Temporarily Removing the Cougar

[Leeanda]

4 minutes ago, Ronger97 said:

I never said that they don't know what art is? I specifically said the OG cougar, in my own opinion, isn't very artistic because if fails to inspire the emotions in me that are trying to be conveyed. If art is different for you? That's entirely okay! Art is entirely subjective. 

As for the insulting and confrontational bit.. Im sorry? I don't know what else to say. That's just my tone of writing. You could LOOSELY say its confrontational, but I didn't intend it to be hostile. The entire purpose of these forums is to allow communication and discussion right? In order to do both, you have to say things that are antagonistic to some degree, as being an antagonist is to challenge the opposing party. And Antagonists don't have to be villains at all! Rivals make wonderful antagonists too, challenging the protagonist while still being on the same side and wanting the best for said party. 

And of course I never meant to insult. I won't attack any Hinterland staff for personal reasons. The only thing I comment on is specifically the art created and the product delivered, and as a member of this community, I think I have a right to do both? 

 

Yes you have the same rights as everyone else..  and yes it's ok to disagree and have your own opinions.. 

But also yes it did sound confrontational . And as I am not the only one who noticed it then obviously it might be better if you had phrased things better.. 

Just please bear in mind how you say things.. constructive criticism is not the same as just criticism..

 

[Balamute]

On the Cougar,

I won't criticize it specifically, just simply say I see no reason to have the current implementation 'on' other than additional loot. The only other benefit to the gameplay seems to be additional torn clothes, which I can live without.

But... the idea itself is brilliant: a threat outside the usual ecosystem, which forces the player to change behavior.

I would suggest some ideas on a possible new implementation, what I personally would love to see to have, especially in the late game. Hope the devs read the following rant to the end and consider some points. While I typed the message, at least several ideas were expressed by others. Glad to have people of similar mind around.

First, we already have an ecosystem, granted an imperfect one (since it gets boring in the late game). Now, we have an addition of a super-predator, the Cougar.  Why it attacks the player specifically? Really no reason, since about the only cases when animals attack humans are: extreme hunger, rabies, defense of territory (in our new-ecosystem-to-be). There are easier and tastier kills for it.

Now let the Cougar  have these qualities:

• There are a number of Cougars in the world (3-5 animals) with a very long re-spawn time;
• All cougars are very aggressive toward any other wildlife, they hunt down everything they see so that the supply of meat in an area/region is depleted fast;
• Cougar can roam the region almost everywhere where there is any wildlife or a passage, but especially they like to block this or that important route to another area. No two cougars in the same region.
• once an area/region is depleted of animals (and/or free-lying player food stockpiles), the cougar simply migrates to another region and continues the slaughter/theft there
• if there is other prey, the cougar will actively avoid the player, especially if the player has a visible weapon
• all animals killed by Cougar have very little or zero meat/loot and will re-spawn only after the cougar leaves the region and very slowly at that.
• the cougar can be spotted and hunted but when it avoids the player, it is very alert, agile and constantly changes course to avoid being shot at; if it hunts the player, it is still possible to shoot it as it approaches, but it is really hard (a very fast,  zigzagging target, maybe even deliberate use of obstacles as a shield from bullets)
• if there is no prey in the region, and the player is in the region, the Cougar tries to kill the Player or failing that it will steal edible resources stored in the open.
• Cougar is immune to blizzard and can attack any time. It does not bleed to death, only temporarily to leave visible trail.
• Cougar kills everything as it eats through a region, including Bear and Moose, but it can be injured during these two kills. Yes, this is a mutant sabre-tooth cougar, it can take on a bear.
• the player always smells for a Cougar (a walking piece of meat!) so it is can potentially be sniped only at extreme distances
• if a player hauls edible loot (from a carcass or from a fishing hut) and is encumbered, there is a special encounter: cougar tries to jump from behind, and if successful, there is no struggle, limited injuries and damage to the clothes, but the player is knocked out cold for a time (at least an hour) and all raw meat/fish is stolen from him.
• if the player suddenly 'disappears' into a building or a hunters blind, or is inaccessible in any other way (climbs a tree/rock/bridge/etc) the Cougar will flee with every possible anti-bullet maneuver

So in the described case, the player is forced to hunt down the Cougar or be deprived of food. But it should be a fair fight between two super-predators with marginally equal chances. It should not be a scripted event (honestly, scripted events are generally boring in the extreme). In other words, the Cougar is a very serious threat, but (normally) not to the player directly , rather to the very ecosystem which supports the player.

