The Case for Paid Expansions

[Sherri]

Lots of players questioning things like:

• Where is episode 4&5?
• Why don't they answer the Mailbag anymore and they haven't replaced it yet.
• Why no news when we were promised news?

My business-person perspective on this, is that Hinterland might have had to drop their devs to part-time or layed people off, but not wanted to make this widely known.

• The pandemic made in-person working a no-go and added a lot of personal strain on employees esp. if they have children.
• Hinterland AFAIK has no other games on market. Long Dark... while AMAZING, peaked its sales long ago I'd assume. And is probably just providing a trickle of income now - usually spurned by sales. But games sold on sale earn less profit. I can't fathom how you pay several developers, designers, voice actors, motion capture people, Ralph and any other managers, testers, etc... on the trickle of income from a popular yet several years old game. The market for people who love open world, peaceful, survival games must be pretty close to saturated.
• They are located in  Victoria and Vancouver, BC... two of the most expensive places in Canada so salaries must be competitive aka high.
• They do a lot of donating... which is cool, but costs more $.
• They don't sell addons and no longer sell swag.

If they had to switch folks to part-time or lay people off... I wouldn't be surprised or upset. It happens. But it's also not a surprise if they want to keep it on the down low so there isn't a freak out of people crying for episodes 4 & 5. That would hurt any potential future sales.

I can't for the life of me figure out why they don't make a bunch of 'semi-official' sandbox level packs and release them as paid expansions. They don't have to be QUITE as huge and detailed as regular levels, but they would keep sandbox players interested in fresh content and generate more income. Once you have a cool game engine that people love playing in... adding level packs should in theory be easy-ish. Heck, I'd pay for some of these. They could be in a new survival mode "Beyond Great Bear" and give you other real and made up environments to explore in.  They could make it so these levels don't connect to the main Great Bear levels, so that the 'real' survival mode is kept pure. Maybe disable achievements in these levels. The only restriction is they have to be cold regions of course. But that doesn't HAVE to mean snowy Canada. Since Ash Canyon introduced those awesome rope bridges... imagine a whole level set in the tops of great redwood trees with networks of bridges and ropes. Or a whole level of ice caverns. An entire level of densely packed forest like the birch area in PV. A crowded town like a full map of Milton. A large indoor complex. Etc.

Heck, I know this is unpopular... but I would PAY for episodes 4 & 5. At this point I have played so many hours of this game and bought it on sale... my entertainment value is a few cents per hour played. I feel like I owe them more money. I would have bought swag if it was still available. LOL.

Even a $5 addon with a pack of unique clothing items would be neat.

There is a reason so many game studios monetize the heck out of their games, running a game studio is expensive. I get wanting to not be like the other greedy, crunch-loving, pay-to-win, 500 cosmetic items to buy.... type of game companies... but you do need to be a little bit greedy in monetizing your amazing work, if you want to stay healthy as a company. You don't have to be jerks about it, it can be done WELL to benefit both players and company.

Even a Patreon or another Kickstarter is better than NOT getting the final episodes.

I want to give them more $ but have no way to do so. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just my 2-cents.

 

EDIT: Did the math... I've now gotten under 5 cents per hour of entertainment value from this game. Currently the CHEAPEST form of entertainment available to me beyond reading free books. HAHA. Holy smokes Hinterland. Sell some expansions.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Sherri

[Admin]

40 minutes ago, Sherri said:

Lots of players questioning things like:

• Where is episode 4&5?
• Why don't they answer the Mailbag anymore and they haven't replaced it yet.
• Why no news when we were promised news?

 

We know there's a lot going on in this post, but we'll address these bits at this point...

• Episode Four and Five are in progress. Our focus is on Episode Four right now, and it's coming along. We hope to be able to speak more about it soon, but as always we want to avoid setting a target that we miss, so making promises on dates at this point isn't going to happen.
• The time and attention of Creative Director @Raphael van Lieropis one of the most vital resources for the studio and is limited. The previous Mailbag would take a couple hours of his week each week we did it, and we want to find a way of reaching our players and community without taking Raph away from working on the game and studio growth. We're talking about things internally, and leaning towards a few ideas but until we can do something on an ongoing basis we don't want to say too much.
• We hope to have more information soon, which loops back into the first answer.

