Survival savegames and game settings.

[Dr. S.]

Just want to say that having auto-save on exit would be fantastic. It’s easily #1 on my wishlist for QOL improvements. 

[conanjaguar]

So, to summarize:

• OP wants a “sleeker” save system in TLD.
• We already have a save system in the game that reinforces TLD’s core design philosophy: that every choice you make will have consequences.
• This system is open to abuse.
• So, if this system is open to abuse, what will happen if we can just click a button to save, take a shot at a moose/bear/wolf, and reload the game if we miss? Such a “sleek” system is naturally more open to abuse.

[Dr. S.]

The sleekest system is to have no in- game saves at all and only have auto save on quit (for survival mode). This is not subject to the abuse you describe. It’s how nethack handles saves. 
 

The potential downside is that lots of progress can be lost if there’s a crash or other issue, but the current system has the same vulnerability. 
 

I honestly don’t understand the assertion that the current system is somehow about consequences. If that were really true, why does the game give “free” saves when entering a building? How does that reinforce the idea that actions have consequences?

Edited May 3, 2023 by Dr. S.

[xanna]

20 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

The system compels/encourages players to make decisions that are not necessarily in the best interests of their character's survival just to be able to save the game.

This is a v good point, IMO. I don't think I do behave that way myself, it's more about getting to one of those save point safe places and then deciding that I should stop for the night. This is of course a very different scenario than many play in, where they are many times more likely to have to stop suddenly than I am. That might well produce differences in playstyle, real life pushing up against the game and thereby changing the shape of some in-game decisions.

[hozz1235]

14 hours ago, Dr. S. said:

If that were really true, why does the game give “free” saves when entering a building?

I seem to recall this was added early in development to prevent players from:  saving before entering a building, enter building (which generates random loot) and if they don't like what loot was generated, they could re-load and try again.

[conanjaguar]

14 hours ago, Dr. S. said:

The sleekest system is to have no in- game saves at all and only have auto save on quit (for survival mode). This is not subject to the abuse you describe. It’s how nethack handles saves. 

That’s not such a bad idea… although it *might* be subject to some abuse, it’s generally too cumbersome to restart the game again for all but the most committed or desperate.

(Especially if it kicks you back to the Home Screen .)

[Dr. S.]

This discussion reminds me of my very first sessions in TLD. I bought the game after the Steadfast Ranger update and I started with survival mode. I distinctly remember the first time I tried to end a session. I hit esc and the quit, expecting the game to auto save. I was very surprised to see the “Really quit?” dialog with the warning that I would lose any progress. 
 

I went into the options to look for the hot key for saving, and found it. But it didn’t work! So I went back to options and changed the binding (gotta try something, right?), and it still didn’t work. After playing around a bit more and growing increasingly frustrated, I eventually abandoned the run. Then I went to Safari and googled “how to save in the long dark”, where I learned about the save system in survival mode, and the fact that the save command is only for Wintermute. 

Of course noobs have a lot to learn, but this seems like an obvious objectively bad user experience. 

[AdamvR]

17 hours ago, Dr. S. said:

The sleekest system is to have no in- game saves at all and only have auto save on quit (for survival mode). This is not subject to the abuse you describe. It’s how nethack handles saves. 
 

The potential downside is that lots of progress can be lost if there’s a crash or other issue, but the current system has the same vulnerability. 

I have also been toying with this idea, once suggested above, as it could in theory work with (almost) no option for abuse..., but not having an option to exiting without saving the progress would be extremely dangerous. I hardly ever use the current option to Esc and Quit, but from experience you can get stuck in points in this game, especially in relatively new areas, before those points are all found, reported and ironed out. Not once have I found myself in this situation, and losing my character due to a terrain fault would be an absolute no go for me.
And if I can quit both with and without saving, then we are back to the point that @hozz1235 has mentioned:

2 hours ago, hozz1235 said:

I seem to recall this was added early in development to prevent players from:  saving before entering a building, enter building (which generates random loot) and if they don't like what loot was generated, they could re-load and try again.

...so with the above consideration, I concluded that the current system is fine as is.

I've learnt over the years, that HL does think and weigh through the various options to find the best solution..., so if a decision might not make sense to me at first, I might be missing a point, and look further.

 

1 hour ago, Dr. S. said:

I went into the options to look for the hot key for saving, and found it. But it didn’t work! So I went back to options and changed the binding (gotta try something, right?), and it still didn’t work. After playing around a bit more and growing increasingly frustrated, I eventually abandoned the run. Then I went to Safari and googled “how to save in the long dark”, where I learned about the save system in survival mode, and the fact that the save command is only for Wintermute. 

Of course noobs have a lot to learn, but this seems like an obvious objectively bad user experience.

You are not alone with this experience:) I had gone through probably the exact same steps...
I was also looking for how the hell do I dig up snow for melting, wondered why the foxes (!) ran away when I approached Mystery Lake, been scared to walk on the lake first, or learnt how not to give up after my first box of matches ran out (as I can find more... - who would have thought?), and quite a few (in retrospect quite embarassing/funny) ways how to fall into the long dark...
I'm calling this learning the game mechanics, just like learning the rules of chess or a card game...
And with time learnt to see and appreciate the deep thoughts behind the development decisions.

Edited May 4, 2023 by AdamvR

[ManicManiac]

1 hour ago, Dr. S. said:

objectively bad user experience

If it were really objective... then everyone would share your sentiment.
Your assertion that it's a "bad user experience" is subjective... not objective.

I certainly respect your point of view and that you don't like save system as it exists today... but claiming your opinion is an objective truth (I think) is rather spurious.

*I'm not going to be discussing the topic, because I've said my peace already... but this bit, I felt warranted some clarification. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by ManicManiac

[Admin]

Closing this thread. We've heard some valuable input from multiple perspectives, but we've also received a number of reports on this thread. 

This forum is a welcome place for everyone to share opinions and ideas about the game. We also understand that feelings of frustration often mean that people care a great deal about the game -- that's why we're all here. However, there is a way to share your thoughts that is respectful and allows for disagreement without resorting to personal comments.

We encourage everyone to read the Forum Rules and Guidelines, and approach every interaction with respect.