Survival savegames and game settings.

[Leeanda]

I agree with @ManicManiac on this.. 

If it ain't broke,don't  fix it!   Simple as that.  

most of my games are auto save only and I never have a problem with them. 

I can understand that things happen to interfere with playing (how dare they😁) but switching it off isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

The thought does occur though that maybe instead of a Manuel save , the auto save could be set by time as well as the way it is now.  

Set to auto save every X amount of time regularly.. or if there hasn't been a preset save for a certain amount of time.

Anyway ,that's just an afterthought .  🙂

 

[xanna]

4 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Set to auto save every X amount of time regularly.. or if there hasn't been a preset save for a certain amount of time.

Imagine it saving in the middle of a Timbie fight, overwriting that nice comfy safe save waking up in bed... 😩

[Leeanda]

Just now, xanna said:

Imagine it saving in the middle of a Timbie fight, overwriting that nice comfy safe save waking up in bed... 😩

It autosaves when you get attacked anyway.. unless you mean before you get a nip?

[Leeanda]

I was more just thinking of those times when you're out travelling long distance or spending some time gathering resources.   I was just a random thought.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Leeanda

[UpUpAway95]

27 minutes ago, xanna said:

Yes, absolutely, it would. I can't speak to how that would affect the feel of the game for people. For me it would feel different, but presumably others would not feel any different. I imagine some might then miss being able to so directly compare their play to others', eg someone could have a very impressive run but did a lot of crisis avoidance using save scumming. That's not a big thing for me at all, though.

When I first started playing and falling in love with TLD, the fact that I couldn't save was a really cool and attractive feature for me. It said so much about the kind of game TLD is, how to approach it, and what it expects from its players. I definitely liked the game more because of it, I think it's kinda beautiful.

So... you need to force other people to play permadeath so that it feels like a permadeath game to you.

At least then, make the game exitsave so that people cannot circumvent negative progress that doesn't currently trigger an autosave by forfeiting a sleep save and just exiting the game.  This would solve the OP's dilemma of what to do when the phone rings since exiting the game would automatically save his progress nomatter where he is on the map.  Of course, they would have to implement some sort of detection or "backup" so that the whole file save would not be forfeit should the player legitimately get "stuck" in the terrain.  Also, I'd recommend the game not  autosave every time the player enters a load screen because I don't like the number of overwrites the system does in place like Milton when you're in and out of buildings every few seconds.

Edited May 3, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[Dr. S.]

The really ironic thing of course is that you can save at will in Wintermute without consequences. 

[Dr. S.]

24 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

If it ain't broke,don't  fix it!   Simple as that.  

Of course it is broken, that’s the point. 
 

I guess I’m coming from the perspective of someone who played nethack for many years, which is a permadeath game that allows saving at any point without adverse consequences for gameplay, so this choice by Hinterland has always struck me as very strange and misguided. 

[AdamvR]

11 minutes ago, Dr. S. said:

The really ironic thing of course is that you can save at will in Wintermute without consequences. 

I do not think it is irony, but carefully designed different experiences for the two different game modes.

Wintermute is a story, You are kind of told what to do, and you do it.
It is more like a film, that you play the protagonist of, and like a film you can pause (save) and continue at any time.

Survival, as the name suggests, is about surviving and making decisions that matter in doing so.
And at important moments of this struggle the game saves it for you: when you reach safety, and when you get hurt.

I believe that is also why some people prefer the Story, others Survival, and some find both appealing.
Like two different games set in the same universe. (and they actually are today: two different games I mean).

Edited May 3, 2023 by AdamvR
typo

[UpUpAway95]

5 minutes ago, AdamvR said:

I do not think it is irony, but carefully designed different experiences for the two different game modes.

Wintermute is a story, You are kind of told what to do, and you do it.
It is more like a film, that you play the protagonist of, and like a film you can pause (save) and continue at any time.

Survival, as the name suggests, is about surviving and making decisions that matter in doing so.

I believe that is also why some people prefer the Story, others Survival, and some find both appealing.
Like two different games set in the same universe. (and they actually are today: two different games I mean).

Don't you think it a little ironic that one of the recommended workarounds suggested was to deliberately hurt yourself to trigger an autosave... in a SURVIVAL game.  Sure seems ironic to me.