The other point to be made is that we are working on the game, as mentioned, and not releasing the last two Episodes is not an option on the table. So while we appreciate the desire to help us financially, we've promised them and we will deliver them without our players having to buy anything more.

[Raphael van Lierop]

I don't jump into these threads much these days (really busy, as @Admin pointed out!) but when it comes to speculation around my business, I like to set the record straight and touch on a variety of points and speculation in this post.

Without commenting too much on the paid DLC idea, I can 100% confirm that we have not switched folks to part time or laid anyone off. In fact, we are actively hiring and growing (which anyone looking at our website can clearly see). 🙂

https://hinterlandgames.com

We have always committed to including Episodes Four and Five with the purchase of the game and we still plan to deliver on that for everyone who has bought it with that promise in mind. Episode Four is not far away and Episode Five will follow. The game still sells well for us -- our business is healthy. We believe we can continue to run a profitable business without being greedy, which is why we haven't charged for Survival updates and the like.

(We also think selling a reasonable and fairly-priced slate of DLC products would also be entirely fine, at least that's what we keep hearing from a lot of our players, but those would be "in addition to" the episodes we have committed to. We'll probably put out some feelers into the community to see how people feel about the idea, as it would be nice to expand the game in some ways that are harder to justify if we are doing them essentially "for free".)

On the topic of no longer selling swag -- we temporarily shut down our merch store b/c of COVID, to avoid people having to go into the physical studio to deal with inventory, take it to the post office, etc. We'll re-open it at some point. That said, the merch store is not a money-maker for us -- we run it more as a service to our fans. We make a bit of profit on it but almost nothing.

Re: Episode Four and other stuff -- there will be a new dev diary coming "soon" -- the team's just finalizing some assets for me.

Thanks for your concern about our business but we're doing well and continuing as we always have.

- Raph

[romerabr]

I gladly pay for more content to The Long Dark. I already bought it on steam and Microsoft store, if this means more Co tent for more time. I first bought the game 4 or 5 years ago, and it still is the game I play the most, and I expect to play many more. Thanks for a great game, constantly evolving and growing. 

[Mroz4k]

Hi. I would not be suprised if the Hinterland officials eventually weighted in on this conversation, but I am not one of them. Just a member of the community who was around for a while. Every once in a while, a topic like this comes up. In fact, I made mine back in 2018. It does feel like the game cannot be successful with such a price but somehow it is. In fact, many of the things they added to buy were more of a collector type of items, not really meant to be monetized. But, somehow it is.

I would say its wise not to assume things. Especially the worry about laying people off. Im sure thats something some companies do, and the Hinterland does go "dark" sometimes with less social media presence, usually when they are too busy working. But, they also hold their high standards of transparency, so some hushed shortening of staff is something completely out of character. I believe the gift shop was closed due to the difficulties of handling e-shop during pandemic just added onto a list of things they would have to deal with. I dont think anyone here believes they made the gift shop merch for profit.

The thing you propose is something of a problem considering what Hinterland stands for. From what I know from his interviews on how he runs the studio, Raphael van Lierop maintains that it is possible to run an indie game studio and still hold up to the core ideals Hinterland studio has.  

As for the net worth - its once again something of a speculation. I think TLD even once was for free on Epic games store. Still, they are on multiple stores on various platforms and the game is still quite popular.  Lets assume for a moment that with the 3,3 mil copies sold in 2019, the average price for the game was 20 USD. It is 30 now, but with sales, and early access going for as little as 10 USD (the price I paid in 2014) the average would be somewhere at 20 USD, even with the digital seller´s cut. That is 66 mil USD gross net worth from just selling TLD.

Im sure the pandemic had an impact on Hinterland. It had impact on all of us. From what I remember of Twitter, they are mostly working via home-office like most of the world and they had quite a bit of work to do since the pandemic started. 

From my point of view - I think its mostly a matter of reputation. If Hinterland went the DLC way, it would be fore content that they not planned for the original game - something like "an exploreable island that you can sail to or something" - that would provide that new experience. Im sure the game will become more expensive as it has more content - and rightly so, its value is in my opinion undervalued. But I doubt they will go down the way to monetize the content they originally promised to deliver upon with the base game, like Episode 4 & 5, and even less likely that they will include the usual way to monetize games nowadays through cosmetics. Think most people who play indie games despise big AAA titles for microtransactioning, so if Hinterland went this way, they might get another revenue stream this way but they would also get an equaly hard hit to popularity.