As to the 'struggle' mechanics... in the described hypothetical 'new' system it should also be changed. For example, like this: first 'normal' 'cougar struggles' (goal is to inflict as much damage to the thing as possible) and than an attempted shot (goal is to do an addition damage, but never a kill -- too easy). In the aftermath of an encounter we should have a weakened, wounded, version of Cougar (never a dead version though!) which tries to flee the region (option: reach its lair) and a wounded player tries to hunt it down and put at least one bullet into it. In this state the cougar is much slower and weaker, it is less agile and is much easier to shoot at. Also there are 3 ways to get a "wounded cougar": as a result of 'struggle' with a subsequent 'after-struggle' free shot (controls amount of damage done), OR with a lucky head-shot before 'struggle' , OR as a result of an encounter of cougar with a bear or a moose. In the latter two cases the cougar will try to flee the player without 'struggle'. In the third case, it tries to hide in a lair and not necessary to flee the region.

Hope some of the above is useful... Do make this thing fun, it just asks for it!

BTW please do something with the icons (cougar threat and "afterlifes"), put them away somewhere in the corner smallish-wise or something. Or still better, make them switchable.

 

Edited June 28 by Balamute

[UTC-10]

There are no solutions only trade offs.  

All Hinterland can do is try to find the arrangement of trade offs that provide the [subjective] best (or at least an acceptable) experience for the largest number of players.  

As a predator EVENT across all difficulties including Pilgrim, the Cougar would never be a part of my game but that's just me.  The payoff, such as it would be, is just not sufficient, the risk is too great, and I am not losing this particular game at least until I am standing on the Perseverance Mills dock watching the last ship to leave Great Bear disappear into the distance (the On the Beach ending). 

 

[Ronger97]

5 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Yes you have the same rights as everyone else..  and yes it's ok to disagree and have your own opinions.. 

But also yes it did sound confrontational . And as I am not the only one who noticed it then obviously it might be better if you had phrased things better.. 

Just please bear in mind how you say things.. constructive criticism is not the same as just criticism..

 

Yes, and I asked how I can present the same points in a less confrontational manner. I am hoping for an answer to this question. 

Though why bring up criticism vs constructive criticism? No one's yet had anything to say on my points, merely on my tone which I own up too. 

I can't really add constructive criticisms to the original post since the things I was criticizing were inconsistencies in Ralph's statements. How he says in one area to want one thing, yet his words and actions in another area speak to another thing. I can't constructively criticise that as the solution to the problem is exactly what I offered: to have Ralph himself speak to clarify the contradictions in his own words. 

Im honestly getting very nervous and anxious now, I feel like you're attacking me for things I can't control

[Leeanda]

1 hour ago, Ronger97 said:

Yes, and I asked how I can present the same points in a less confrontational manner. I am hoping for an answer to this question. 

Though why bring up criticism vs constructive criticism? No one's yet had anything to say on my points, merely on my tone which I own up too. 

I can't really add constructive criticisms to the original post since the things I was criticizing were inconsistencies in Ralph's statements. How he says in one area to want one thing, yet his words and actions in another area speak to another thing. I can't constructively criticise that as the solution to the problem is exactly what I offered: to have Ralph himself speak to clarify the contradictions in his own words. 

Im honestly getting very nervous and anxious now, I feel like you're attacking me for things I can't control

Thank you for adding the edit to your post..  😊

This will be the end of the matter.

[Enigmaecho]

20 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

 

Hello players,

Over the past few days, we've heard your feedback loud and clear: you aren't happy with our implementation of the Cougar. 

I want to make it clear that the design we selected for the Cougar was my decision, and we shipped it as intended (apart from the bugs, of course). But there are a lot of different ways to deliver on an intention, and so I've decided that the fairest thing for our players, as well as for the dev team, is to pull the Cougar out of the build until we can do some revisions and come up with something we are happier with. 

