Survival savegames and game settings.

[dahemac]

There are a couple of basic design problems that have become a bit more irritating lately as all hard-won progress was erased.

1) Please add a SAVE option. It was after work, I got on TLD for some very gradual clawing back of all the progress I have lost. I left the trailers above Mountain Town and started walking up to the bridge with the bear. After quite a few minutes of doing this and that, collecting resources in stormy weather, my irl phone rang. It was a colleague, thankfully also a tolerant friend. “Oh s**t,” I said, answering the phone, “I have to walk all the way back down to the trailers to save or else I will lose all this progress.”

2) Either add game settings to the control or develop an official cross-platform savegame editor. Perhaps have a contest for the community to develop the best one and win a prize. I have started three new survival games since February (¿?) and I have no desire to start over yet again. Except that I would like to increase the detection distance for animals noticing me. I want to make the game harder. But for no reason, there is no setting adjustment for this and I would have to start a new game AGAIN to make this change. Such arbitrary presumably deliberate game disabilities are maddening. I know this is possible because there have been third-party PC savegame editors. Just do it.

[Admin]

21 hours ago, dahemac said:

There are a couple of basic design problems that have become a bit more irritating lately as all hard-won progress was erased.

1) Please add a SAVE option. It was after work, I got on TLD for some very gradual clawing back of all the progress I have lost. I left the trailers above Mountain Town and started walking up to the bridge with the bear. After quite a few minutes of doing this and that, collecting resources in stormy weather, my irl phone rang. It was a colleague, thankfully also a tolerant friend. “Oh s**t,” I said, answering the phone, “I have to walk all the way back down to the trailers to save or else I will lose all this progress.”

2) Either add game settings to the control or develop an official cross-platform savegame editor. Perhaps have a contest for the community to develop the best one and win a prize. I have started three new survival games since February (¿?) and I have no desire to start over yet again. Except that I would like to increase the detection distance for animals noticing me. I want to make the game harder. But for no reason, there is no setting adjustment for this and I would have to start a new game AGAIN to make this change. Such arbitrary presumably deliberate game disabilities are maddening. I know this is possible because there have been third-party PC savegame editors. Just do it.

Thank you for your feedback. We hear your frustration, and we appreciate your suggestions. 

In the future, we request that posts remain respectful and constructive, and follow all Forum Rules and Guidelines. 

[dahemac]

You request, “that posts remain respectful and constructive.” And I thought, “what the heck did I type that resulted in that?” And now, I see that you didn’t like the word “s**t,” a word my mum, a Sunday school teacher, often used and I could not have imagined was proscribed swearing (?) in the context in which it was used.

But I get that this is your space and your rules. As much as I disagree if this is indeed what you were objecting to, I am not 100% certain, I will not use that word again, even in a quote of my having exclaimed it. I regret the offense, especially if it makes you take the quite serious feedback less seriously. Which is the real reason to, “follow all Forum Rules and Guidelines.”

Thank you for your time.

[wilsonaka]

You could just sprain an ankle. That'll save the game for ya.

[Leeanda]

8 hours ago, dahemac said:

You request, “that posts remain respectful and constructive.” And I thought, “what the heck did I type that resulted in that?” And now, I see that you didn’t like the word “s**t,” a word my mum, a Sunday school teacher, often used and I could not have imagined was proscribed swearing (?) in the context in which it was used.

But I get that this is your space and your rules. As much as I disagree if this is indeed what you were objecting to, I am not 100% certain, I will not use that word again, even in a quote of my having exclaimed it. I regret the offense, especially if it makes you take the quite serious feedback less seriously. Which is the real reason to, “follow all Forum Rules and Guidelines.”

Thank you for your time.

It might've been the "just do it" ...    It comes off as very pushy and obnoxious...  

You could also just pause the game .  Or passed time in one of those cars on the bridge.

 

[hozz1235]

4 hours ago, Leeanda said:

You could also just pause the game

This...

I'm very good at hitting the Escape key.

[Leeanda]

4 minutes ago, hozz1235 said:

This...

I'm very good at hitting the Escape key.