The game does not seem to be doing badly. While yea, pandemic hit us all, people also spend more time at home, which Im sure had a positive impact on sales of home entertainment, such as games. I think that late 2020, the game won an award in Canada? Not sure anymore, but Im pretty certain the game does hold its own. And Im sure glad for it.

Edit: Speak of the devil... yep, thought so that Hinterland would clarify those points. 

Further on the topic - I wont speculate much past this, but if you really want to support the game, and are playing it on PC, you can always buy it again. You wont get much of it, unless you dont have it on Steam where you can earn a way to do the Steam achievements, I guess.

Another very good way to support Hinterland for The long dark, would be to buy the original soundtrack. There are two volumes out as of right now on Steam. 

Volume 1
Volume 2

If that is still not enough for you, OP, I also highly reccomend to advocate for The Long dark in all game competitions you come across. I highly reccomend to keep tabs on "Game of the year" awards, and register to throw in a vote for the game. And of course the good old-fashioned "reccomend to a friend" type of support. 

Edit 2: Speak of the devil yet again. Somehow I had a feeling I would see the creative director to post on this as well. 

-----

For myself - I want to say thanks to the whole Hinterland team for their hard work and for the amazing result that is TLD. As someone who keeps coming back, I hope my presence is an indication of how much you delivered on your original promise. Best wishes and keep up the great work!

[piddy3825]

I think you may hit upon a nerve here considering the rather quick reply by Admin just as I was reading this post.
and then Raph's post within minutes.  Looks like you got the boss's attention @Sherri

 You make some good and credible observations here and I too would be willing to "pay" for some new DLC if given the opportunity whilst waiting for the ever elusive upcoming episodes of Story Mode. at one point in time there was some talk about opening up the platform to some modding, ie. User Generated Content or something to that effect, back when the Milton Mailbag was still a thing.  Considering the rather talented players and devoted TLD enthusiasts, I'm wondering why there hasnt been more progress in Hinterland collaborating with the modding community to address some of multitudes of items on the wish list.  i dont see why there cant be some innovations and collaborations considering the brilliance of some of folks in the modding community.

quick thought regarding the merchandise aspect...
Raph says ,   "On the topic of no longer selling swag -- we temporarily shut down our merch store b/c of COVID, to avoid people having to go into the physical studio to deal with inventory, take it to the post office, etc. We'll re-open it at some point. That said, the merch store is not a money-maker for us -- we run it more as a service to our fans. We make a bit of profit on it but almost nothing."

that sounds like a little BS to me.  Those of use that would love to buy merchandise would do so via mail order not going to the physical store.  Mail order is as no contact as retail sales can get.  I ran the mail order division for a local retailer who had 5 stores.  It was a lonely job considering I was by myself most if not all the time and I never got out to go anywhere, cause incoming new merchandise for resale was delivered and outgoing orders where picked up by our contracted mail carrier.  Not a problem to practice social distancing and/or no contact when they drop off boxes at your back door and pick em up the same way...   I want my coffee cups and sweatshirt!

ah, well, no matter what happens, this will still be one of my most favorite games out of  my 227 titles in my steam account...

[Mroz4k]

4 minutes ago, piddy3825 said:

I think you may hit upon a nerve here considering the rather quick reply by Admin just as I was reading this post.
and then Raph's post within minutes.  Looks like you got the boss's attention @Sherri

Not really. I think that most community members underestimate how much the Hinterland are keeping tabs on the forums. Its just this topic that often generates a response, because if they did not, we, the community members, tend to speculate and that is usually how rumours are born. Its best to respond quickly and satisfy the answer which is kinda what they did. But the Hinterland reads forums a lot.  (its something to keep in mind)

7 minutes ago, piddy3825 said:

quick thought regarding the merchandise aspect...
Raph says ,   "On the topic of no longer selling swag -- we temporarily shut down our merch store b/c of COVID, to avoid people having to go into the physical studio to deal with inventory, take it to the post office, etc. We'll re-open it at some point. That said, the merch store is not a money-maker for us -- we run it more as a service to our fans. We make a bit of profit on it but almost nothing."

that sounds like a little BS to me.  Those of use that would love to buy merchandise would do so via mail order not going to the physical store.