We don't want to simply fix bugs and react to player sentiment. The changes will go beyond just fixing the bugs in the current version. That doesn't mean we will deliver 100% the version that everyone is hoping for. At the end of the day, we have a clear vision for THE LONG DARK and we'll continue to work towards that vision.

For now, we're taking the Cougar back, and will work on it until it's ready. I can't say for sure how long that will take, but it'll likely be more than a couple of weeks. We'll deliver a re-envisioned Cougar before we deliver Part Six of TALES.

Thanks to everyone who shared constructive feedback and impressions over the past few days. Your input is useful and highly valued. I hope you enjoy the other features in Part Five, until we bring the Cougar back to you.

- Raphael

***
 

Details from the Dev Team:

 

* As a result of this, you will find the Cougar is no longer available in the game starting tomorrow (Friday) on Steam, and early next week on the consoles.

* If you already have existing raw materials collected from killing Cougars, those items will remain in your inventory. You will still be able to craft the Cougar-related items, but you will not be able to find more Cougar materials to repair them. If you have unlocked the Cougar Feat, you will still be able to use it.

If you have any questions or run into issues, please report them to our Support Portal.

 

As a side question, it’s been asked before I think but is it possible to allow badge progression for custom? My thought was wanting to maintain a certain difficulty to them but you can earn them all on the lower settings anyway so just wondering 

[Glacia]

Amazing to see this.

Thank you for making the right desition.

[El Carlos]

ok, but what about scurvy? It seems this disapeared from my game as nothing now shows amount of vit C.

[UpUpAway95]

I think it was fine and would just remove the HUD-based warnings and have actual signs start appearing - like tracks, kills that can be identified as cougar kills (perhaps by having them partially buried and covered in pine needles or bows), and sounds.  I would also like to be able to catch glimpses of them, but I like that they were virtually not "huntable." 

I wouldn't mind if any reward for killing them was removed from the game, while making so they could be fought off during an attack with a knife or hatchet (sharp implement only) that would make them eventually bleed out and die.  Alternatively to removing the cougar knife and hat, I would have them choose a very hidden place to die that is a far distance from where their attack was repelled - making it difficult for the player to find their carcass.

I think the reward for fighting off a cougar attack should be survival itself.  I would keep the attacks as a surprise that could instantly end a run, but also change the "cheat death" mechanic to apply only if the cause of a death was a cougar attack and make the permanent disability relative to something that could be directly from such an attack.  That means that a player could survive up to 3 cougar attacks and continue in their save - just by accepting an increasing disadvantage in that save.  This way, the game's permadeath mechanic would be as it always was for any other cause of death.

Of course, this is just my suggestions and opinions - not looking for any arguments - and the last I will say anything on the matter.  HL - keep up the good work.

[StayStill01]

I know the survival mode is to be alone in the world. But still, I think Hinterland missed the opportunity to use the cougar as a 'presence' in that world. I would have made the cougar the quasi-nemesis of the player. He would stalk the player, eat his food left outside, hide his some of his gear when sleeping outside, and even fight a weak player for food. But he would also bring him a ptarmigan at a distance, maybe even leave a fresh deer kill as a gift to a starving player, or scare timberwolves on occasions. A chaotic character, neither friend nor foe. It would be wise not to trust him. Perhaps even kill it. But the player very much don't want to; he and the cougar understand that one will be completely alone once the other dies.

[Luca Loquax]

We are SO lucky to have people like Raph and Devs who care enough to be this responsive to we, the player.

This is one more reason that TLD is something very special.  Not just a game; a community.

Thank U Raph and Devs! 

[TFA303]

6 hours ago, Balamute said:

On the Cougar,

 

 

• All cougars are very aggressive toward any other wildlife, they hunt down everything they see so that the supply of meat in an area/region is depleted fast;

 

This would be a brilliant addition - the cougar affects the player through the ecosystem, not just by attacking. 

[RossBondReturns]

56 minutes ago, Sunwolf said:

You know, had you implemented mod tools like you said you were going to back in 2017 this would be a non-issue.

Just sayin'. 😇

They said they would support modding when the game was done...not in 2017.

[Raphael van Lierop]

2 hours ago, Sunwolf said:

You know, had you implemented mod tools like you said you were going to back in 2017 this would be a non-issue.

Just sayin'. 😇

I'm trying to find a reading of this comment where it's not incredibly insulting to the dev team, and I'm having a hard time.

