Sleep or rest without a bedroll, when inside buildings or under a shelter.

[pocho]

50 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

End discussion.

Friend, please stop giving people ultimatums to end the discussion.  It's rude and unnecessary.  If you don't like the discussion, don't respond.

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, pocho said:

Friend, please stop giving people ultimatums to end the discussion.  It's rude and unnecessary.  If you don't like the discussion, don't respond.

OK, I'll stop wording it quite that way.  It's not meant as an ultimatum to other people, but an indication that I don't want to go on repeating myself.

In this discussion, the OP has asserted several times that the player doesn't have options that they do have.  That's my point - The alternatives are already there.  The OP just doesn't like those options because, in one way or a different way, it always comes back to the existing alternatives being too difficult.  So, at the bottom line, the purpose of this is not "role play" because the player can already throw down a bedroll anywhere at any time or pass time anywhere at any time.  There are various costs, risks, and benefits applicable with each different alternative... and all the player is expected to do is choose wisely in order to stay alive.  That's the very basis of this "survival" game.

Addendum upon checking - Re sleeping in a car.  A car without a bedroll in your inventory will give +3C warmth bonus.  If you have a bedroll in your inventory, the warmth bonus will equal that of your bedroll.  This makes sleeping in a car with a bearskin bedroll in your inventory very doable on a reasonably good-weathered night, even if your fire near the car goes out.

ETA:  The Interloper start (without matches and a bedroll) is not realistic... but it is also not compulsory.  People choose to play it BECAUSE they want the added challenge.  Figuring out how to get by without being able to sleep to regen is part of that challenge.

Edited February 10, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[pocho]

1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

OK, I'll stop wording it quite that way.  It's not meant as an ultimatum to other people, but an indication that I don't want to go on repeating myself.

OK, I see.  When you said "end discussion", you meant "this is the end of my comment" rather than telling others to stop discussing.  Yea, I wouldn't use that phrase because it can give the wrong impression.  All good then.  I misunderstood.  

 

1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

The OP just doesn't like those options because, in one way or a different way, it always comes back to the existing alternatives being too difficult. 

The OP can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think maybe you misunderstand what their issue is.  It's not that they don't like the existing options, or the difficulty of the existing options. 

I think it's the lack of the one option that would make sense to have included, not to make things easier, but to have a more 'complete' survival system from an immersion POV.  If you read jeff's comments, he mentioned "logical consistency" of the mechanics.  I think we all agree that once we figure out where all the bedrolls and vehicles are in the game, we can go and use them.  The issue is that if you lose your bedroll, the game essentially gives you two choices:  keep going until you find one of those pre-determined locations on the map with a bed, or sleep in the snow by building a snow shelter in no time, using 5 cloths.  So jeff is saying, OK instead of being able to lie down anywhere on the ground, then at least add a similar recipe for crafting the same kind of thing as the snow shelter, but for INSIDE, just to make things consistent.  That's all.  Crafting a show shelter takes zero time, and you can sleep outside immediately, but you can't do the same for the inside, and you can't even move that snow shelter inside.  I think that's the biggest inconsistency he's talking about, which doesn't obey the law of physics.  So I can stand outside one meter from the door to sleep in the snow, but I can't do the same inside with the same materials.  

I hope this will help clarify the issue.  It's not about the difficulty, and it's not to make things easier, but it's to make things more logical. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by pocho

[Mroz4k]

Hello!

I skimmed through most of the discussion here, but I see a lot of the points that were brought up over the years. I used to be on the side of "Sleeping without bedroll" but over the time have leaned towards the opinion against it. Like others pointed out, the fact that you cant just "rest everywhere" is a pretty lovely game mechanic that actually forces you to make certain decisions and take certain strategies that you would not be forced to do if you had the ability to just sleep everywhere. Yes, sleeping everywhere woudl be convinient. If I were to choose words for The Long dark and describing it, convinient would be the last word I would use.