You still need to have workers, working on-site to package and mail things out, even if the physical store would be closed. Then there is more to consider - the legislation and further pandemic restrictions on export... it adds up. Im sure the health concern is just one of the list of reasons to close down the e-shop. From a friend that runs e-shop as his business I know that right now, it is not a good time to be a small e-shop. Lots of administrative hoops to jump through at a miserable profit perspective.

[Admin]

Just to be clear about what @Raphael van Lieropwas saying in regards to our store.

Our online store is currently closed due to COVID-19 levels in our province. While we can work from home to develop The Long Dark running a store, even an online one, requires people to go into a central location, and deal with people taking risks that are currently avoidable. If we were a clothing store first, then we would find safer ways of dealing with this and manage it in the same way that you can still buy things from most online retailers. However we are a game studio and run the store simply as a service for fans, and not as a primary revenue source. 

We'd prefer to have it open, but since nobody at Hinterland's job depends on the store we're not keeping it open for now. We'd rather not get someone sick to sell merchandise when we're not a merchandise company. So we understand that people want to buy our merchandise, but right now our focus is more on game development which is our primary purpose, than it is on merchandise sales. We also know that some of you may know ways that we could do it safely, or at least in a more safe way, but there's no way safer than simply not doing it right now.

[Stinky socks]

Thank you, this is like cup of clean, potable water when thirsty!!💝💧

[Sherri]

1 hour ago, Admin said:

We know there's a lot going on in this post, but we'll address these bits at this point...

• Episode Four and Five are in progress. Our focus is on Episode Four right now, and it's coming along. We hope to be able to speak more about it soon, but as always we want to avoid setting a target that we miss, so making promises on dates at this point isn't going to happen.
• The time and attention of Creative Director @Raphael van Lieropis one of the most vital resources for the studio and is limited. The previous Mailbag would take a couple hours of his week each week we did it, and we want to find a way of reaching our players and community without taking Raph away from working on the game and studio growth. We're talking about things internally, and leaning towards a few ideas but until we can do something on an ongoing basis we don't want to say too much.
• We hope to have more information soon, which loops back into the first answer.

The other point to be made is that we are working on the game, as mentioned, and not releasing the last two Episodes is not an option on the table. So while we appreciate the desire to help us financially, we've promised them and we will deliver them without our players having to buy anything more.

Oh I'm not asking these Qs. I'm happy to wait. And I know progress is being made.  I just see a lot of impatience. lol

Edited March 3, 2021 by Sherri

[Sherri]

I want to clarify... I didn't mean this as a criticism in any way. This is my favourite game of the last ... hm almost decade... I just get bothered by the impatience and complaints and wanted to offer one possible theory.

The long and the short is that I feel like I somehow got this game for a steal (Steam Summer Sale) and wasn't expecting to get so much fun out of it. Just wanted to offer an opinion that more paid "stuff" would not be out of line and I'd be happy to invest more money in TLD *if* money was a possible roadblock.

Since @Raphael van Lieropassures us that money is not an issue... I rest assured.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Sherri

[Mroz4k]

You wont be the first or the last who made a post such as this, like I said, I remember making one with similar worries in 2018 or so. I, too, was reassured. I think they are quick to respond to these topics to prevent rumours. At the time, we were concerned about the funds going down, there was a rumour around about Hinterland going through some financial difficulties, and it was not true. Turned out the Hinterland were just dark because they were hard at work on the update that brought us the Revolver. (I think it was late 2018 but might be wrong, sense of time is not my strong suit)

Im sure that if the funds seem to be going dry, Hinterland does have backup ideas for such occurence. Its a good business attitude to have a contingency plan ready in case. Its also nice to hear that the DLC idea is not completely out-of-the-question as was implied, and I hope to see them drop those feelers in the future. But I reccon they will start thinking about DLC content once the base content is out and that still has some way to go. 

17 minutes ago, Sherri said:

The long and the short is that I feel like I somehow got this game for a steal

That is how I feel. Since I bought the game back when there was just Mystery lake to explore, Im not even sure if it were 10 or 5 USD at the time, but it was very early alpha and I did not have to pay for the game since.  The price felt like a steal back then, imagine now... 