Can you help me out?

[Kayosiv]

1 hour ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I'm trying to find a reading of this comment where it's not incredibly insulting to the dev team, and I'm having a hard time.

Can you help me out?

The cute angel smiley emoji is an indication that it is a light hearted jab rather than a serious insult. You should read that message as a player who wishes there were mod tools and is excited for the day they might show up, not as someone who is mad at the developers or feels they didn't get something that was promised.

[Even Dark]

I was just about to get started and he was gone :). 
The idea with the cougar itself is very good but not if it is the cougar. 
Take the old white bear out of the story to drive players away. 
The mechanics are there, he is visible, fast, shows up and cannot be killed. 
The loot wouldn't be interesting either because it's a bear.

Maybe the Cougar should have been designed so that there is always one in the world. 
You then have to look for it based on traces, dead deer corpses to find him. and usually it's somewhere you haven't been for a long time. 
That motivates you to explore all regions, and travel over to world a lot. so a unique hunt then.
 

Edited June 29 by Even Dark

[UTC-10]

@Raphael van Lierop I cannot be sure about the details but when you and the devs go over the Cougar mechanic and programming could you please check to make sure that the grace period (which varies by difficulty mode) before a character attracts the Cougar's attention actually work in the game. 

After the update where I used resume not load and had the Cougar active, I noticed that I in my Pilgrim game seemed to attract its attention within what looked like a ten day period or maybe better to say I had been in my current region for four or five days and I got notified that the Cougar would arrive in four days.  Every day that passed decremented the counter by one day. 

From Zaknafein's video I thought I would have been safe for up to seventy (70) days but here I was looking at more like ten (10) days.  I have now disabled the Cougar mechanic (before it got temporarily removed) but thought you might want to know.  

[Mroz4k]

Hello!

Sadly, I do not have any personal experience with cougar - i only just bought the expansion on the same day it was rolled back. Pity, but oh well! Looking forward to it when it is reworked!

I think part of why there was strong negative feedback might come from how the cougar worked, combined with bugs. I have read the replies on web and seems a lot of people had the cougar active in their games even though they opted to remove it - so rollback makes a lot of sense!

Ive seen it on vids, looked great to me, but I can agree with others on the topic of the UI warnings being a bit too forceful. I also can appreciate what cougar was meant to be, basically a deterrent to hibernation. I also truly agree with those who said that while it is meant to be a detterent, many would hunt cougar anyway because of the unique items it yields.

I will summarize what I have read here and on forums elsewhere (Steam, and web)

Quote

Summary:
#1: Cougar is great as is, I like it! Would be happy with no changes.
#2: Cougar is great as is, but the UI warnings are immersion-breaking / forced / not TLD-like
#3: Cougar struggle is great, but I want to be able to prevent it from happening with skill.
#4: I wish cougar was an animal that is hard to hunt, deadly, and un-cheesable.
#5: I like cougar as a mechanic, but the rewards it presents make it desirable to hunt, so remove those.
#6: I am scared of cougar in any way and will not like it in any way (minority)
#DEV: Cougar is meant to be highly-lethal deterrent and should be avoided, rather than hunted. 
(I hope I summed it up well enough. If I missed any, please tag me and say which, the more, the better!)

Here is what I think could work if implemented well: It is quite long, so I put it under spoiler.

Spoiler

Satisfying all of the above is seemingly impossible, because some of them stand against each other. But, I think there is a solution - if we look at cougar the same way as wolves and timberwolves - both are essentially the same, but solitary wolves are just animals within the game, while timberwolves are more of an "event".

If Cougar was both an "event" with unavoidable struggle, but also secondarily as an animal that can be hunted, it would satisfy all these stances, in my opinion. I will explain why later.

Here is my suggestion: 
Two different version of cougar. One is the "struggle cougar" - as is, with UI changes that make it less immersion-breaking. Basically an apex predator that is very lethal and strikes on those that hibernate too much, but can be avoided by taking preemptive actions to leave the region for a while.

