How did we end up going from 8-10 weeks to 6 months for one update?

[Mistral]

2 hours ago, Kranium said:

This place hasn't changed much lol

True

Neither has Hinterland lol

[James Hickok]

15 hours ago, Leeanda said:

No offence but I'm not going to get stuck into this debate.. 

Ofc - You dont have to. I was not trying to make You upset. 

15 hours ago, Leeanda said:

I have enough real life crap going on at the moment..

Sorry to hear that  

15 hours ago, Leeanda said:

But are you suggesting that they don't work hard and only put out content when they can be bothered to?  

I didnt suggest anything - You did. I was just asking how do you know that for fact? 

15 hours ago, Leeanda said:

I'm not going to say anything else on this.. 

I feel like i expressed my opinion enough as well. 

15 hours ago, Leeanda said:

I'm  off to play this beautiful stunning game and maybe kill a moose or two..

Good luck and watch out for stomping xD 

[Leeanda]

3 hours ago, James Hickok said:

Ofc - You dont have to. I was not trying to make You upset. 

Sorry to hear that  

I didnt suggest anything - You did. I was just asking how do you know that for fact? 

I feel like i expressed my opinion enough as well. 

Good luck and watch out for stomping xD 

Thank you .. but you didn't..  

 

I did say though that I thought they did work hard, it was you who said I might be wrong.

Pesky moose never show up when you want one😊

[James Hickok]

22 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Pesky moose never show up when you want one😊

Yeah tell me about it. I just crafted a bow y-day on my new run (previous ended in me sleeping in a cave for 7 hours and was 100 sure my 10% warmth bonus from clothes will suffice - froze to death.) and would love to get one i ML where i am atm on day 10. If i dont find one i just go to AC for the backpack and in most cases i find one in TWM or AC. 

[Leeanda]

13 minutes ago, James Hickok said:

Yeah tell me about it. I just crafted a bow y-day on my new run (previous ended in me sleeping in a cave for 7 hours and was 100 sure my 10% warmth bonus from clothes will suffice - froze to death.) and would love to get one i ML where i am atm on day 10. If i dont find one i just go to AC for the backpack and in most cases i find one in TWM or AC. 

The only one I can guarantee to find  is in bleak..  .. 

Doesn't the satchel spawn in hrv on loper?

[James Hickok]

26 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

The only one I can guarantee to find  is in bleak..  .. 

Doesn't the satchel spawn in hrv on loper?

Naaah no satchel. Only very, very low chance to get a moose carcass but its like finding a satchel i believe. - Never ever got it tho. Must be very rare. 

[hipsu555]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:20 AM, ManicManiac said:

From what I see, they work hard to deliver on their plans the best that they can

What makes you think they work hard?
First thing when opening the game is you see is disclaimer about no crunch.  A bit of crunch is sometimes helpful, especially when you're already way behind on schedule. They choose to sell a 12-month expansion pass, not us. After so much time working on the game they should know what they are capable of and what not. 

[Raphael van Lierop]

Hey all,

Those of you who are frustrated by our development progress -- it's duly noted. We hear it, have heard it, and I don't think it's that helpful or useful to continue to talk about it over and over. Make your complaint, then move on. 

For TALES specifically and the abandonment of the 10-12 week cycle: I outlined reasoning in this dev diary. It was forthcoming and honest and I'm not sure what else you want. Complaining about it more isn't going to bring the updates out any faster.

In terms of TALES, Part Four. The full list of features and content is deeper than the few things I mentioned in the last dev diary, so the OP's frustration with what they felt is a short list of things, is misplaced. This is par for the course with us -- we never reveal the full list of features until we launch the update, because it's fun to surprise people. Wait until you see the update and then you can complain if you aren't happy. There's a lot in there. 

In terms of the sniping about the "No Crunch" disclaimer at the beginning of the game. It's super sad to me how some people have chosen to weaponize this. If you knew anything about the game industry, you would know how poorly it generally treats its employees. A lot of people come to Hinterland from triple-A after having been horribly mistreated by other studios -- we're talking work that scarred people with physical and mental health issues they are still dealing with. I did 12 years in triple-A before starting Hinterland, so I understand what crunch is. You throw it around like it's a good thing, "a bit of crunch is sometimes helpful". You don't know what you are talking about. My team's health is more important than your misplaced sense of entitlement.