That is why Im happy the OST content is out on Steam for sale. Its a way to pay some extra and support the studio to make more going further. I could also just buy the game as a gift for someone else, thinking about it...

Edited March 3, 2021 by Mroz4k

[piddy3825]

56 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

Im sure the health concern is just one of the list of reasons to close down the e-shop. 

 

53 minutes ago, Admin said:

Our online store is currently closed due to COVID-19 levels in our province.

I tend to forget sometimes that we're talking about a Canadian based company and that the local COVID-19 health restrictions may still be more restrictive  than elsewhere in the world.  I guess I should consider myself fortunate that the government leadership in my neck of the woods has allowed many business to re-open provided they practice make sense social distancing rules and essentially stay masked and/or gloved in most cases while limiting on premise capacity.
 At least we can out to eat again and enjoy a cocktail with friends.  

I will say that I was in lockdown for most all of 2020 and during that time almost exclusively played TLD sometime up to 8 hours a day!  
I played a game about surviving in complete isolation during a time that I was almost completely totally isolated.  there's some irony for you.

Here's to the world getting back to normal again! 

 

[Loonsloon]

My two cents on paid content addition - yes please (particularly Survival); it seems to me that Hinterland has been overly generous with the region expansions.   Ash Canyon for instance (also HRV, and Bleak I suppose I've learned to 'love') blew my mind and I kinda felt like I should be paying for them because they were so great.  I've put in several thousand hours into TLD and paid 30ish bucks for it on PC and something like that on PS4 to try HDR mode.  But I'm a die hard fan and I suppose my money is guaranteed.  As for the new guys and gals...not sure what draws them in.  Is it Wintermute or Survival?  Either way, paid DLCs might actually bring more attention to the game and bring in more folks compared to free updates.   Might seem strange to ask for stuff to not be free, but I really do feel like I've had the games value in entertainment multiple times over.  I also wonder if the game is underpriced for it's quality, which crosses over from video game to art, and succeeds in both worlds as I see it.  Of course I want to see this thing stay financial viable; there is vast wilderness of your minds that we have not yet explored!  That being said, if the vast wilderness were to appear in the next title, I'd not be disappointed because the part of the game I enjoy most, Survival Mode, has felt complete for me since 1.47 (though it keeps getting more complete:).  But I do feel like Great Bear could already be 'done' and I think Hinterland could attack the next title if they aren't already.  That is unless they want to expand custom mode, add mod support, add more varied regions (airfield? tundra?), add procedural map generation, etc., of course it will be even completer and I will surely consume.  But for a guy like me you're already way into bonus territory and these things might not affect the newcomer's decision. 

[starlin]

Just to touch base on the psychology here.... and why people need to put more effort on getting a handle on their anxieties..

A lot of folks are currently getting too hung up on continuous feedback loops.  Being involved in several other early access games, there has always been, and continues to get worse, this concerning trend of needing frequent attention as a player, along side this tendency to binge single things at a time.  If you've paid any attention to gaming news, you should already be familiar with the kind of vapidness that circulates around AAA games, AAA Publishers, their marketing habits, and player base habits.  More importantly, you should also be aware of how this stews into a text book abusive relationship; and its kind of shocking how hard fans tend to actively march down that path.

But the real problem is how that toxicity and insecurity is spilling over into smaller games, because of how social media and video platforms manages to draw attention to indie space.  And rather then learn and show understanding for the differences, some try to exert or project their thought processes as a basis of presumed/speculative fact, despite not having enough information to go by.  For bigger games, this is the default mode, because big games and their player base have this kind of bipolar relationship that flips between zealous and adversarial, depending on what a person "wants" to be true.  And like most social media debates, they have a high risk of skewing toward an extreme position very quickly.  

Because when I saw the title, I immediately wondered if this had anything to do with the recent Anthem news.  As this wouldn't be the first time something high profile happens, and triggers a cascade of panic that gets projected into every other game of interest on people's radar.  For a lot of people, it seems like they aren't able to remember a time where something can go quiet for a couple months and suddenly pop back up later.  So the assumption is when the "engagement" stream stops, "something is wrong".  This, more then anything else, is what irks me the most about modern gaming communities. 