That's one of the reasons I use a controller.   Plus not shooting the gun by accident when I'm trying to pick something up.

[Lone Walker]

If you have a bedroll you can save the game at anytime, just put the bedroll on the ground and sleep for one hour and it will save the game.

[conanjaguar]

@dahemac

How often do we get caught without an hour’s worth of firewood and a bedroll? Saving is that easy... or get some mild injury like @wilsonaka suggested.

[dahemac]

Or you know, like any normal game, add a save.

[ManicManiac]

[conanjaguar]

19 hours ago, dahemac said:

Or you know, like any normal game, add a save.

11 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

^^

[conanjaguar]

Before this thread gets locked… there is a legitimate and easy way to save that doesn’t carry much risk… and it works until level 5 cooking.

Always have a piece of cooked wolf or bear meat on hand. When you need to save in a hurry, take a tiny nibble of it and cancel eating. That will give you risk of internal parasites and save your game, allowing you to come back later and have 24 hours to deal with the possibility of parasite infection.

[Leeanda]

26 minutes ago, conanjaguar said:

Before this thread gets locked… there is a legitimate and easy way to save that doesn’t carry much risk… and it works until level 5 cooking.

Always have a piece of cooked wolf or bear meat on hand. When you need to save in a hurry, take a tiny nibble of it and cancel eating. That will give you risk of internal parasites and save your game, allowing you to come back later and have 24 hours to deal with the possibility of parasite infection.

I didn't realize that it saved doing that... Possible risk doesn't strike me as an affliction . Thank you . 

And an official Happy Birthday 🎈🎈🎂.     

 

[MrWolf]

On 5/1/2023 at 11:22 AM, conanjaguar said:

Before this thread gets locked… there is a legitimate and easy way to save that doesn’t carry much risk… and it works until level 5 cooking.

Always have a piece of cooked wolf or bear meat on hand. When you need to save in a hurry, take a tiny nibble of it and cancel eating. That will give you risk of internal parasites and save your game, allowing you to come back later and have 24 hours to deal with the possibility of parasite infection.

I'd much rather just pop into a cave or start a fire in a relatively wind-free place and pass time for an hour.  Much better than risking parasites.

[Dr. S.]

I agree with the OP. Lack of save anywhere is easily my least favorite thing about TLD. 
 

Yes, there are workarounds. I’ve used than all (except the parasite thing). I’ve left my game paused overnight. If I want to quit after looting a building I go outside and immediately back in. Same for traveling through transition caves. Etc, etc. 
 

But it’s also true that there are times when the workarounds are infeasible or disadvantageous. The status quo isn’t always better. 

[UpUpAway95]

9 minutes ago, Dr. S. said:

I agree with the OP. Lack of save anywhere is easily my least favorite thing about TLD. 
 

Yes, there are workarounds. I’ve used than all (except the parasite thing). I’ve left my game paused overnight. If I want to quit after looting a building I go outside and immediately back in. Same for traveling through transition caves. Etc, etc. 
 

But it’s also true that there are times when the workarounds are infeasible or disadvantageous. The status quo isn’t always better. 

I agree... well said.  Also, since people are so adept at finding workarounds to it anyways, what is really the point of not just adding in a legit save function?

[xanna]

If I could save by pressing a button it would change my playstyle a lot, I'd be doing safety saves before starting a bear hunt or whatever, and probably never allow myself to get in serious trouble or die. I think the discouragement to save often and think of saves as a useful thing is a core part of TLD, it expands the feeling of permadeath to feel as though every decision is permanent. That gives a lot of TLD its character, for me, the saving mechanism is telling part of the game, the part about the permanence of desperate decisions.

Of course, I could just ignore the save button, but I know I wouldn't, and it would change how I feel about what the game is saying about itself.

[UpUpAway95]

14 minutes ago, xanna said:

If I could save by pressing a button it would change my playstyle a lot, I'd be doing safety saves before starting a bear hunt or whatever, and probably never allow myself to get in serious trouble or die. I think the discouragement to save often and think of saves as a useful thing is a core part of TLD, it expands the feeling of permadeath to feel as though every decision is permanent. That gives a lot of TLD its character, for me, the saving mechanism is telling part of the game, the part about the permanence of desperate decisions.