[AdamvR]

2 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Don't you think it a little ironic that one of the recommended workarounds suggested was to deliberately hurt yourself to trigger an autosave... in a SURVIVAL game.  Sure seems ironic to me.

No, I don't think it is irony, and I have not suggested that, and would never do that.
I'd walk to safety first.

Edited May 3, 2023 by AdamvR

[Dr. S.]

6 minutes ago, AdamvR said:

Survival, as the name suggests, is about surviving and making decisions that matter in doing so.

Oh, I agree that the way saving works in Wintermute is a design decision, I just think it’s a bad one. 

[UpUpAway95]

2 minutes ago, AdamvR said:

No I don't think it is irony, and I have not suggested that, and would never do that.
I'd walk to safety first.

However, where I used the term ironic was in response to a poster who was, in effect, suggesting that.  So, let's not get hung up on the term.  It IS counter to the game's philosophy of survival to hurt oneself in order to save the game (or as was also suggested, to throw down a bedroll anywhere and sleep for an hour).  The system compels/encourages players to make decisions that are not necessarily in the best interests of their character's survival just to be able to save the game.  That makes it a "bad mechanic."

Edited May 3, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[AdamvR]

1 minute ago, UpUpAway95 said:

(or as was also suggested, to throw down a bedroll anywhere and sleep for an hour).

If my character is safe, I can also rest. I think that is the philosophy behind.
If I can prove that I am safe, by being able to sleep one hour without mauled to or frozen to death, I can rest.
I have zero problem with this solution.

But I understand if you find this frustrating, I feel sorry for you, but do not agree with your solution to the perceived source of frustration.
Peace:)

[Leeanda]

15 minutes ago, Dr. S. said:

Of course it is broken, that’s the point. 
 

I guess I’m coming from the perspective of someone who played nethack for many years, which is a permadeath game that allows saving at any point without adverse consequences for gameplay, so this choice by Hinterland has always struck me as very strange and misguided. 

I get that it can be frustrating sometimes but that doesn't mean it's broken.     I'd rather they sort out the bugs, and for console players the long loading times.   I've always had autosave games and never had an issue with it.  I suppose it's just player preference ,same as anything else. 

 

 

[ManicManiac]

  Just because a player doesn't like it, doesn't make it a "bad mechanic."

[ManicManiac]

21 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Don't you think it a little ironic that one of the recommended workarounds suggested was to deliberately hurt yourself to trigger an autosave

 I didn't make any recommendations... or refer to them as work arounds.
I merely listed the options that are already available to us; nothing more.

Trying to take me out of context and put words in my mouth is a bit out of order, I think.

How about we let things be civil, rather than trying to make things personal...  

[Admin]

We understand that people will disagree, and constructive criticism is always welcome, but please remember to keep comments respectful. 

[xanna]

32 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

So... you need to force other people to play permadeath so that it feels like a permadeath game to you.

I don't need anything, and I am not and could not force other players to do anything. I'm just describing what it feels like to me, that's literally all I did. I don't even hold an opinion on this, and when you described a setting for the save feature, I agreed with you.

Why are you fighting me? I've not even given a position 😄

[xanna]

39 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

I was more just thinking of those times when you're out travelling long distance or spending some time gathering resources.   I was just a random thought.

Oh absolutely. I was just entertaining myself with the thought. (I intended it to be a fun comment, not a serious one 😊 )

[AdamvR]

Maybe just one thought to add, an option that has not been mentioned before I think:

Just leaving without saving might make me lose some minutes of "progress", and that loss is definitely a bad feeling, I can attest to that.
(Can even be frustrating, as I had to redo the same things multiple times, when the game repeatedly quit on a "Failed to load..." error trying to enter Angler's Den)
But it really is not the end of the world, (I just moved elsewhere, until that bug is fixed.)

[UpUpAway95]

4 hours ago, xanna said:

I don't need anything, and I am not and could not force other players to do anything. I'm just describing what it feels like to me, that's literally all I did. I don't even hold an opinion on this, and when you described a setting for the save feature, I agreed with you.

Why are you fighting me? I've not even given a position 😄

I'm not fighting you... but there are two sides to consider here and the clientele of the game has changed since HL made their decision.  People now play this game on mobile devices... which means they could conceivably be playing, for example, on the bus while going to work... meaning that they may not be able to get to a point where the game will autosave their progress before having to exit the game so they don't miss their stop.