With our "no crunch" disclaimer, we're trying to set a precedent for saying that it's not healthy to crunch people, it should be possible to make good games without doing that, and I felt it was important to put our values right out there at the beginning of the game. You don't have to like our values, but don't feel we owe you "crunch" and harming our health just because you feel upset you won't get an update when you thought you were entitled to it. To me, it's no different from seeing a "free range" or "organic" or "union made" type label on a product you buy in a store. You then have some idea of the environment and philosophy that drove its creation, and how the people around it were treated. I think it's important to put our values into the world, which is why I added that statement. I hope more game studios choose to do that, and more players choose to specifically buy games from developers who prioritize the health and wellbeing of their employees, vs. the sickening crunch culture that is part of the industrial game development process that destroys people for better quarterly earnings. If you don't care about people or understand the importance of managing your health and resources, you really haven't learned anything from playing THE LONG DARK.

The rest of you who continue to support our work, and give us the "benefit of the doubt" about deadlines and deliveries -- thank you for that. I'll be the first to say we haven't had a good track record of delivering things when we thought we would, and that's mostly my fault, but also the way things sometimes go, and ultimately we do deliver what we say we will deliver, we always have. That's what we're focused on. We appreciate you, because you have always understood that how we make things at Hinterland is a big part of what makes them special.

- Raph

[yollarbenibekler]

Quote

The rest of you who continue to support our work, and give us the "benefit of the doubt" about deadlines and deliveries -- thank you for that.

I'm looking forward to seeing your future projects! Keep up the good work! 

[xanna]

Thank you, @Raphael van Lierop

[Sherri]

I could no say it better than @Raphael van Lierop... the no crunch 'disclaimer' in the game bootup is a factor in how I personally value the game & the studio's work.

I work in the software industry. I have a LOT of empathy for these challenges. It's not just a matter of adding feature A, B & C. There are underlying engine updates that you are at the mercy of & many other factors outside Hinterland's control. Human hiccups including a pandemic are there too & the fact that Hinterland won't whip their staff through crunch to "mitigate" those human challenges (oh you have a sick child - tough shit get into work)... mean that planning & meeting targets is even harder. And we should have understanding for that. Never trade mental health for deadlines. Never product over people.

Missed dates will never get my "knickers in a twist" as grandma used to say. But I will say... just not giving dates until it's done might be ideal. I hope chapter 5 is never given a date. Just surprise us. 😁

Edited October 1, 2023 by Sherri

[past caring]

@Raphael van Lierop - hopefully you will take what follows in the spirit it is intended - which is to be supportive, but also some constructive criticism.

Hinterland has created a fantastic game in TLD. I think it is pretty uncommon to find a developer/studio that will keep on delivering installments and updates years after the game was released. OK, it was made clear from the start that Story Mode was going to be released and finished over a period, but those who are only or mainly interested in sandbox continued to benefit from the new maps and items and bug fixes.

With TFTFT, people weren't obliged to purchase it and for those that wanted to, advance purchase wasn't the only option - you could wait until all the installments had been released and any bugs fixed. Of course, people were going to be disappointed when the original timescale slipped or expected delivery times were missed. People love the game, would be looking forward to the next stage, so a degree of disappointment when timescales slipped was only natural.  That said, I don't really see an awful lot of value in moaning and complaining and certainly not in the vitriol and negativity. Even when posts expressing disappointment aren't particularly unpleasant, I see little point - what do they achieve? On here - a discussion forum - how do they encourage any useful discussion?

Every one is a bit disappointed when one of the release dates for Tales slips - I think one can take it as read, otherwise we wouldn't have bought the game. So I don't know what a post to the effect of "Oh I'm really disappointed/Hinterland are crap." is ever going to achieve in a constructive sense.

On the other hand, whilst it is true that Hinterland has always delivered (and that is a major reason for the love) what it really hasn't done well - at least not consistently - is to communicate. Yes there are going to be delays, yes sometimes trying to introduce a new mechanic will result in unexpected bugs, there will be things that are unforeseen - and there's not a huge amount that can be done about that. But there have been times when Hinterland could have communicated better - just told us what is going on. And that has been particularly the case here, on its own forums.

I think that does tend to irk a little bit because unlike the coding and bug solving issues, it doesn't really require an awful lot of effort.