 

I know WHY it happens- but its a self fulfilling prophesy when "being on the right side of an argument" (even if done unconsciously) creates a Rosco's Basilisk where success or failure is predetermined, rather then a function of working facts.  For small communities, this easier to manage... which has a basis in sociological mechanisms.  But in larger communities, its a constant nightmare to have to deal with where every action or inaction, regardless of circumstance, is scrutinized under a microscope for any minor flaws, and second guesses every decision in order to make claims of "in/competence" on the Devs part. And thats not even getting into the tendencies of schisms forming around various game ideas, and how its used to make claim of the Devs playing favorites. 

 

For me, the kind of arguments that pop up around here are like watching children argue over which color tastes better.  Which is good thing in the greater picture of what else is going on.  But you have to be VERY VERY careful when you start bringing in serious concerns and accusations to the playground.  Especially when its built purely on conjecture, with no evidence to support your position, your thought process, or the implied outcome being signaled. 

 

OP just questioned the Financial solvency of a game studio based solely on the fact that they don't blog as often as they used to.  As a Player, you might think of studios as interchangeable entities.  But as a business owner, this could be seen as borderline defamation.  At minimum, its FUD. The intention is irrelevant here, because it has the power to cause real damage to a business where reputation carries a lot of weight in their success.  In whats left of Journalism, you'll notice quality reporting and investigation to puts verifiable facts first, and speculation to a minimum.  Unfortunately, what gets passed as journalism, especially in gaming, is highly sensationalist; and goes through the process backwards to start with an outcome (one that will get attention), and work out evidence to support that claim in away that makes it look like the current state of "truth".   Then you have opinion pieces which are presented in a way that makes them appear to be more factual then they actually are. 

 

If you look the few posts I've made here;  They are either very short, for the sake of humor.  Or long, (attempting) comprehensive explanations, as a way to explain as best I can, the kind of blind spots in our way of thinking creates these kind of poorly thought out, occasionally assertion driven positions about various subjects. I've been this way for decades, and has only gotten more expansive as Devs, Film makers, Critics, Writers and "Content Creators*" are becoming way more open with how their processes work, and how the more commercialized side of the industry misuses that on mindbogglingly fundamental level. 

 

*(which is a word you should not take lightly, with how Corpo speak is entangled in that space)

[RegentRelic]

3 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

our business is healthy.

Always good to hear.

[Bean]

I’m glad Hinterland is doing well.  I always want people who serve their customers so well to also do well financially!  
Thanks for a great game!  I bought it on Steam and also for PS4 and have logged far too many hours.  
 

I would like a Hinterland hoodie and coffee mug like in game.   And I’d like to support Hinterland in those purchases.  I know Amazon accepts sourced products from chinese suppliers to their warehouses and then ships the goods directly to the customer from the warehouse.  The vendor never has to handle the goods.  Since you want to be hands off, a deal like that might work out well for your company?  
The Chinese suppliers can be contacted through alibaba and produce printed clothing or mugs or whatever, by the gross of course, and ship it to amazons warehouses.  I doubt it would take more than a day to set it all up and you guys wouldn’t have to do much else!  Anyway just a suggestion. 

[Sherri]

51 minutes ago, starlin said:

OP just questioned the Financial solvency of a game studio based solely on the fact that they don't blog as often as they used to.  As a Player, you might think of studios as interchangeable entities.  But as a business owner, this could be seen as borderline defamation.  At minimum, its FUD. The intention is irrelevant here, because it has the power to cause real damage to a business where reputation carries a lot of weight in their success.  In whats left of Journalism, you'll notice quality reporting and investigation to puts verifiable facts first, and speculation to a minimum.  Unfortunately, what gets passed as journalism, especially in gaming, is highly sensationalist; and goes through the process backwards to start with an outcome (one that will get attention), and work out evidence to support that claim in away that makes it look like the current state of "truth".   Then you have opinion pieces which are presented in a way that makes them appear to be more factual then they actually are. 

@starlinI really like your post here and agree fully with your points about fans developing an unhealthy need for constant attention. For a small company this can result in a HUGE burden. Those of us who use this forum look for updates here. But don't forget there are also the Steam Forums, Twitter, Facebook, etc communities that revolve around this and other games. How much time, & energy must a studio spend on giving news, feedback, attention to all these different communities? A huge company like Blizzard can have an entire paid department whose job it is to engage players on all these platforms... a smaller studio doesn't have the manpower to do so. And players getting angry because there isn't a steady IV drip of updates/news is burdensome and unreasonable.