I noticed the idea "sleeping everywhere with high probability of death" - if this is just a flat-out chance it happens, thats a 100% no, thanks. I am against any sort of RNG system of that kind, that doesnt tie into the mechanics of weather, where certain kind of RNG makes perfect sense. After all, weather changing quite often puts a stop to your plans, and sometimes even forces you to improvise. 

Personally, I like things the way they are, but since there are two camps on this idea, it would not be me if I did not offer a suggestion of a compromise. One that, I think, would more of less satisfy both camps of this discussion.

The makesift bedding of leaves you can find in some caves, I believe it should be buildable under the section "campcraft" just like Snow shelter. It would take material and time and energy to make one, and they could only be built inside the "indoor" areas. That means a cave where the outdoor temperature drops, and where there is no "wind" coeficient. Like the caves they are currently found in. They would be temporary - with a condition much like snow shelter. You can build them, then take them apart next morning, at a loss of material and more time. 

In the end, you can build a snow shelter to do most of those things. The advantage of building one is the extra temperature boost it provides and the unnecesity to have a burning fire to detract predators. The risk would be the weather could change, the temperature may not be enough. Bedding would provide no temp bonus, and you would be succeptible to animal attacks if you did not keep a fire burning closeby. It still brings something new to the game, it has its merits and demerits, but in the end, does not affect the game too much compared to how things are right now. It is also more realistic in a way.

The credit for this idea is not mine entirely, it is based on a collaboration with other forum members. The mechanics of "how it would work" - those are mine now, the initial idea  was a bit different. I will give proper credit in a bit, as an edit to this post. 

 

[xenojeff]

On 2/11/2021 at 12:39 AM, Ps4Methuselah said:

Would you be so kind my friend as to tell us which game you played previous to The Long Dark that allowed you to sleep on the bare floor? I played many games including the SIMs which covers bodily functions, hygiene, fitness & depression...they still make you use a bed/couch/bench to sleep in the SIMs.

I'm not resurrecting the topic really, I just wanted to answer this person's very polite question. 

Afaik the SIMs isn't really a survival game and  sleep isn't a core mechanic that's very important to the overall progress in the game, so IMO that's a poor comparison.  On the other hand, Green Hell is a first-person survival game much like TLD, and it allows you to lie down and sleep anywhere even if you dont have a bed, at the risk of negatively affecting the character's sanity level as well as catching diseases.  But that's a much more advanced survival simulator than TLD. (I highly recommend that game btw)

But other games are irrelevant to whether this particular game has certain shortcomings in the context of its own scope and what it's trying to do.  When I say that a mechanic is underdeveloped or incomplete, I'm not necessarily saying "oh but other games have that feature, so this one should have it too".   My reference point is the game itself, in which sleep is a pretty central mechanic to the overall experience, or at least it's 'trying' to be, and as such I feel that the implementation doesn't quite hit the mark by not providing enough self-sufficient methods to sleep at various locations that dont' have beds like barns, some cabins, shelters, caves, or even some exposed places.  That's unless you've hit all the 'right' locations on the map to loot for a bedroll which isn't even craftable in story mode, and if you happen to find one you are forced to hold on to it forever.  That lack of self-sufficiency and being forced to search for loot or else I can't sleep, feels a bit... well, forced, to me.  It's too much hand holding by the game.  In fact, to the people who say that sleeping anywhere would make the game too easy, I would say that being 'forced' to carry that bedroll everywhere  with you, is what actually makes things too easy and one-dimensional, and it makes things like the snow shelter irrelevant.  You just find one bedroll, carry it with you till the end of times, don't lose it, and you're set forever.  To me that's a very simplistic and unimmersive approach that doesn't require much involvement from the player. 

And when I suggest "sleep anywhere", I don't mean "leave everything else the same".  In fact the game would be better if it didn't have all the beds and bedrolls placed at carefully selected locations for the player to find, and instead provided more self-sufficiency.  I don't like the feeling of being too dependent on in-game loot. 

Some of the other physical limitations in the game like you can't equip knives, hatchets, prybars, etc. and freely swing them at stuff, also took some getting used to.  Or that you can't really build much of anything in the game. 