Of course, I could just ignore the save button, but I know I wouldn't, and it would change how I feel about what the game is saying about itself.

I understand that, but wouldn't an optional "toggle manual saves off" button in the accessibility menu serve the same function for those that do feel it would lessen their permadeath experience while avoiding unduly frustrating players who, for example, have to deal with more IRL interruptions to their play sessions?

[ManicManiac]

The current save system was a deliberate choice... and I think it was a good one on Hinterland's part.

Seems to me, that the game is all about player choice, and their being consequences for every single one of those decisions.
Much like most of the tools, weapons, and even locations... each have advantages and disadvantages (it's what gives each its own subjective value). 

Going wandering out across Great Bear Island is a risky proposition... the way the auto-save system is setup now means we have to push to get to the next shelter, because out in the open we're not "safe."  If we venture out, then we're making a commitment (of sorts) to that journey.

On the other hand, we also have the option to save wherever and whenever we like... the consequence is that we have to sacrifice and hour of in-game time to do that.
...it's a trade off, and I think it's a fair one.  Every one of our choices in The Long Dark comes with a consequence... a tradeoff (if you will).

Yes, of course, there is the auto-save that triggers when we gain an affliction.
🤭  I think that was an especially nice touch.  Helps make consequences a bit more meaningful when a player has to work a little bit harder to save-scum out of a situation they regret or don't want to face.  

It also creates another interesting choice for a "quick-save."  If we really want to quickly save that way, the tradeoff is "It's gonna hurt!"   

Edited May 3, 2023 by ManicManiac

[UpUpAway95]

14 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

The current save system was a deliberate choice... and I think it was a good one on Hinterland's part.

Seems to me, that the game is all about player choice, and their being consequences for every single one of those decisions.
Much like most of the tools, weapons, and even locations... each have advantages and disadvantages (it's what gives each its own subjective value). 

Going wandering out across Great Bear Island is a risky proposition... the way the auto-save system is setup now means we have to push to get to the next shelter, because out in the open we're not "safe."  If we venture out, then we're making a commitment (of sorts) to that journey.

On the other hand, we also have the option to save wherever and whenever we like... the consequence is that we have to sacrifice and hour of in-game time to do that.
...it's a trade off, and I think it's a fair one.  Every one of our choices in The Long Dark comes with a consequence... a tradeoff (if you will).

Yes, of course, there is the auto-save that triggers when we gain an affliction.
🤭  I think that was an especially nice touch.  Helps make consequences a bit more meaningful when a player has to work a little bit harder to save-scum out of a situation they regret or don't want to face.  

It also creates another interesting choice for a "quick-save."  If we really want to quickly save that way, the tradeoff is "It's gonna hurt!"   

I find it a little ironic that you talk about the game being "about player choice" when it prevents a very basic accessibility choice to be made by the player... whether to manually save the game or not.  Instead, just because some players would lack the willpower to even toggle a manual save option off in order to preserve their own personal feelings about the game being "permadeath," it encourages players to find and invoke any number of rather "sleazy" workarounds in order to force a save should they be interrupted at an "inopportune" time... or it encourages the development of a mod (which is available only to some players on some systems) rather than providing a legit option/choice to all players as to how they go about saving their own game.

 

[Dr. S.]

14 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Going wandering out across Great Bear Island is a risky proposition... the way the auto-save system is setup now means we have to push to get to the next shelter, because out in the open we're not "safe."  If we venture out, then we're making a commitment (of sorts) to that journey.

Being able to save in the middle of such a trek doesn’t change this *at all*. Your survivor doesn’t gain anything at all if the player can save during the trek. 
 

What it does do is force the player to consider whether *they* have the time to complete the trek before they have to leave for work or go to sleep or whatever, and then (if they don’t, or if something unexpected happens outside the game) possibly be required to leave the game paused for hours. I  guess you can twist that into a player “choice” if you like, but in reality it’s pointless and annoying. 

