TimberWolves

[tulkawen]

I'd like to state what I believe to be an issue with the new wolves, but firstly...

Whoooo!!! The new update is here! I very much LOVE the updates! The new map = awesome souse and I've already sent a few Loper and new challenge survivors pushing up the snowdrifts. Viva le newbie feeling!

Now lets get back to our... wolves.

My problem is - it is NO fun to play as the punching bag, even when I grant that yes you should be scared of the predators and they should be challenging.

The only defense item you get is the marine flare.

Meanwhile:

1) you cannot outrun these wovles

2) you cannot climb a tree to hide from the wolves because they are super tree climbing wolves

3) these wolves can enter hunter's blinds and attack you

4) these wolves completely ignore the fire! I had a burning fire in a cave, a wolf entered the cave, stood in the middle of the fire while chewing my leg and the fire wasn't physically hurting him and he wasn't losing any morale. Maybe these guys can be braver than regular black wolves when it comes to fires, but what the Hell... fire hurts whoever is jumping on top of it, wolves trampling it without penalties to them is beyond unreal.

5) The zones where the survivor can find loot and shelter are bottle necked by these packs. Thus, sneaking past or turning your back and going away when you see a pack isn't much of an option, that's the direction you must take. Most of the time they see you no matter what. There is what feels like a scripted confrontation in the open box mode.

Since I play Loper or custom modes, I found the means to ward off the new threat extremely limited vs other modes, which is ironic because this map was created for these harder modes. These modes do not have a pistol or a rifle you could find early game. If you're starting you've literally got nothing. A flare gun or a bow are options only when you start elsewhere, fully geared and then try this area.

There you should be a lot more items that help you defend yourself against packs: stones, torches, fires, red flares: all these items should either lower the pack morale or help with singular instances like interrupting an attack if you see a wolf about to jump you and throw a torch at his head that should break off that specific attempt. Also, add more trees around he wilds that the survivor can climb and wolves can't.

In any case, there should be a lot more options when you get spotted by wolves, so, you aren't stupidly running 300k empty wilds marathon with a marine flare in hand (if you even have one) and getting chewed on and feeling like there isn't really a shit you can do in this situation. There should be a greater variety of means to help you break off the pursuit.

[Kayosiv]

As someone who's wanted wolves to have pack mechanics for years, I have very excited about Timber Wolves.

However, it does seem that they were designed to be hard for the sake of brutality, other than give a fair or interesting gaming experience.

I don't have the time in the new update yet to say for sure, but I'll be dealing with them in great abundance soon as I trek over to the new area, armed to the teeth and covered in bearskins. I do hope they aren't as brutal when I'm packing some of the best items in the game.

Timber Wolves could replace all wolves, but in their current state of player hatred beyond all other behavior, that wouldn't work well for the game at all. I hope they're evened out in future patches, as while it may be interesting as a challenge in story mode, I hope they have the same amount of counter-play as other animals in the game so they can be more widespread.

It's almost a crime that there's no timber wolves inhabiting Timberwolf Mountain, but in their current state that may be too brutal for an already unforgiving region.

[tulkawen]

I imagine the first patch implementing TimberWolves onto older maps would exactly be at the Mountain hence the name and then they'll probably spread into PV as well. The way the wolves are implemented right now, I will not welcome that change as I know for sure I will be avoiding the area with my custom made and new Loper survivors, which once again being a big irony because crafting firearms is designed for these harder modes where you can't find firearms. (But I LOVE the plant and how difficult it is to do all that parkour and getting to the mechanism to craft the firearms. This update was GOOOOD!)

In general, I like the idea of the wolf pack mechanics and I don't mind at all having special TimberWolves that are tougher than normal wolves. However, right now the ways of fighting them are poor. The game simply makes me feel like some kind of victim person (NOT a feeling you want to have as a player) that gets mauled just because the game has removed all the basic ways of fighting off or tricking these wolves. There has to be a variety of ways to preserve your survivors and have better options for scattering these packs or hiding from them. Otherwise it's almost guaranteed death when you get spotted by a pack. This discourages exploration, not what you want in this type of game where you need and want to explore.

When I'm in confrontation with the wolves, I want to feel useful. As in my survivor is performing some kind of helpful actions to save herself. Go down kicking and screaming, not like oh swell they see me... run? sort of... light blue flare uhm yea they still jump on you if you aren't squirrely enough and do anyway eventually when you are, even if you see a car nearby these guys won't buzz off so no point even diving into it. Meh. There have to be better mechanics to defeat a threat.

Edited December 12, 2019 by tulkawen

[The Black Knight]

The only option for interloper players would be that a ruined revolver spawn but no ammo and no cleaning kit in whole island. So, we'll we need to get into the region with marine flares to repair the revolver and make ammo. Then that revolver will be our only defense for twolves (they will be in other maps soon)

[tulkawen]

Isn't that a broken circle? To deal with wolves you need to have a revolver, except you need to confront and get past 500 wolves to obtain that revolver?