Anyway, when (or if) story mode is ever completed and released, I may go back and finish it provided I still remember this game, but the survival aspect just isn't quite there for me.

Edited February 14, 2021 by xenojeff

[one_shurbbery]

A simple solution would be to make the pine bough beds something we could craft and then place in one location. Shittier than an actual bedroll or snow shelter, but at least you can rest in a cave if you have nothing. The game already has bough beds placed in some caves so I don't imagine it being too much of a stretch for them to make it a crafting item. It's something I can only see effecting new players starting a interloper run though. 

 

[Stinky socks]

I just realized. Why sleep in buildings on the floor when 95% of them have beds?

What I'd like added rather is being able to faint when too exhausted.

[odizzido]

There are times when the weather is too terrible to move and there is no bed in the place you're around. I've had it.

 

However my bigger thing about not being able to sleep anywhere is let's say you need to climb a rope to get out of a place but you are 100% tired and your bed roll was ruined. It's game over. Your character will refuse to even try. I don't mind dying, infact I like it most of the time, but to die because your character is so pathetic makes me sad.

[Stinky socks]

58 minutes ago, odizzido said:

you are 100% tired and your bed roll was ruined

 

59 minutes ago, odizzido said:

to die because your character is so pathetic makes me sad.

Not pathetic, but ill-prepared:) this is wilderness, not Interstate 95.🏤🏨

[Kranium]

I would be nice to have a nap in one of those comfy chairs or on a couch tho. Don't see why not.

 

I'd like to be able to sit in the comfy chair in front of the fireplace at Homesteader's Respite, while reading a skill book. Throw in a bottle of scotch while we're at it. Then it would be like my own life simulator lol

Edited February 22, 2021 by Kranium

[ManicManiac]

 

6 hours ago, odizzido said:

There are times when the weather is too terrible to move and there is no bed in the place you're around. I've had it.

Then why wouldn't the player have just brought a bedroll with them?  If the player doesn't have one because they haven't found one yet, then perhaps the player needs to be a little more forward thinking (i.e. try to head to places where a bed is more likely to be found).  This is generally a good rule of thumb even if the player is new to a region, so while previous experience is ideal... it's not necessary.  Most major structures have beds inside (heck, even some remote caves will have a Pine Bough Bed in them).  Besides that, if the player can just manage to stay warm enough and wait out a storm... then they've got another chance to get out there and find a place with a bed.
 

6 hours ago, odizzido said:

However my bigger thing about not being able to sleep anywhere is let's say you need to climb a rope to get out of a place but you are 100% tired and your bed roll was ruined.

I mean why would the player not be paying attention to the condition of their bedroll?
We can avoid wildlife, so if our bedroll is ruined because of an animal attack, I'd tend think that's kind of on the player.
Also, climbing ropes does require some pre-planning.  I think that if a player ends up getting themselves struck on a ledge with no way to get down (or up) and no way to start a fire and take a nap...  I think the issue is more of a lack of planning/preparation on the part of the player.  Why even try to risk a climb if the player isn't reasonably sure they would be able to make it?  For me, when in doubt... I just don't make the attempt.

Just having a ruined bedroll isn't necessarily an automatic game over.
The player just has to plan where their going to try and go a little more carefully.  I think that in this particular scenario, it's seems that the player had just perhaps given up.  It's not automatically a game over... I think it's a challenge for the player to try and overcome and survive though.
 

6 hours ago, odizzido said:

I don't mind dying, infact I like it most of the time, but to die because your character is so pathetic makes me sad.

To me, it's not that the character is being pathetic... In some of the scenarios described it seemed to me that mistakes were maybe made by the player, or perhaps might not have planned very well, or maybe even just having a run of really bad luck; and that caused the character to die.

On 12/14/2020 at 7:52 PM, ManicManiac said:

My opinion...  that is to say, I think:
This is a game that requires players to pay attention to what they are doing.
It's a game that has real consequences for mistakes (and sometimes just misfortune).
It's a game that was (to use Raph's words), "we don't want to make a game that's going to hold the player's hand."

