Pls fix the god damm snow shelters

[exeexe]

Im in a very critical situation so i set up a fire to keep me warm while i make a snowshelter. So after i set up the fire near a wind cover like some rocks i find that i cant place the snowshelter next to the fire cause the snow banks up the rocks. And somehow that prevent the snowshelter from being build. .. .. -- like what the fuck. Im building a snowshelter but then i cant build it because there is snow .. what?

Can you please make a solution to this sort of problem, its very annoying and game changing. Snowshelters are very useful tool toi have when you dont have a bedroll. As i see it you can go with 2 different solutions.

Solution A: when i put the fire im shown where the snowshelter can be, and after the fire is created there is still some transparent snowshelter that shows where i can build it.

Solution B: Make the snowshelter much more flexible so i can build it almost everywhere there is space.

[UpUpAway95]

I agrre, it's an issue.  I'd like to see the snow shelter come with an extension zone that would "create a flat spot" and guarantee that a fire can be placed on that created flat area.  The shelter itself should also be more flexible and allow itself to be placed on more sloping and varied terrain (simulating that the flat area they sit on can effectively be dug out of the snow almost anywhere).  Such improvements would make the snow shelters far more useful overall.

[stirfoo]

It's a bit of a catch-22. Build the shelter first and maybe freeze to death or build the fire first and curse as you try to drop the shelter near the fire. Haha.

[UpUpAway95]

7 minutes ago, stirfoo said:

It's a bit of a catch-22. Build the shelter first and maybe freeze to death or build the fire first and curse as you try to drop the shelter near the fire. Haha.

It's not really.  Build a fire first... a little ways away from the area in which you're placing the shelter; that is far enough away that you know it won't interfere with the placing of the shelter and with enough space around the shelter so that you can place a second fire closer to the shelter after you've erected it.  Then, pull a torch from your first fire and use it to make the second one.

[Looper]

On 12/31/2020 at 4:27 AM, exeexe said:

Im in a very critical situation so i set up a fire to keep me warm while i make a snowshelter. So after i set up the fire near a wind cover like some rocks i find that i cant place the snowshelter next to the fire cause the snow banks up the rocks. And somehow that prevent the snowshelter from being build. .. .. -- like what the fuck. Im building a snowshelter but then i cant build it because there is snow .. what?

Can you please make a solution to this sort of problem, its very annoying and game changing. Snowshelters are very useful tool toi have when you dont have a bedroll. As i see it you can go with 2 different solutions.

Solution A: when i put the fire im shown where the snowshelter can be, and after the fire is created there is still some transparent snowshelter that shows where i can build it.

Solution B: Make the snowshelter much more flexible so i can build it almost everywhere there is space.

I think you are a little winded up. Snowshelters are practically useless since buildings and caves are all around. usally its easy to place them by moving a little.

[odizzido]

If you have no access to a bed(roll) then you cannot sleep without a snow shelter.

[Bean]

5 hours ago, Looper said:

I think you are a little winded up. Snowshelters are practically useless since buildings and caves are all around. usally its easy to place them by moving a little.

Snow shelters can be very useful, actually!  If you don’t have a bedroll, they can be a place to crash in a zone without shelters or beds.  
I also made one behind the Camp Office in mystery lake just for sleeping in between marathon crafting sessions.  Ever seen 80 arrows?  Turns out they are a great way to skill up archery.  Also made bear coat, wolf coat, rabbit hat and gloves and deerskin pants and boots.  Took a while and cabin fever would have been assured if I’d slept in the camp office instead of the snow shelter out back. 

[Guest jeffpeng]

10 hours ago, Looper said:

Snowshelters are practically useless since buildings and caves are all around.

While I would agree that snow shelters are near useless, I wouldn't say this is because of the abundance of buildings and caves.

There are a lot of spots in the world where you can get stuck, and spending the night in a snow shelter would be preferable to having to walk to the next natural shelter or building, especially if between you and said shelter are a few ropes and you are tired as hell. Just think of TWM, HRV and the all new (and amazing) Ash Canyon. Even in the 'skeg I've run into situations where I really would have wanted a snow shelter to help me out after yet again being a bit optimistic with the ice (yeah, that still happens to me now and then).

The biggest problem with them, as described in the thread, is: they are too darn clunky. They are so hard to place it's hilarious. You do not only have to account for 45 minutes of building the thing, but also for half an hour plus of finding a spot where you can actually build it AND still allow for a sheltered fire.