I personally don't engage in player communities almost at all. This TLD forum is the first and only I've been involved in for many, many years. And even then just to pop in and see what's new. My post was targeted at the players who bemoan the lack of updates and offered one possible theory. Just to say, don't freak out folks, there could be business reasons for delays and those would be legit reasons (ie, they aren't betraying original promises, there's more to it than just "where's my game, what's taking so long boohoo"). In fact I was originally posting as a reply on the Milton Mailbag thread specifically to a user upset that the Mailbag had not yet been replaced, then moved it here.

Where I disagree is the idea that my post was anything like defamation or harm. To say "Hey I love your game, if income stream is an issue, I and many others would happily give you more money for small things," is not a negative post. Heck I'd like that kind of post targeted at my own company and game. LOL. I started off by offering one possible reason for slow updates... and evolved into daydreaming about paying for more awesome TLD stuff. This is very different than spreading rumors. I also was very sure to post this (now debunked) theory here on official forums where official responses can be made... rather than whispering about it in non-official communities like fan groups on Facebook or whatever where a theory could grow without being seen by Hinterland official people. I am well aware that these are official, moderated forums - I actually prefer official communities like these because nonsense and false info is less likely to be there. I was bitten by false rumors of HalfLife 2 Episode 3 ... many many years ago... I prefer my info straight from the source after that fiasco. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Sherri

[Mig_zvm]

2 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

 

(We also think selling a reasonable and fairly-priced slate of DLC products would also be entirely fine, at least that's what we keep hearing from a lot of our players, but those would be "in addition to" the episodes we have committed to. We'll probably put out some feelers into the community to see how people feel about the idea, as it would be nice to expand the game in some ways that are harder to justify if we are doing them essentially "for free".)

I would really like to see what could be done with The Long Dark Survival Mode if it did happen to come back to you and the team's full undivided attention again.

If the average player now has paid around $30, or half the price of a typical game at launch, then charging another $30 sounds beyond reasonable to me.

Now I would really like to hear you say that you are gonna pack $50 worth of extra content and bug fixes, and include free updates to polish the base game as well.  Really get to see The Long Dark have the send off it deserves.

[odizzido]

Depending on how everything turns out and what the DLC is I would at least look and consider getting it. I am generally happy with hinterland so far.

[starlin]

7 minutes ago, Sherri said:

@starlinI really like your post here and agree fully with your points about fans developing an unhealthy need for constant attention. For a small company this can result in a HUGE burden. Those of us who use this forum look for updates here. But don't forget there are also the Steam Forums, Twitter, Facebook, etc communities that revolve around this and other games. How much time, & energy must a studio spend on giving news, feedback, attention to all these different communities? A huge company like Blizzard can have an entire paid department whose job it is to engage players on all these platforms... a smaller studio doesn't have the manpower to do so. And players getting angry because there isn't a steady IV drip of updates/news is burdensome and unreasonable.

I personally don't engage in player communities almost at all. This TLD forum is the first and only I've been involved in for many, many years. And even then just to pop in and see what's new. My post was targeted at the players who bemoan the lack of updates and offered one possible theory. Just to say, don't freak out folks, there could be business reasons for delays and those would be legit reasons (ie, they aren't betraying original promises, there's more to it than just "where's my game, what's taking so long boohoo"). In fact I was originally posting as a reply on the Milton Mailbag thread specifically to a user upset that the Mailbag had not yet been replaced, then moved it here.

Where I disagree is the idea that my post was anything like defamation or harm. To say "Hey I love your game, if income stream is an issue, I and many others would happily give you more money for small things," is not a negative post. Heck I'd like that kind of post targeted at my own company and game. LOL. I started off by offering one possible reason for slow updates... and evolved into daydreaming about paying for more awesome TLD stuff. This is very different than spreading rumors. I also was very sure to post this (now debunked) theory here on official forums where official responses can be made... rather than whispering about it in non-official communities like fan groups on Facebook or whatever where a theory could grow without being seen by Hinterland official people. I am well aware that these are official, moderated forums.