[Mistral]

22 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

For TALES specifically and the abandonment of the 10-12 week cycle: I outlined reasoning in this dev diary. It was forthcoming and honest and I'm not sure what else you want. Complaining about it more isn't going to bring the updates out any faster.

This may be true, but it's also not helpful that your Steam storepage, Epic storepage, official Hinterland page and FAQ page all still claim that the purchase is a 12-month campaign (+ one of the links also still says 8-10 week update interval)
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2091330/The_Long_Dark_Tales_from_the_Far_Territory/
https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/the-long-dark--tales-from-the-far-territory
https://www.thelongdark.com/expansion/
https://www.thelongdark.com/expansion/faq/

It's also very understandable that not everyone have read a long blog post posted in May. And even if they have, it doesn't mean they have to be happy with it, even if the reasoning is good

Edited October 1, 2023 by Mistral

[hozz1235]

23 hours ago, past caring said:

@Raphael van Lierop - hopefully you will take what follows in the spirit it is intended - which is to be supportive, but also some constructive criticism.

Hinterland has created a fantastic game in TLD. I think it is pretty uncommon to find a developer/studio that will keep on delivering installments and updates years after the game was released. OK, it was made clear from the start that Story Mode was going to be released and finished over a period, but those who are only or mainly interested in sandbox continued to benefit from the new maps and items and bug fixes.

With TFTFT, people weren't obliged to purchase it and for those that wanted to, advance purchase wasn't the only option - you could wait until all the installments had been released and any bugs fixed. Of course, people were going to be disappointed when the original timescale slipped or expected delivery times were missed. People love the game, would be looking forward to the next stage, so a degree of disappointment when timescales slipped was only natural.  That said, I don't really see an awful lot of value in moaning and complaining and certainly not in the vitriol and negativity. Even when posts expressing disappointment aren't particularly unpleasant, I see little point - what do they achieve? On here - a discussion forum - how do they encourage any useful discussion?

Every one is a bit disappointed when one of the release dates for Tales slips - I think one can take it as read, otherwise we wouldn't have bought the game. So I don't know what a post to the effect of "Oh I'm really disappointed/Hinterland are crap." is ever going to achieve in a constructive sense.

On the other hand, whilst it is true that Hinterland has always delivered (and that is a major reason for the love) what it really hasn't done well - at least not consistently - is to communicate. Yes there are going to be delays, yes sometimes trying to introduce a new mechanic will result in unexpected bugs, there will be things that are unforeseen - and there's not a huge amount that can be done about that. But there have been times when Hinterland could have communicated better - just told us what is going on. And that has been particularly the case here, on its own forums.

I think that does tend to irk a little bit because unlike the coding and bug solving issues, it doesn't really require an awful lot of effort.

I really like this and I think you make a key point.  I understand incessant complaining and whining may not accomplish anything (sometimes it does - "squeaky wheel gets the grease"), but I also believe that may be due in part to the lack of communication.  When people don't have responses and are left in the dark for weeks or months at a time, they grow more and more anxious (we love the game and are VERY excited about new content!).  There needs to be a release for that anxiety/excitement and different people express that in different ways.

While I appreciate @Raphael van Lierop's response, I don't think it's necessary to tell people how to respond/behave.  Sure, if they are clearly violating forum policies, handle that.  There will always be complainers, let them say their piece.  Read it, ignore it, whatever, and move on.  Stay focused on the overwhelming support and success of your game.  You've done good.

[Raphael van Lierop]

On 10/1/2023 at 8:50 AM, Mistral said:

This may be true, but it's also not helpful that your Steam storepage, Epic storepage, official Hinterland page and FAQ page all still claim that the purchase is a 12-month campaign (+ one of the links also still says 8-10 week update interval)
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2091330/The_Long_Dark_Tales_from_the_Far_Territory/
https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/the-long-dark--tales-from-the-far-territory
https://www.thelongdark.com/expansion/
https://www.thelongdark.com/expansion/faq/

It's also very understandable that not everyone have read a long blog post posted in May. And even if they have, it doesn't mean they have to be happy with it, even if the reasoning is good

Yes, 100% -- the team is behind in updating these but they are working on it. I agree it's very important that the store pages and our site are an accurate source of truth for people who are about to buy the Expansion Pass. For players that already own it and are already brought into the update stream, we try to rely on other tools to supplement that in a more active way: dev diaries, mailing list, social posts, forum updates, and the in-game Messaging system (in the main menu).