But they also actually fail at their (I can only assume) intended use case: being a (somewhat) safe emergency shelter. Think about it. If you have to keep a fire going with your snow shelter, then there really is no upside to even building one (except the built-in bedroll, but that's a fringe use case). The fire has to be protected either way. If they were actually so warm that you could sleep in them in everything except maybe a blizzard ... then yeah, there would be an actual case to be made for spending 45 plus 20 minutes plus a piece of cloth.

Also what always bugged me: Why do they decay so hard? Why do they require cloth to be fixed? If at least the cloth would be removed from the cost of fixing them they could actually be used as a viable option to create lean-to-shelters along routes you travel frequently.

So how to make them viable? Easy: a) make them easier to place b) remove cloth from the cost to repair them c) make them as warm as the backside of actual caves. That's warm enough for a decently equipped character to take a good rest without having to worry about waking up a popsicle.

[wilsonaka]

I just think maybe it was a logical move by the devs because a standing snow shelter near a fire would, you know, melt.

9 hours ago, odizzido said:

If you have no access to a bed(roll) then you cannot sleep without a snow shelter.

Vehicles.

[Looper]

15 hours ago, Bean said:

Snow shelters can be very useful, actually!  If you don’t have a bedroll, they can be a place to crash in a zone without shelters or beds.  
I also made one behind the Camp Office in mystery lake just for sleeping in between marathon crafting sessions.  Ever seen 80 arrows?  Turns out they are a great way to skill up archery.  Also made bear coat, wolf coat, rabbit hat and gloves and deerskin pants and boots.  Took a while and cabin fever would have been assured if I’d slept in the camp office instead of the snow shelter out back. 

Only a short, short distance away there is a perfect cave behind the lake huts. If you want a view, the lake overview is same distance. Or go to de dam, sleep in the ravine cave. even shorter. 

[Looper]

10 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

The biggest problem with them, as described in the thread, is: they are too darn clunky. They are so hard to place it's hilarious. You do not only have to account for 45 minutes of building the thing, but also for half an hour plus of finding a spot where you can actually build it AND still allow for a sheltered fire.

If you are in that situation where you just have to build one - surely one can plan for a good spot. I've never, ever had any problems placing them.

The game need mechanics to strengthen mid / lategame challenges, not a random easing of shelters - IMO.

 

[UpUpAway95]

10 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

Also what always bugged me: Why do they decay so hard? Why do they require cloth to be fixed? If at least the cloth would be removed from the cost of fixing them they could actually be used as a viable option to create lean-to-shelters along routes you travel frequently.

So how to make them viable? Easy: a) make them easier to place b) remove cloth from the cost to repair them c) make them as warm as the backside of actual caves. That's warm enough for a decently equipped character to take a good rest without having to worry about waking up a popsicle.

If you repair them after each use, it generally only costs you a single stick.  I've very seldom had repairing one cost me cloth.

The easiest spots I've found have generally been near one of the many hollowed out trees in the game world.  I place my fire inside the tree (which protects it on three sides and then place my shelter next to the opening still allowing for space for me to walk in between the shelter and the fire inside the tree.  Sure, there are some trees I've found that don't allow the shelter to be placed to take advantage of the fire, but I've also found several that do.

Edited January 5, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[UpUpAway95]

10 hours ago, wilsonaka said:

I just think maybe it was a logical move by the devs because a standing snow shelter near a fire would, you know, melt.

Vehicles.

There are no vehicles in HRV, though... or in Forlorn Muskeg.  I'm not absolutely certain, but I don't think there are any in Ash Canyon either.

Edited January 5, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[Bean]

9 hours ago, Looper said:

Only a short, short distance away there is a perfect cave behind the lake huts. If you want a view, the lake overview is same distance. Or go to de dam, sleep in the ravine cave. even shorter. 

That was my first move, actually.  I went back and forth between that dam cave and the Office.  It was tedious and not fun.   The snow shelter idea occurred to me later and I felt like smacking my past self for being so dense.  
It was way better with the shelter!  I added a good two hours to my crafting day.  

[Looper]

14 hours ago, Bean said:

That was my first move, actually.  I went back and forth between that dam cave and the Office.  It was tedious and not fun.   The snow shelter idea occurred to me later and I felt like smacking my past self for being so dense.  
It was way better with the shelter!  I added a good two hours to my crafting day.  

Great. Personally I see no need for marathon crafting sessions that could warrant a snowshelter, but good you had no challenge placing it 🙂

Edited January 6, 2021 by Looper

[Guest jeffpeng]

On 1/5/2021 at 7:59 PM, UpUpAway95 said:

If you repair them after each use, it generally only costs you a single stick.  I've very seldom had repairing one cost me cloth.