Having a "manual saves off" toggle that you set before you start your character and cannot change midstream (because it is in the accessibility menu) should still serve to make that run play no differently than it currently does for you (IMO), but it would make the game potentially far more convenient to play for others.

Another option is to put in an exit save - which would do two things:  1) Allow progress to be saved to the exact point of exiting game; and 2) Prevent people from "undoing" mistakes they make in game that don't currently trigger an autosave (for example, failing a mend with one's last piece of cloth after just waking up... where the save scum is extremely tempting because it does not cost much in forward progress).  Right now, because there is no exit save, I see this mechanic as being broken... it doesn't even really do what it is supposed to because there are so many ways to get around it... some of which are contrary to the idea of surviving.

Minecraft Bedrock Edition uses this method - the game overwrites your save file whenever you leave it and starts you exactly where you left off.  The downside, of course, is that if a bug occurs (say, the player gets stuck in terrain), that bug cannot be worked around unless there is a backup of some time.  To get around that, I would suggest the exit save not overwrite the last sleep save so that if there is a bug when exiting the game, the player can still opt to lose the progress made from the last sleep save in order to prevent losing the entire character.  I would still like to see the game not save when entering a building simply because some areas of the map have a lot of buildings and this generates a very frequent overwrite of the save file.  Permadeath would be still be permadeath by virtue of both the sleep save and the exitsave being deleted shoudl the character die.

Edited May 3, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[xanna]

14 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I'm not fighting you...

Well if it wasn't fighting, it was just odd and rude, and more to my point, misdirected.
 

17 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

but there are two sides to consider here and the clientele of the game has changed since HL made their decision.

Why are you telling me, since I didn't comment on any of that?

[ManicManiac]

42 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

People now play this game on mobile devices... which means they could conceivably be playing, for example, on the bus while going to work... meaning that they may not be able to get to a point where the game will autosave their progress before having to exit the game so they don't miss their stop.

And I think, those hypothetical issues you bring up are really just that individual's own personal issue... not a game issue.
I'll reiterate what I mentioned before:

6 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

I think that really comes down to more of a matter of personal priorities and time management.
...
If I know I don't have an hour or two for a session... then I just don't play at that time.    
If I get interrupted and I don't feel like just hitting escape, then I "pass time or nap" for an hour... it saves, and I exit.  
...
As I've said many time in the past, I don't think there is anything here Hinterland to "fix."  
I like the choices Hinterland has made for their game.  I appreciate how the auto-saves and "manual" save mechanisms work.

...I don't think Hinterland should have to compensate for someone else's time management choices.  

Since the conversation seems to be going round in circles a bit... I'm moving on.

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by ManicManiac

[Raphael van Lierop]

It's an interesting discussion, and it should continue (civilly, as @Admin said), but just to be clear, we have no intention of adding a Save Anywhere option to Survival Mode, and making additional or other changes to the Save system is also not something we currently have any plans to do. 

And to the OP specifically -- *nothing* is easy about developing or modifying Save systems. It's one of the most complex things we have to deal with in the game, especially due to the need to preserve save compatibility with each update. So please don't tell us it's easy, or to "just do it". I assume you wouldn't go to a restaurant and tell the chef you don't like the food, to change it (because it's easy), and then get back into the kitchen to "just do it". Have a little respect for the team that makes this game.

[UpUpAway95]

8 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

And I think, those hypothetical issues you bring up are really just that individual's own personal issue... not a game issue.
I'll reiterate what I mentioned before:

...I don't think Hinterland should have to compensate for someone else's time management choices.  

Since the conversation seems to be going round in circles a bit... I'm moving on.

 

It is a game issue - a QOL fix that would not (again, respectfully IMO) necessarily affect anyone's current desire to play without manual save if it were an option that could be toggled on or off.  An exit save, IMO, would only improve things as well... Here's another hypothetical, brought up originally up thread... player sees bear charging and exits the game to circumvent being attacked.  It can be done now... an exit save would close that loop hole.  Anyway, I've said all I'm going to as well.

OP - I sympathize with your circumstances and agree that the lack of a means to save progress right to the point of exiting the game regardless of where you are on the map makes this game less enjoyable to play (again, respectfully, just my opinion).