[Raphael van Lierop]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:17 AM, hozz1235 said:

I really like this and I think you make a key point.  I understand incessant complaining and whining may not accomplish anything (sometimes it does - "squeaky wheel gets the grease"), but I also believe that may be due in part to the lack of communication.  When people don't have responses and are left in the dark for weeks or months at a time, they grow more and more anxious (we love the game and are VERY excited about new content!).  There needs to be a release for that anxiety/excitement and different people express that in different ways.

While I appreciate @Raphael van Lierop's response, I don't think it's necessary to tell people how to respond/behave.  Sure, if they are clearly violating forum policies, handle that.  There will always be complainers, let them say their piece.  Read it, ignore it, whatever, and move on.  Stay focused on the overwhelming support and success of your game.  You've done good.

I disagree. This community belongs to Hinterland (the studio) as much as it belongs to the player community, we finance it and operate it as part of the functioning of our studio, and how people behave on it (and what we accept) also communicates something about our values as a company. So I think it's entirely appropriate for me to step in and make corrections or express my own dissatisfaction with how things are being framed about our work (ex. we don't work hard, we're money-grabbers, dishonest, etc.) We're the ones setting the tone for what is acceptable in this community, including moderation sure, but also just generally how people talk and feel about the game and how they interact with each other. I was very clear in saying that it's very fine to express your unhappiness with what we have made or how we make it, but then it's also reasonable to move on and not make a thing about it. 

Just because there is overwhelming support for the game, doesn't mean we should ignore this other stuff. That's a very simplistic way of thinking about community, and the work we do.

[Raphael van Lierop]

On 10/1/2023 at 6:40 AM, past caring said:

On the other hand, whilst it is true that Hinterland has always delivered (and that is a major reason for the love) what it really hasn't done well - at least not consistently - is to communicate. Yes there are going to be delays, yes sometimes trying to introduce a new mechanic will result in unexpected bugs, there will be things that are unforeseen - and there's not a huge amount that can be done about that. But there have been times when Hinterland could have communicated better - just told us what is going on. And that has been particularly the case here, on its own forums.

I think that does tend to irk a little bit because unlike the coding and bug solving issues, it doesn't really require an awful lot of effort.

Hey! We communicate when we have something to say. As it happens, this year we've posted either a Release, a Dev Diary, or communications around Hotfixes or Quality of Life more than 20 times since January, including 10 major news items on thelongdark.com. The last major news item was posted before the Sept 13th communication was July 19th, less than 2 months before.

I'm not quite sure what amount of transparency/frequency you are looking for or think is reasonable, but I don't think it's accurate to suggest that we "could have communicated better".

[DaGnome91]

5 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I disagree. This community belongs to Hinterland (the studio) as much as it belongs to the player community, we finance it and operate it as part of the functioning of our studio, and how people behave on it (and what we accept) also communications something about our values as a company. So I think it's entirely appropriate for me to step in and make corrections or express my own dissatisfaction with how things are being framed about our work (ex. we don't work hard, we're money-grabbers, dishonest, etc.) We're the ones setting the tone for what is acceptable in this community, including moderation sure, but also just generally how people talk and feel about the game and how they interact with each other. I was very clear in saying that it's very fine to express your unhappiness with what we have made or how we make it, but then it's also reasonable to move on and not make a thing about it. 

Just because there is overwhelming support for the game, doesn't mean we should ignore this other stuff. That's a very simplistic way of thinking about community, and the work we do.

I completely agree with that, and for my part, the fact that you clearly state you're working "no-crunch" is inducing all of this. I mean, the "no-crunch" statement is not only about how people conceive, develop, even manage projects or a complete program. It's also and mostly (in my opinion) about how you manage your ressources, and the humans under your responsibility in particular.

I have to say your "no-crunch" statement decided me to try your game, and I must say I've been more than impressed by all you've developed as the years went by, especially the last couple of years we've been through !

Bref, please, keep on working like you do, please keep on providing us with whatever you develop, whenever you feel like it's correct enough to deliver it to us ! Cheers to you and your team !