You HAVE to repair them after each use. Once they degrade past 74% (I think) it costs a cloth. So you have a little over 24 hours to repair them. That really limits their use as a base camp if your action radius is more than half a day away, and it also makes them rather pointless to set up in advance on frequently traveled routes.

[UpUpAway95]

3 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

You HAVE to repair them after each use. Once they degrade past 74% (I think) it costs a cloth. So you have a little over 24 hours to repair them. That really limits their use as a base camp if your action radius is more than half a day away, and it also makes them rather pointless to set up in advance on frequently traveled routes.

There are variances in how fast they degrade depending on difficulty level.  My comment was based on your apparent implication that they always required cloth to be fixed... nothing more.  They simply don't always require cloth to be fixed.  I wasn't addressing your intention of using them as essentially permanent way stations.  The answer to that is simple.  They aren't currently intended to be used that way.  However, if you're in an area like, say, HRV, and you build it on a route you can get back to every night and fix it after every use, you can use it for multiple nights without it costing you any additional cloth.  Would they be more useful if they degraded more slowly overall?  Absolutely.  Would more people be inclined to use them if they did not require cloth to build?  Absolutely.  The thought of running out of cloth seems to be a common concern among TLD players.  Would that make the game too easy overall?  That's always a debate, isn't it?

Placing them and a fire is currently a chore.  I usually have the best luck placing close to the hollowed out trees and building my fire inside the tree (which protects the fire from 3 sides; but I agree with the OP, there should be something done to make them place-able in more locations more easily and it should be a lot easier to place a fire next to them.  If they change nothing else about them, fixing the placement issues would at least be progress.

[Guest jeffpeng]

9 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

The thought of running out of cloth seems to be a common concern among TLD players.  Would that make the game too easy overall?  That's always a debate, isn't it?

Well it's a concern if you actually plan to play a long-lived interloper or some sort of one-map-challenge on the more remote maps. Otherwise ... nah, I don't think so. At least never happened to me. But, yeah, for some reason there is the urge to plan for day 3652.
 

10 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

However, if you're in an area like, say, HRV, and you build it on a route you can get back to every night and fix it after every use, you can use it for multiple nights without it costing you any additional cloth.

I've lived 2 months like that on TWM back in the day 😉

My point is... mostly .... there are no real use cases due to the limitations put on them except the utmost emergency and the fringe use case of not having a bedroll. And in both cases it requiring cloth is likely to be a prohibitive requirement. In my opinion the snow shelter is too good of a concept and too "cool" of an advanced game play mechanic to live out its days in virtual obscurity. And about
 

18 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Would more people be inclined to use them if they did not require cloth to build?  Absolutely.  The thought of running out of cloth seems to be a common concern among TLD players.  Would that make the game too easy overall?  That's always a debate, isn't it?

Yes, you can debate that. Although having to spend around an hour, all things considered, to set it up properly in itself makes it either an emergency measure or an effort planned in advance. And I would argue that 

22 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

The answer to that is simple.  They aren't currently intended to be used that way.

is probably true, but I don't think it should be. The rock caches were a long standing community wish to be able to create storage opportunities in the world. Now add a snow shelter to that and living out in the wild (at the right spot) becomes actually pretty damn feasible.

But yeah, I agree. Making it more easily placeable would fix a heap of issues with it, and that would be a really good start. I really do think the snow shelter is one of the coolest mechanics in TLD, and it really pains me that I can remember exactly two occasions where I used them in a "normal" game.

[Dan_]

I'll chime in with my 0.02, which is the snow shelter has limited utility and that's a fact, it's an accessory game mechanic that can be useful at times, but most often than not will always live in obscurity. I use it for two things: Challenges ( one region and outerloper ) and camping for fun in late loper games.

Allowing it to be placed in more spots would be a welcome mechanic, I suspect it hasn't been done because it caused issues with the player exiting and getting stuck in the snow shelter in the past, I'd wager that is one of the reasons you need a perfect spot to place them, which is annoying but ok. 

The cloth cost is not a factor if you can move around and repair it at will. It probably would be bad in a 10-year run like some folks have but in reality, for most of the games it isn't really an issue. For challenge runs and single-region gauntlets then yes it becomes a huge factor, but then again only a few nutsies like us do stuff like this.

