (cattails, reishi, rose hip etc). So you can have that set as "low", instead of the ridiculously overpowered "high" that even Interloper has for some bizarre reason as default. However, even the "low" setting gives you millions of cattails and those other plants, particularly now that the game world is so massive.

Coal amount should be another "low/medium/high" setting too. And as I've said before, beachcombing, bunkers and some other game-easing luxury assets should have "on/off" buttons as well. I doubt this would be that hard to implement.

Agree on the water/liquids freezing.

As for the interiors being colder, yes they were 10 degrees colder in that "Winter's Embrace" oneoff event back in 2020, but otherwise that was very easy Voyager-based event that you could offset by any clothes you found in the first 2 minutes. Besides, AFAIK the temperatures didn't really change per outside, they were just generally slightly colder. But yes generally speaking, interiors should definitely be colder, in real life these cottages and whatnot are in fact often much colder than the outside if not preheated for hours and hours. There should definitely be an option in the Custom options to enable cold interiors and temperature drop in accordance to outdoor temperatures. Currently, you can only do it in the Relentless Nights -mod.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Mistral

[Leeanda]

Hi @Admin     how are you all doing?  I hope you're keeping safe and well?

[Mistral]

13 minutes ago, bladerunner900 said:

Looking forward to the changes to first person and the new gear for survival. No doubt my long run Loper will be visiting the new region but not without first sending in some sacrificial lambs. I'd hate to lose him to some mystical/gamey mechanic.

It's safer to use guinea pigs with Poison Gas for sure

[UpUpAway95]

On 11/11/2023 at 5:54 AM, BugReportEnthusiast said:

I hope you can't make water by boiling snow when you're sitting on toxic ground. Would be kinda silly if you could, imo

Depends on the toxin, doesn't it?  I wouldn't mind if this was a zone where we have to bring in everything we eat and drink for whatever duration we need to be there because the zone itself is so toxic.  Gives the travois a purpose as well as a better reason for favouring the new lightweight, high calorie bannock as a travel food.  Surviving 50-days in that zone may be a really hard challenge run - and probably not a zone you ever want to spawn in on any difficulty.

Edited November 12, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[Luca Loquax]

I AM SO HAPPY I THINK I AM GOING TO BARF ! 

[UpUpAway95]

45 minutes ago, BugReportEnthusiast said:

@UpUpAway95 Boiling water doesn't work like that lol, it only kills the alive stuff inside snow

Heavy metals, carcinogenic materials, or plain old gasoline and petrol can't be removed from a cup of water by boiling it next to a campfire

 

That's what I was saying, isn't it?  It depends on the toxin whether boiling will make the water safe or not.  I suspect the toxin in the new zone will be a heavy metal (or a bunch of them), which cannot be removed by boiling - and we'll be required to bring in all our food and water with us to last however long we need to stay in that zone to do whatever the quest/task is to get whatever reward.  I also suspect the wolves in this zone may actually steal the food we bring with us since they are starving and so desparate (Which is something people have been asking for, isn't it?)

[ManicManiac]

I'm very excited for the new update, and as always fully support & respect whatever decisions Hinterland makes for their game.  I have always trusted Hinterland to do good work and craft a great experience for us... and in my opinion, they have never failed to do just that.

Even though I've said as much, I will say it again (as I think it bears repeating).  Any and all of my initial concerns and musings about some of the upcoming features, are absolutely based on my own imagination and assumptions about what information was given here.  

Despite any worries or anxieties about how we fear or think a feature/mechanic *might work... It's fair to say that it only all really comes to bear when it's been released, and we get to see how the new aspect fits in with the rest of the game as a whole.

I truly can hardly wait until I get to see and experience the next wonderful chapter, in the struggle to survive on Great Bear Island.

Edited November 13, 2023 by ManicManiac

[Leeanda]

32 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I'm very excited for the new update, and as always fully support & respect whatever decisions Hinterland makes for their game.  I have always trusted Hinterland to do good work and craft a great experience for us... and in my opinion, they have never failed to do just that.

Even though I've said as much, I will say it again (as I think it bears repeating).  Any and all of my initial concerns and musings about some of the upcoming features, are absolutely based on my own imagination and assumptions about what information was given here.  

Despite any worries or anxieties about how we fear or think a feature/mechanic *might work... It's fair to say that it only all really comes to bear when it's been released, and we get to see how the new aspect fits in with the rest of the game as a whole.

I truly can hardly wait until I get to see and experience the next wonderful chapter, in the struggle to survive on Great Bear Island.