I imagine if you're ready to craft a revolver, then you are at the late game stage where you've managed to gear up fully before setting your foot into a dangerous region, bows and arrows and armour and such. If the wolves appear on every map and you bump into them day 1 spawn, then you will get eaten waaaay before you'll be able to craft or even find a revolver. 🤔

Never mind Loper though where you can still heal.

Would anyone voluntarily bring their Deadman survivor into the zone especially early game that's not a part of the specific challenge. My present answer is no way unless I've accomplished every other goal there is and have nothing better to do then get eaten. And on deadman I haven't established that well yet after so many games.

Edited December 13, 2019 by tulkawen

[odizzido]

I haven't played this yet but the way I see it is that the new region/wolves seem really dangerous but offer very little reward. Sure the revolver is good, but you really don't need it to survive. Why take a huge risk and a lot of time on something that doesn't help all that much?

I suspect that people will check out the new region because it's something new but after that it won't see very much use.

[stratvox]

13 hours ago, odizzido said:

I suspect that people will check out the new region because it's something new but after that it won't see very much use.

I dunno, I've thought that about quite a few regions, and then after spending some time learning their contours I completely changed my mind.

[hozz1235]

To be honest, I'm not looking forward to TWs introduction to all other zones!  May very well make me further adjust settings and/or have passive wildlife (which I'd hate to do just because of the TWs).

[dbmurph22]

They will eventually be in other areas, yep.

There's always a chance they will be tweaked some, but overall I don't think the concept will change - a pack of wolves that work off morale and ignore most of what normally counters normal wolves.

It is somewhat of a "broken circle," but there may be passive ways to deal with them to help with the first steps of that circle.  My meaning is the first steps of like getting the revolver for instance or help with aggressively warding them off.   Or advancing bow skill.  It probably will start with good old fashioned avoidance.  We may discover other ways to deal with them, even in nerve wracking ways (things like avoidance, minimizing risk/damage, distracting, those types of tactics).  I think in some way that's some of the original intent (I think the wolves are their to induce anxiety and we aren't meant to blast them to bits or easily remove them).

It is pretty daunting now, though, for certain. I'm going to be trying hard to make bear friends for when they come into other areas.

[Kayosiv]

I love the pack behavior, but don't see why they have to not be counterable like other wolves normally are.

[dbmurph22]

I would love for fires to still work and for the fire detection range for them to flee to be lower than a normal wolf.  Just think if you had a pack around you and you were trying to track where each one was.  Oops, you have the fire up but there's one behind you that you forgot about, and.....you just happen to be standing between wolf and the fire.  Cue slo-mo. 

Would make for some nice fire dancing.

[peteloud]

I have played over 3,000 game days. I play mostly at Stalker level.  I was looking forward to Episode 3 and started playing it at its hardest level, which I thought reasonably suited my experience.

 

I found that the timber wolves were such an unpredictable hassle that I gave up Ep. 3.  It was not enjoyable.  That is coming from someone with lots of game experience.  I have not yet felt inclined to return and finish off Ep. 3. 

 

When i tried going into Bleak Inlet at Stalker level I had a load of hassle from wolves..  Once again it stopped being enjoyable.  If I, as an experienced player, feel like that, I  dread to think how newbies and players with only hundreds of game-days-play feel.

 

If Hinterland creates challenges to suit hard-core experienced players it might put off players with lesser skills, who outnumber experienced players by far.  We who contribute to this forum are the experienced players,  Hinterland needs to follow the wishes of less experienced players.

 

 

 

[Kayosiv]

28 minutes ago, peteloud said:

I have played over 3,000 game days. I play mostly at Stalker level.  I was looking forward to Episode 3 and started playing it at its hardest level, which I thought reasonably suited my experience.

I found that the timber wolves were such an unpredictable hassle that I gave up Ep. 3.  It was not enjoyable.  That is coming from someone with lots of game experience.  I have not yet felt inclined to return and finish off Ep. 3. 

I suppose the question then is what would make them enjoyable? More reliable counters or weaknesses? Less frequency? 

It seems like they are just to relentless AND common. Bears and Moose will generally leave you alone if you try to escape, and wolves have a variety of methods of being dealt with.

What does one do against Timberwolves that is not blue flare or fight to the death?

[Morrick]

As an experiment, I loaded one of my old Interloper games and brought my survivor to Bleak Inlet, just to see what happened. And well, I must agree with the Original Poster. Encountering timberwolves is like initiating the self-destruct sequence on a spaceship. 

Here's another idea to make things more manageable: have packs of regular wolves that behave as a regular wolf used to behave; have the old ways of deterring them to be as effective and reliable as they used to be. Have timberwolves as solitary predators. Keep them dangerous as they currently are, but solitary, so that the player has more chances to either flee them or engage in a fairer, one-on-one fight.

Just my two cattail heads.

[wolfman12345]

Just shoot em:) it lowers there moral

 

p.s I love this future I faced many timber wolfs on the hardest difficulty and trust me the only option for you guys when facing them is  shooting em.

 

I really don't understand why so much hate is on Timberwolves ......