These are all things that (for me) make it the best game I consistently play (even after 6+ years, I still play almost daily).
That the game is willing to punish mistakes, gives the player a big incentive to always pay attention.

Edited February 22, 2021 by ManicManiac
Found some errors after the post had locked... so I removed and reposted to correct the typeos I spotted.

[odizzido]

I know you don't think the character is pathetic, we simply don't agree. You feel that we should just play the game how it is, and I dislike when basic human functions are beyond our character's ability. Like sleeping. Or turning your head. Or stepping over a stick. I will forever think of the upper class twit of the year who refused when they got to the match boxes when I play TLD. That's us.

[AdamvR]

I think I can empathize with the OP's frustration here, as it might strike someone to be odd and unrealistic - despite myself not frequently having run into the same situation (as I simply just carry a bedroll at all times, ever since I first played 4-5 years ago)

When it comes to reality: It is all about insulation, I believe. With the huge mass, heat capacity and cold temperature of the buildings (or caves) they would just keep sucking up your body warmth, no matter the fire nearby (to warm the stone/wood as well much-much-much more warmth is needed, than warming up the air). As soon as there is a layer of insulation between you and that floor, it will start to make sense sleeping on it - and that layer is represented (quite accurately) with the cloth and bear-fur bedrolls and their degradation (thinning) mechanic. (giving you a bit of warmth)

Realistically you would be losing temperature and/or condition very quickly, without that layer of insulation between you and the floor, I believe to the extent that it would easily counter the healing properties of sleeping. It could be part of the game, that you lay down, start to sleep, but keep losing temperature (at first), but it would need to kill you relatively quickly at most in a few hours, or even less. So I would guess the devs just simplified this mechanic to simply make it not possible. Instead of making it possible, then let the player believe it to be safe, and then kill them. (One could argue they did a favor by limiting it). In the jungle, the mud you sleep in is not below-freezing, so it does make sense there (a'la Green Hell). I did IRL sleep on the floor as well, but never in freezing temperatures, and I do not think anyone who did sleep on the floor in freezing temperatures is here to tell us. (please, if you did, correct me being wrong)

At the same time I was wondering "why cannot we sleep on the hides, or even better, make a bed out of them. Maybe, two bearskins and some wood could make a perfect bed." Oh wait...
But maybe the "wolf-skin is also fine, just dropped on the floor... at least if it is completely dry? or the deer/bunny too? and some places do have a carpet on the floor too" so I guess that could be done, at least in theory. But then you would need to decide how many of these you need to lay on the floor, how to tile them, and then check whether they cover enough area to keep the survivor fully safe, and what if it only covers 47% of body area...? I believe that would just be too complicated both for programming it and playing it (=not fun).

Maybe it is simpler, and more realistic to have to have some sort of pre-made insulation for sleeping safe?  (I do like the compromise of @Mroz4k as well - to create a makeshift bed akin to the improvised hand/head wraps, maybe without introducing a new resource of pine-branches, and rely on the existing ones such as furs/cloth, with a "high" cost in condition degradation/lost material)

About rage-quitting: I think, giving the game a bit more credit (given its massive fan-base) - despite some, at-first-odd mechanics, can still lead to a love affair down the road. But of course it is for everyone to decide on their own.

Edited February 22, 2021 by AdamvR

[odizzido]

sleeping on a floor, even a relatively warm one, is very cold. I've tried it. Of course I didn't have on a full set of winter clothes. If I had I would have felt fine I am sure, at least on the floor I was on.

Honestly we should probably be getting a -warmth penalty even when using a bedroll in a cave. The bedroll will help, but that floor is going to still be extremely cold. Only the magic houses should get a bonus. Not that it matters there anyways since they're magically warm anyways.

[Stoutlander]

Sleeping on the floor or ground in below freezing temps. I'm sure the developers will get to that right after they allow us to stick our tongues on frozen metal.

 

[Mroz4k]

I get the core issue with not being able to sleep anywhere. And I agree that perhaps, having to carry a bedroll everywhere can also be a bit riddiculous. Like I pointed out - I think a way to fix that is that players should be able to build a Pine bought bedding themselves. And making the existing ones be degradeable same as snow shelters. That makes carrying bedroll still relevant as it is just less resource demanding, and not a 1-2 time use bedding. 