[hozz1235]

1 hour ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I disagree. This community belongs to Hinterland (the studio) as much as it belongs to the player community, we finance it and operate it as part of the functioning of our studio, and how people behave on it (and what we accept) also communicates something about our values as a company. So I think it's entirely appropriate for me to step in and make corrections or express my own dissatisfaction with how things are being framed about our work (ex. we don't work hard, we're money-grabbers, dishonest, etc.) We're the ones setting the tone for what is acceptable in this community, including moderation sure, but also just generally how people talk and feel about the game and how they interact with each other. I was very clear in saying that it's very fine to express your unhappiness with what we have made or how we make it, but then it's also reasonable to move on and not make a thing about it. 

Just because there is overwhelming support for the game, doesn't mean we should ignore this other stuff. That's a very simplistic way of thinking about community, and the work we do.

You're right, this community does belong to HL.  You're entitled to do whatever you want on here.  I would also hope this is somewhere people can express their frustrations (in a reasonable manner), and their love of the game.  Yes, there are many people who are expressing themselves on here but I don't see any spamming.  I think the moderator does an excellent job of, well, moderating!  Yes, the same topics continue to come up, but I also noticed that on the backer site and (if I visited other social media sites), I would imagine you would find the same thing there.

I won't pretend to understand how hard it can be to run a company and see negative comments, but I imagine it would be difficult.  As others have stated here, we LOVE this game, and because of that, we want to provide feedback (both positive and negative).  There are lots of people on this site, and each one may say the same thing in their own way.  Is is repetitive?  Kind of, but it is each person's perspective and I would hope HL reads these and considers them.

I'm not asking you to ignore anything, just maybe try to focus on the overwhelming "good" stuff.  Sometimes, simple is better.

[robin2u]

I had so much fun playing this Signal Void challenge and I am grateful.  There aren't many games that are great for a 73 year old double stroke survivor and yours is the best.  I have actual thousands of hours played and see no end in sight because of the mighty work you put into this very wonderful game.  I can honestly say I love this game, not words I throw around willy-nilly, and I love your team for all the work you do all the time.  I am way old and I do not mind waiting for the quality work you give to me to enjoy so to those who do mind and want you to rush I say "what the heck?  go do something productive to make yourself not so negative."  Those are just my thoughts.

[odizzido]

Not doing crunch is great and I am pleased to know you guys not kotiking like some scummy AAA kotik. It's another reason I like you guys.

[thekillergreece]

Tbf, I understand the frustation about the whole 'broken promise' of 8-10 weeks delivery each update. I was quite hyped (but very skeptical) if they would manage to do that.

Turns out while they did manage to release a new update within 8-10 weeks, it also created lots of bugs with some of them being game breaking bugs (ie. cannot exit interiors anymore due to fishing tackles bug) and so on. I imagine this created stress for the development team to either delay content in order to fix them or keep releasing more content with more bugs that could ruin save games entirely.

So, yes. I'm ok with them taking their sweet time. Nobody wants a game riddled with bugs because a team wanted to release content without polishing it out. The team is small and follows no-crunch policy and we should accept that.

I would like to see more frequent dev blogs instead. 

[UpUpAway95]

Tbf, the gaming industry puts itself in the position of pre-selling things with promises to finish things on a schedule; and then all sorts of things inevitably cause delays to that timetable.  The devs really shouldn't be surprised then that people get frustrated and upset at this practice and that some studios feel compelled to add pressure to their employees (crunch) to get things done.  I also find it hard to believe that the gaming industry is devoid of employees who just don't work as hard as they could during the work day or who don't procrastinate certain tasks to their "too hard" pile to be tackled later.  That's been an issue for employers in virtually all industries for as long as I can remember.  It's a balancing act.  Overall, I think HL has done a good job about communicating things; however, it still stings that it has taken so many more years than I expected to see Episode 5 of Wintermute and now that completion of Tales is also taking longer to complete that initially expected.  That said, I paid my money and there's not much to be done about it other than keep waiting and hope that it does get done sometime.

[Ape88]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:50 AM, Mistral said:

They should just concentrate on
1) Finishing the DLC
2) After that finishing EP5 
3) Then final optimizations, bug fixes and touches to the game + console ports = official finalization of TLD
4) Only then think of the next project(s).

So... you think console players should get the shaft?

Nevermind that consoles SHOULD be simpler to make sure the game works seeing as there aren't umpteen million variations of hardware. 

It blows my mind that we had that Ptarmigan bug.