Edited December 22, 2019 by wolfman12345

[wolfman12345]

On 12/19/2019 at 5:44 PM, diggity said:

As I said, find high ground, a fallen tree, a cliff, a wedge with one way entrance, and shoot them if possible. 

You really have to scout and know the surroundings.  Sneak/crouch along the sides.

This is a new zerg-like foe that you cannot go toe-to-toe with.   They swarm and retreat, and drive-by swipe.   I imagine buffalo and caribou were not happy about it either.

I agree  with you:D in real life they do this tactic alot

Edited December 22, 2019 by wolfman12345

[peteloud]

It seems to me that many things have changed in interactions with the timberwolves, in other aspects too,   (this is playing at Stalker level).  Before the timberwolves I felt that I had learned about wolf behaviour, and I could risk a clash with a wolf.  When a wolf attacked I'd drop a decoy and try to shoot it.  That did not always work and often the wolf would get through and chew me up a bit.  Now wolf behaviour is unpredictable, (that probably just means that I haven't learned what their behaviour is).  Timberwolves behave completely differently and, to me, it seems there are flaws in timberwolf attacks.  In the last two timberwolf attacks I lost my revolver.  Twice earlier my clothing was very heavily damaged.  As I have mentioned elsewhere, when I delay shooting to try to get a close up shot at the wolf my gun or bow & arrow won't work.   This results in the gameplay being one level harder than before.

I have a found a few other minor irritations. Previously I used my bow to shoot rabbits, now that is difficult, whereas killing rabbits with stones seems to be easy.  Previously a bow & arrows was my preferred weapon, because it was light and was pretty much the same when it came to killing wolves, bears & moose. Now the bow seems to be degraded and stones and the revolver are being promoted by Hinterland.

All of these things are very subjective, so it could be that I am just being unlucky and not they are not systematic changes.  However, the net result is that after happily playing well over 3,000 game days, I am now finding the game irritating rather than enjoyable. 

What also fascinates me is why this has happened.  What has caused Hinterland to introduce these changes?  I can understand HTL wanting to introduce new elements into the game, and full marks to them for thinking like that, but it seems to me, and quite a few others, that some of the changes have not been done well.

[StoneyWolf]

10 minutes ago, peteloud said:

I am now finding the game irritating rather than enjoyable. 

What also fascinates me is why this has happened.  What has caused Hinterland to introduce these changes?  I can understand HTL wanting to introduce new elements into the game, and full marks to them for thinking like that, but it seems to me, and quite a few others, that some of the changes have not been done well

Took the words right out of my mouth!

and the more I play with the new changes the more frustrated I get, I think they wanted to make the game harder but all they accomplished was making it more irritating to play.

[wizard03]

I think its because they have something else up their sleeve....something about the drill press has me pondering what else are they cooking up? May not be much now, but later....

[wolfman12345]

11 hours ago, wizard03 said:

I think its because they have something else up their sleeve....something about the drill press has me pondering what else are they cooking up? May not be much now, but later....

What do you mean?  More ammo more fighting tactics to handle timber wolfs?

[wizard03]

22 hours ago, wolfman12345 said:

What do you mean?  More ammo more fighting tactics to handle timber wolfs?

Im thinking more options to work on equipment. Building the whole selection of tools from scratch on interloper? Maybe a new tool that can only be crafted at this work station?.....Dunno what, but its defiantly got potential. 

[Corso]

2) you cannot climb a tree to hide from the wolves because they are super tree climbing wolves

and yet i can't walk over a log, dip or odd stone...

 

[MarrowStone]

On 12/22/2019 at 10:00 PM, wizard03 said:

I think its because they have something else up their sleeve....something about the drill press has me pondering what else are they cooking up? May not be much now, but later....

I'm thinking you'll be able to craft special arrowheads later with it. 

[wizard03]

2 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

I'm thinking you'll be able to craft special arrowheads later with it. 

Have to admit, if they could add a broad head arrow that doubles, triples, or quadruples the bleed out damage, might be a change in game with that modification.

[ToAsT]

Have to agree with a lot of the sentiment here that the way the timberwolves were implemented was poorly thought out, and I really disliked Ep 3 and the new zone because of it.

You can't even really avoid them since they seem to have xray vision and supernatural spotting capabilities. They don't seem to be afraid of fire and you can't run away from them. I can only imagine lugging around 2kg of marine flares when they add them to the other zones in a completely arbitrary mechanic JUST for these critters to MAYBE run away only for them to immediately return and attack again. WTF Hinterland? The way Raphael spoke about having a game where combat wasn't a primary mechanic and that the environment was the struggle (in that video he did a little ways back) seems to be at odds with what happened this update.

I really warmed up to The Long Dark after it was released from Early Access after having it and not really getting into it. Since then, I've logged over 100 hours which is more than most of my other games in that time. The thought of having these supernatural wolves in the other zones makes me afraid that I won't be able to enjoy the game anymore. I hope I'm wrong and they make some changes.

Perhaps if you could craft an item from the body of a killed timberwolf that would weaken the morale of the timberwolves you meet from that point on or limit the distance you could be spotted at (timberwolf hat or hood) it might be more tolerable.