I didn't think you were ill-intended.  But like I said, intention is irrelevant where the damage is real.  And when you take into account that critical thinking on the internet is now a matter of narrative, people can take things literally as means of crafting a narrative, and the burden of fact checking has been shifted to the defense (rather then the one that made the original accusation), anyone trying to make a rational argument has to make it a lot more grounded.  Otherwise it'll fall out of their control, and become part of the FUD machine.

I've learned to spot and call them out quick, because "official" responses (regardless of content) can become inflammatory to an audience/community when cynicism is the mix.  It shouldn't have to be this way.....  but the way the internet functions weighs heavily toward statements made by "people", as if it were a reverent sign of purity.  Incidentally this is why so many devolve into ad hominid, as in a lot of ways, facts are kind of irrelevant.

[peteloud]

While on the subject of Hinterland activities what often runs through my mind is, 'what new projects HTL is working on?'.

Is there a completely new game being developed?  Perhaps they are working with a film studio to produce a cinematic release.

 

 

 

[ProsPex]

Thank you Raph for taking time to comment. Looking forward to future Survival updates and possibly paid DLCs.

[Mroz4k]

It is clear that OP´s intent was just a worry for the game, which is very understandable considering the global crisis we all face. I disagree with the notion that this is something new. I also believe intention is actually very important. Even factual information can both be misunderstood or misused, that is just the way things are, and always will be for as long as there are different opinions. It is something that one has to take into account. Part of the reason why recent updates are a good thing is to combat rumours which will nevertheless be started regardless of how constant the updates are. It is undeniable just as undeniable is the existence of conspiracy theorists - as long as there is free will and freedom of speech, misinformation or misunderstood information will be a thing. But Im not going to get any deeper into this phylosophical debate - important is that Hinterland was quick on the trigger and they clarified the worries of OP. 

I am also very glad this thread was made, because Im sure that while OP opened it up, there are surely more people from the community who grew increasingly worried, and this topic put their minds to ease. Now it will be a few months before something like this happens again, at which point Im sure Hinterland will be once again quick on the trigger.

6 hours ago, peteloud said:

While on the subject of Hinterland activities what often runs through my mind is, 'what new projects HTL is working on?'.

Is there a completely new game being developed?  Perhaps they are working with a film studio to produce a cinematic release.

There is a possibility for both. But I dont think TLD sequel is being worked on just yet. It would be wasted effort that could be concentrated on finishing the ongoing project. Unless the part of the team is currently without things to do, which does not sound like Hinterland . And there were rumours that a movie might be made, based on The long dark theme. Think it was the director of Resident evil who was considering this, but it was a few years ago and no mention of it till now, I think it just didnt happen. Which is a shame. I do remember that a lot of the community of TLD became vocal about it, wanting a different director, not realizing that it was most likely effort from the side of the director, not Hinterland, to make the movie. So change in directors would not make sense... but the negative feedback on that might be what put an end to the movie. Im heavily speculating here, though. This was 2017. Here is the article.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/resident-evil-producer-developing-long-dark-film-1025426
Before anyone jumps the gun if this is or was real... Hinterland posted this very article on these forums, so yea - can be quite certain it is, or at least was, real. You can find the link in the Elegy thread.

I think there is still a lot to esplore in TLD. I mean, Raphael wrote such a detailed backstory to the game and the location, there are many mysteries to solve yet. And there is plenty of room for a lot of additional DLC content. As I mentioned before, I remember Milton Mailbag 10 with the description of Great bear and how there are other islands close to it. I can fully see a DLC that would allow the survivor to sail from Great Bear to a different island close by for a whole new unexplored map. Could be from Desolation point and only during aurora, where the survivor would use the lighthouses on both islands to navigate in between the islands. Just some food for thought. There sure is a lot of potential.

[hozz1235]

I would suspect that HL is focusing most of their resources on finishing Ep. 4 & 5.  There have been many "disgruntled" players over the years crying out for Wintermute to finish up.  If it were me, I would take the same approach @Raphael van Lierop is - focusing on Wintermute while releasing some additional content now and then. 

With all the work being done on mods recently, I would think HL could easily take that work and apply it to the core code.  Perhaps this is what we'll see after Wintermute?

Regardless - for the thousandth time, THANK YOU Hinterland Team for the best game ever.