Well said 😊

[acada]

This just creates more questions. Scurvy: Where I will get vitamin C when all rosehip is consumed? And when it happens, wil I need more bandages? Is there any sauerkraut on the Island?

Poisonous lake: What will happen when I take my shoes off and go barefeet.

Poisonous wolf: Is it edible?

[stratvox]

All right! Looking forward to this very much @Admin and @Raphael van Lierop. 

Thanks to all you folks for the work you put in to this game; it's far and away my personal fave. Looking forward to seeing how all this works. 

[stratvox]

1 minute ago, acada said:

This just creates more questions. Scurvy: Where I will get vitamin C when all rosehip is consumed? And when it happens, wil I need more bandages? Is there any sauerkraut on the Island?

Poisonous lake: What will happen when I take my shoes off and go barefeet.

Poisonous wolf: Is it edible?

I can say that if you were to go barefoot in some of the real mine tailing ponds that are extant you're gonna probably lose your feet, and you're not gonna make it very far. Generally mine tailings are insanely toxic and insanely corrosive. For example, here is a common chemical used in mining: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_regia

It's used because it's one of the few things that can dissolve the "noble" metals, such as gold and platinum. Here's the nut graf: "Aqua regia (/ˈreɪɡiə, ˈriːdʒiə/; from Latin, literally "regal water" or "royal water") is a mixture of nitric acid and hydrochloric acid, optimally in a molar ratio of 1:3. Aqua regia is a fuming liquid."

Depending on what was being mined and how the ore was extracted from, mine tailings can remain incredibly dangerous for decades, and an unmaintained tailings pond can truly create serious dangers for any creatures in the area as the lack of maintenance can lead to events like the Mount Polley disaster in BC: 

 

As for effects over time here is a reasonable article about what kinds of long term effects one can expect from unmaintained tailings ponds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_mine_drainage

[acada]

I do have idea about the corrosivness and toxicity of these chemicals IRL. Just wonder if walking barefeet in the pool in the game will be insta-death or character will became poisoned. For sure I will not try it on my Astrid long term run. 

"Hey Will. Here is Astrid. Can you do something for me? I lost a thing in the mines, could you be dear honey and get it for me from the pits?" 😁

[hozz1235]

It's great to see some fresh "buzz" going on here!  It really is nice to sense everyone's excitement and anticipation for Part 4.  Thank you for the dev update.

My initial thoughts:

1. I'm hoping the new gear/items will mostly be free-placed so us long-run players will have the same opportunities to find the items.
2. As some others have expressed, I'm somewhat skeptical about the direction of the new zone.  Call me old-fashioned, but my favorite are still the traditional TLD zones.  I'm certainly going to give ZC it's fair shake, but I am seeing it as a BR (Blackrock) type of zone in which I loot it and don't return.
3. Scurvy - just hope there is a renewable resource to deal with this.

Time to go make some "breakout session" posts. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by hozz1235

[ManicManiac]

1 hour ago, Abenico said:

Glad you've find your peace

I'd never lost it. 🤭
I was just reiterating what I'd already briefly mentioned in my previous posts on the thread.  Especially in light of some of the other comments that have surfaced over the last few days. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by ManicManiac

[ManicManiac]

20 hours ago, Abenico said:

Same as other people who has no spine and will never become men in real life as they can't take the risk and responsibility. Will never live life. Good luck with a main character.

Seems a little judgmental, even antagonistic...  

[UpUpAway95]

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

Seems a little judgmental, even antagonistic...  

Aunt Lucy was a very wise bear. 😀

[piddy3825]

3 hours ago, hozz1235 said:

It's great to see some fresh "buzz" going on here!  It really is nice to sense everyone's excitement and anticipation for Part 4.  Thank you for the dev update.

My initial thoughts:

1. I'm hoping the new gear/items will mostly be free-placed so us long-run players will have the same opportunities to find the items.
2. As some others have expressed, I'm somewhat skeptical about the direction of the new zone.  Call me old-fashioned, but my favorite are still the traditional TLD zones.  I'm certainly going to give ZC it's fair shake, but I am seeing it as a BR (Blackrock) type of zone in which I loot it and don't return.
3. Scurvy - just hope there is a renewable resource to deal with this.

Time to go make some "breakout session" posts. 

I'm inclined to agree with your assessment and I think that maybe gear decay needs to be tweaked so that not everything is rotted and ruined by the time I finally get to find it.  As to scurvy, kinda looking forward to that as I recall there has been much discussion about the effects of an all-meat diet over the years on these forums.  I seem to recall a few threads that thoroughly hashed out all the possible remedies that a survivor could find on the island to combat scurvy so I'm definitely curious as to what resources Hinterland will actually use.