Second a "cougar animal" - this would have to be very lethal animal that would not be easy to ambush, and that would not be cheesyable. My idea is to tie the existence of "huntable cougar" into the mechanic with the cougar den. I would suggest that upon attacking or destroying the cougar den, the cougar animal would be spawned within the region, and would act similarly to how the bear would stalk the player in Challenge mode "The Hunted: Part two". This means player can attempt to hunt it, or escape it, if successfuly escaping it, the game would treat it as it would now with the destroyed den. 

Upon damaging or destroying the nest, the cougar would start stalking the player, and once it is close enough, it would charge, with speed greater than charging bear, and once around 3m away from player, would "pounce" which would trigger the cougar struggle. This would make cougar huntable, as well as add a degree of danger to handling of the cougar den, and would not invalidate the "struggle cougar" mechanic in any way.  Right now, you could prepare for cougar attack by preparing the area to "fight" it close to a location where one could hide to recover from the failed attempt. This option would be significantly harder if one attempts to "hunt" the cougar because you would be hunting it in remote region.

Another avenue would be to design a specialized, small "region" where the den would be, and that would make it impossible to cheese the cougar that would be spawned by destroying the den. I would suggest not doing it this way, as it would make all cougar hunting attempts similar.

_______________________________
Would this satisfy everyone? I believe so. #6 would be happy if it can be turned off. I think #5 would be satisfied with the cougar "rewards" if it is both huntable animal, and a struggle that cannot be avoided, as to reach the rewards, there would simply be "two ways" to do it. #4 would be satisfied because they can go hunt cougar on an offensive strike and dont need to rely on getting shredded to be able to fight it. I believe that #3 would be alright with the struggle, being "unavoidable", as long as there are different ways to obtain the cougar rewards that relies on "skill". #2 wants UI changes, if the UI icons are less intrusive, they would be happy with that change. Question is, if the cougar was also a huntable animal, if it would be alright with the people that currently fall into the cathegories of #2, #1 and the Dev team, of course. I think it should, honestly - because if it requires interaction with the den to trigger it, it would also be something that is "optional" to trigger.

Biggest hurdle in this idea of mine would be to design the "huntable" cougar animal to be sufficiently challenging and cheese-proof.

Thanks for reading! Sorry that it was so long, I tried to shorten it while remaining detailed enough. 

[ManicManiac]

@Kayosiv

Yes, I know that they can help provide context... but a cutesy emoji is does not give a free pass for folks to be rude/disrespectful.  It's very much the same with the phrase, "With all due respect..." doesn't mean folks get to be disrespectful just because they add a "qualifier."

Now, rather than go back and forth, starting a sidebar... let's let it alone now.

[[[ some comments have been removed ]]] 

Edited Saturday at 07:17 PM by ManicManiac

[Amir]

While I was playing today, the cougar entered the region... it was my first encounter. I was very low on hp and trying to get to shelter. I had no idea when it was gonna attack me and I was so nervous because I didn't want to die on my misery run. 

First of all, the music which builds up to the attack is amazing. My heart was pounding, there was heavy fog and I kept looking around while trying to get to shelter... then I remembered, the cougar can't be seen, so there was actually no point in looking around! 

My point being, I think the player should be able to catch glimpses of the cougar when it's close to them and about to attack... This way the player has to keep looking around all the time. Once they see the cougar, they would have 1 or 2 minutes to get to shelter...

It was just a thought, I'm sure you'll do a great job.

[rush247]

Has it actually been removed yet or do we essentially have until sometime after Canada Day to experience the cougar as is?  I've been playing offline for the past couple days so that's why I'm asking.

Edited Saturday at 09:24 PM by rush247

[ThePancakeLady]

24 minutes ago, rush247 said:

Has it actually been removed yet or do we essentially have until sometime after Canada Day to experience the cougar as is?  I've been playing offline for the past couple days so that's why I'm asking.

It was pulled much earlier today on Steam, but it may depend on what platform people are on whether the update came through for them or not yet.

[ManicManiac]

Can confirm...  I'd not even opened Steam until this afternoon to finally let the update and hotfix install.
[[[ STEAM : no Cougar ]]]

Edited Saturday at 10:29 PM by ManicManiac

[Leeanda]

I got the update yesterday but I still had the option for the cougar on my main run today. Xbox .

[Africanboi7]

9 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

I got the update yesterday but I still had the option for the cougar on my main run today. Xbox .

I think yesterday's update was 2.29, which I think was the update before they removed the cougar.