I'm all in for going full native skills in the game, so I suppose you could include pelts as a substitute for cloth (make it expensive) and I'd love if the decay rates were tweaked a bit, because in loper anything over a day and you need cloth to repair the shelter, so you kinda limit your working radius when using the shelter as a base camp. 

Other than that, I'd like to say ( and please note this is not a dig at anyone here or in other threads whatsoever) is that sometimes we get too hung up on the concept of not making the game "too easy" and thus kinda limit our imaginations and restrict the possibilities a bit. Well, the game has been getting progressively easy since early alpha and it also got substantially better at the same rate. So that's not really good argument because there's custom modes, and varied regions with different difficulty levels so you make the game as easy or hard as you want it to be. Plus Hinterland has been masterful at introducing new elements that sometimes reduce the overall difficulty but improve the experience, but at the same time being respectful of the average challenge each difficulty mode presents. 

Offering more possibilities is always great in my books, it gives more people into their personal goldilocks zone when playing and enable more and more folks to experience the amazing artwork and sound design of this game.

Apologies for the rambling, stay warm out there! 

[tulkawen]

My problem with snow shelters is that I'd use one during an emergency when a snow storm catches me out in the open. The problem is that jumping into it during a snow storm doesn't raise the temperature above freezing. Meanwhile, a fire next to it cannot be maintained because the wind blows it out. This is made worse by the fact that snow shelters are so incredibly picky with where they wish to be built and don't allow it near hills or places that actually offer a windblock. For example I was by the black train wagons at the Muskeg and wanted to benefit from both windblock and snow shelter warmth bonus and it wouldn't let me place it against the wagons.

I think shelters need to be structured with 3 small walls hugging the entry point where a fire can be built so it has 3 side wind block and would only go out if the wind changes and goes into 1 unprotected direction. Of course if you want to get out you'd need to put it out first, but maybe the snow shelter design should in the template offer a spot for a protected fire and give you a choice if you want a fire in that spot or to build it elsewhere near a shelter.

In any case, I do use shelters, but I feel their use can be more frequent by improving them. That's an item that needs to be beefed up.

[ManicManiac]

Quote

but I feel their use can be more frequent by improving them.

Please know that I'm just weighing in on the subject, and this particular comment caught my eye... I'm not directing this comment to/at anyone in particular (this is just the remark that sparked my interest in joining the conversation).

I think that's kind of the whole point though...  I don't think they were really meant to be used more frequently.

 
I'll echo what I've mentioned before on this exact subject:
I prefer the snow-shelter the way it is.  I think that this would really only serve to make things easier for the player, and I'm generally not in favor of things that make life easier for the player.

As it stands, I think we have plenty of other options for shelter in the game (be they man made, caves, ruined cabins, barns, outbuildings... in other words many kind of "interior" and "exterior" types of shelters).  I like that the snow-shelter doesn't seem to be intended as a permanent solution, but rather more for emergency or short duration.  I also love that no mater what if we choose to use a snow-shelter, we will loose some cloth (that is to say we can't just recover all our resources if we just plop one down and break it down the next morning).  This characteristic means we must make a commitment of resources if we really think it's necessary.

I think that part of the idea of the snow shelter's is that they are not an "instant safe haven," and that it's important to be paying attention to what we are doing, where we are in relation to nearby shelters, as well as the weather itself.  I think this game is all about careful and deliberate action, and that folks who are not paying close attention may find themselves in a dire situation.
 

I think that making what is essentially just an "over powered" version of a snow-shelter would take away from what I love about the game (the dire struggle).

Edited January 21, 2021 by ManicManiac

[Mistral]

Imo because of the more than generous premade shelters and beds and issues with fires there are really only 3 uses for snow shelters

1. You spawn in TWM on Loper and want to do Summit before going to PV = you do need it for sleeping

2. Moose hunting trickery, they won't ram the shelter so it's optimal luring & shooting place

3. Custom challenges

But I wish snowshelter was the main source of shelter, the potential would be great

Edited January 21, 2021 by Mistral

[Stone]

I'm glad I'm not alone in wanting snow shelters (or some simple sort of self build) to have a more meaningful role. They are highly situational currently and, as @jeffpeng points out, somewhat redundant once you enevitably have a hot sheltered fire next to one.

In the game they're so rarely ever necessary it's pointless. I'd be in favour of a more robust shelter - one perhaps that was safe and warm enough to be usable without a fire. However, that would be best introduced with a game mode that makes them a necessary tool in the survivor arsenal. For me that would me a more with less shelters. I.e. Interloper but lock the player out of most buildings.