[AdamvR]

I feel I agree with @ManicManiac's thoughts above. With some additions:
The fact, that Wintermute does have a save option makes it clear, that it was a deliberate choice not to add it to the Survival version.
(i.e.: it is already programmed, just not activated)

I believe, that it is one element of the whole experience of TLD, which has been designed with extra care.
There are many games, where you can save the game before a risky situation and load back if things do not go your way. In TLD this would be hitting escape and quitting (provided that you did not also get injured).
I'm happy, that this game does have a different approach to it, and consciously, decidedly so.

I try thinking about it, that "voluntary" saving happens when your character is safe, and only then, and happens automatically for you.
Either when entering a safehouse, or when the circumstances around you are safe enough that you could spend an hour sleeping or just loitering without interruption.

And, when you made a wrong decision, it is also ensured, there is no way back.

This is part of what makes every decision to be a serious one in this game, and that experience is part of what makes TLD what it is.
I try to appreciate it, and the thoughtfulness behind, even when it makes stuff difficult.
(I do understand, that having a "press a button" save option, might feel convenient, and I appreciate the fact that this convencience is not included on purpose.)

... and for answering a phonecall, hitting Esc is pretty straightforward I think, not a workaround, not even specific to TLD.
Losing the character due to the pressure this game tends to put us under is pretty frustrating indeed, I totally agree, so I'm also feeling for the OP.

Edited May 3, 2023 by AdamvR
typo

[ManicManiac]

Okay... I'll expound a little further and then I'm going to leave it at that.
We don't have to agree... that's okay. 
 

1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I find it a little ironic that you talk about the game being "about player choice" when it prevents a very basic accessibility choice to be made by the player... whether to manually save the game or not.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I've been talking about. 🤭
We DO have the choice to save whenever and wherever we want to... it just comes with a consequence (as I've already said).

~~~~~

1 hour ago, Dr. S. said:

Being able to save in the middle of such a trek doesn’t change this *at all*. Your survivor doesn’t gain anything at all if the player can save during the trek.

 I think you may have misinterpreted what I've been talking about. 🤭
We CAN save in the middle of a trek... we can save wherever and whenever we want, it just comes with a consequence (as I've already said).

1 hour ago, Dr. S. said:

force the player to consider whether *they* have the time to complete the trek before they have to leave for work or go to sleep or whatever, and then (if they don’t, or if something unexpected happens outside the game) possibly be required to leave the game paused for hours. I  guess you can twist that into a player “choice” if you like, but in reality it’s pointless and annoying.

I mean...  I think that really comes down to more of a matter of personal priorities and time management.
If there's an actual emergency... then a game that I play for recreation doesn't matter.  I think obviously, the emergency would be more important than saving a game, I think that's just reasonable personal priorities.  
If I know I don't have an hour or two for a session... then I just don't play at that time.     
If I get interrupted and I don't feel like just hitting escape, then I "pass time or nap" for an hour... it saves, and I exit.   

 

~~~~~

As I've said many time in the past, I don't think there is anything here Hinterland to "fix."  
I like the choices Hinterland has made for their game.  I appreciate how the auto-saves and "manual" save mechanisms work.

I don't really have the time or energy to get into protracted arguments about it...  
In fact I don't really have the time or energy for arguments at all.  That's not what I'm here for.

If we don't agree, that's okay.   
I've said my peace and I stand by it.

Edited May 3, 2023 by ManicManiac

[xanna]

1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I understand that, but wouldn't an optional "toggle manual saves off" button in the accessibility menu serve the same function for those that do feel it would lessen their permadeath experience while avoiding unduly frustrating players who, for example, have to deal with more IRL interruptions to their play sessions?

Yes, absolutely, it would. I can't speak to how that would affect the feel of the game for people. For me it would feel different, but presumably others would not feel any different. I imagine some might then miss being able to so directly compare their play to others', eg someone could have a very impressive run but did a lot of crisis avoidance using save scumming. That's not a big thing for me at all, though.

When I first started playing and falling in love with TLD, the fact that I couldn't save was a really cool and attractive feature for me. It said so much about the kind of game TLD is, how to approach it, and what it expects from its players. I definitely liked the game more because of it, I think it's kinda beautiful.