Still, overall, the game is not hopeless this way. And you can sleep "everywhere" in the game, more less. It is just that some places are easier to sleep in then others, and in order to sleep everywhere, you need to spend some resources to make it happen - by building a snow shelter. I know you cant build it just everywhere, but I think reasonably everywhere you will find snow close-by to allow for building it.

I saw the argument with being too tired to finish that last stretch of rope climbing... but if you dont have a bedroll, and just cant reach  the top, that is bad planning on the player´s part. Still, it is not something you cant salvage. One can still drop the excessive tools they dont need for immidiate survival, and only keep enough things on them to eat up, drink up, clothes and cloth and sticks to make the snowshelter. Then, you can pretty safely climb down even when exhausted, and just leave the gear lying there on the ledge. You climb down, rest up, and try again at full strenght the next day. That is assuming you cant build the snow shelter there on the ledge.

Now you cant find the sticks to build it up there, but it is reasonable enough to assume you will have the sticks to craft it. If not, climb down and hope you can find enough to build one. Break down torches in your inventory if you must.

Dont have cloth? Well, break down some of your clothes. It sounds insane... but its better then dying. Use that to build the snow shelter.

Sometimes, survival is not pretty and you have to make sacrifices.

The mention of "green hell" - I have not played the game, but if it allows sleeping on the ground, in amazonian forest, it is missing something very important in terms of survival basics. You will never seen anyone sleep on the ground in rainforest, its just too dangerous. The body heat attracts all manner of poisonous insects, snakes, and such. Every survival expert I have ever known would build some sort of elevated bed to sleep in for that reason alone. Elevated sleeping location is a common theme for survival in rainforest, tropical island and marshland survival. Other then that, it looks pretty cool. Might give it a try some time.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Mroz4k

[Sir Loin1557]

"They did allow drinking unclean water from toilet tanks, so that shows you that they can do things like that, and they should.  "

 

In response to Pocho, all toilets have about 1+ gallon of clean drinking water in their toilet. Not in the bowl, notice when you take water from toilets there's never water in the bowl. Its under the lid on the back of the toilet and potable. So yea realism is a part of this game, take a cup and try some

[Pillock]

I think the addition of an on-the-spot craftable bed would improve the game.

Yes, there are solutions to the problem of finding yourself out in the boonies facing death if you can't rest, but you don't a bedroll - the snowshelter being the obvious one.

But it does lead to some frustratingly unintuitive situations, like building a snowshelter to sleep in that's right outside a cave or trailer where you'd have been much warmer. Situations like this remind you that you are fighting for the survival of a game character against artificial game rules, rather than being immersed in the scenario of being out in the wilderness trying to survive against nature - and I think reducing the instances of those "reminders" generally makes the game better.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Pillock

[Stinky socks]

I just think bedroll should be top priority to keep in good shape if going out on an adventure. Leaving house with almost ruined bedroll or not having one at all is equivalent to leaving matches at home.(or other means of fire starting)

[odizzido]

9 hours ago, Pillock said:

But it does lead to some frustratingly unintuitive situations, like building a snowshelter to sleep in that's right outside a cave or trailer where you'd have been much warmer. Situations like this remind you that you are fighting for the survival of a game character against artificial game rules, rather than being immersed in the scenario of being out in the wilderness trying to survive against nature - and I think reducing the instances of those "reminders" generally makes the game better.

Yes to this.

[Syraith]

I only recently started playing and have been having an amazing experience. On day 60 of my first survival play through I decided to go for the gold mine in Ash Canyon for the technical pack and crampons. After an exciting encounter with the moose outside the goldmine exit, I continued on my way with some broken ribs excite to get to my home base and take a rest. When I went to lay down to recover, my bedroll was gone.

long story short, I think the moose stole it, but I religiously check before leaving any camp if I have my bedroll. I watched enough videos, read enough guides to not make that mistake.

walking back, I was pretty much doomed. 
 

Im on another play through but do feel like a makeshift bedroll for those situations would be a nice concept. Or if anything else, as referenced above but not expanded to this point, yes, other games require a bed, but in a game like the sims, when you reach exhaustion you collapse to the ground and wake up feeling horrible.

Like hypothermia when you are cold, I think an exhaustion meter when you are drained would be something viable. It maxes you, you collapse for 2? hours and what happens happens. You’re outside, you may freeze to death or are effected by any other ailments in that time. Thirst, hunger, hypothermia, etc. You wake up with that amount of energy refilled and go on. 
 

Just an idea, it seems to me that as realistic as other elements are, something like passing out from sleep deprivation would be on the same wheelhouse if an alternative bedroll isn’t available. 

[AdamvR]

19 minutes ago, Syraith said:

It maxes you, you collapse for 2? hours and what happens happens. You’re outside, you may freeze to death or are effected by any other ailments in that time.

I think having a chance of collapsing when overexhausted would be realistic.
If it happens outside in winter, well, it is very likely you would not wake up from it (IRL).
But, even if in the game it only caused an instant hypothermia or similar, severe, but not immediately deadly condition (similarly to falling through ice), that would be a game-changing mechanic completely altering how we manage tiredness.
I do not think I would mind such a mechanic, but would not necessarily push for it to be added either... 😉
If it is there however, I would probably manage it with a meter similar to hypothermia risk, that goes up as you have redded out your exhaustion, and would give you a bit of time until you pass out if not taking at least a bit of rest.

Edited February 25, 2021 by AdamvR

[peteloud]

One should be able to sleep anywhere.  It should be the simple issue of warmth.  If you do not use a bedroll you do not have the warmth bonus.

[Syraith]

1 hour ago, peteloud said:

One should be able to sleep anywhere.  It should be the simple issue of warmth.  If you do not use a bedroll you do not have the warmth bonus.

As a realist aspect, yeah this does make sense. But I think there’s a fine line when it comes to real/game that needs to be taken under consideration for entertainment value. Maybe as a feature in a custom play though you can toggle but I think any preset play shouldn’t include this.

There are hundreds if not thousands of reality items that could be added, like dumping out a lantern for the fuel inside? Or climbing over an object/jumping? Or a multitude of other things that have already been mentioned. But sleeping anywhere eliminates a strategic element I believe they wanted in the game. So I can see both sides.

 

1 hour ago, AdamvR said:

If it is there however, I would probably manage it with a meter similar to hypothermia risk, that goes up as you have redded out your exhaustion, and would give you a bit of time until you pass out if not taking at least a bit of rest.

I think that’s one of the reason I would push for it. It’s all already there. It may just be a mechanic that the developers wanted to keep as a severe consequence, but this would be a casual morning code.

Create a new function for the exhaustion ailment. Copy the code from hypothermia that has the bar display and time duration. Change names and variables. Call the sleep function but set the duration to a preset variable of 2 hours  120 minutes whatever they use for time, instead of a user input variable. All the afflictions are there for effecting everything against the player in their environment already. Then use the animation for passing out after a major attack event.   

Depending on the difficulty set, you may survive in the outdoors on easier setting but harder settings would likely be too cold. Would have to aim for a cave and start a fire. More strategic element.

Would also be cool to add other impairments like the player can randomly trip while reaching exhaustion, blurred vision, etc. All that is already there too 😋

 

Mostly I’m just salty about my situation but I think when every other ailment has multiple ways to reduce the risk (eating/drinking unsafe items might do more harm, cattails are naturally occurring, drink/eat something warm, make a fire with a few sticks for a moment of heat, etc) having one only real remedy for sleeping is a little odd. Again, it may just be the way the devs wanted to keep the game though so I’m good either way.

[peteloud]

37 minutes ago, Syraith said:

. . .  But sleeping anywhere eliminates a . . .

 

Quote

I have never checked, but would one be able to sleep in many places without a bedroll and not freeze to death?

If the warm area in a cave allows this then the warmth bonus of the back of a cave could be reduced.

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by peteloud