How did we end up going from 8-10 weeks to 6 months for one update?

[hipsu555]

It was planned to release an update every 8-10 weeks. We know that didn't work out... but how on earth did we end up with 6 months per update?

Part 4 was release on 21. June and part 5 is planned for the end of the year.
That's almost 3x the time planned for each update. How did this happen?

From what I see we will get 1 map + tale, Travois and the first person hands/gloves. That's really not that much content for 6 months of work. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by hipsu555

[Leeanda]

They've had a lot of bugs to sort and fix...  it's perfectly understandable why they're doing them first..   personally I'm glad they are, I think they're much more important than new stuff.

All you have to do is look on the known issues pages and those threads to know how many people want them fixed..

I'm more than happy to wait for the updates if it means that everyone has better gameplay and less issues,some of which are game breaking .

A bit more info from them would've been nice I'll agree .

[DIA]

I'm glad it takes so long for new content to come out! After all, when you wait for a very, very, very long time, frantic interest appears: “What’s there? If they’ve been doing it for so long, it’s probably something very large-scale?!” And when it comes out, you rejoice and run to explore this is what you have been waiting for so long!!!

Than if new content comes out every week! There would be no interest!!!

[hipsu555]

2 hours ago, DIA said:

“What’s there? If they’ve been doing it for so long, it’s probably something very large-scale?!”

We already know what's gonna be there and that it isn't "very large-scale"

They work almost 10 years on this game and have released a dozen of maps, after all this time they should know how long stuff takes (including testing & bug fixes).
I feel like they reduced the team to a bare minimum for whatever reason

[Serenity]

The schedule was overly ambitious from the start. Hinterland always took a lot longer for updates. And they probably underestimated the difficulty and overestimated the benefits of splitting story and survival mode. It introduced a lot of small issues, and maybe even more than what can be seen after release. But other studios would have struggled with this too.

[Mistral]

They're apparently working on numerous other new projects/games simultaneously. RVL even promoted his second-in-command to take charge of TLD while he concentrated on these new efforts. I feel that's the primary mistake they're making and why everything keeps getting delayed all the time, too many eggs in one basket. Well, this and continuous bug fixes that still keep piling up + unrealistic promised timeframes on top of that. Consoles also need million years of optimization and they still haven't managed to pull out the Switch port.  Splitting the survival mode and story mode as separate technical entities was given as explanation why we were supposedly gonna get new updates faster, but obviously that didn't really happen.

They should just concentrate on
1) Finishing the DLC
2) After that finishing EP5 
3) Then final optimizations, bug fixes and touches to the game + console ports = official finalization of TLD
4) Only then think of the next project(s).

Edited September 25, 2023 by Mistral

[rush247]

The whole 8-10 weeks thing was subject to change ("development  realities" as they call it) from the get go.  Why they haven't updated that statement in their advertising is beyond me but anyway they did give an explanation on why they abandoned that plan back in May.

https://www.thelongdark.com/news/dev-diary-may-2023/

[ManicManiac]

Hinterland has given several news/update posts, feedback from Admins, and Dev Diaries... this thread feels as though it was just made to be antagonistic.

(or possibly just created by a poster who hasn't read any of the of the news/updates or dev diaries)

Edited September 25, 2023 by ManicManiac

[hozz1235]

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

Hinterland has given several news/update posts, feedback from Admins, and Dev Diaries... this thread feels as though it was just made to be antagonistic.

(or possibly just created by a poster who hasn't read any of the of the news/updates or dev diaries)

I didn't see it as antagonistic.  I just see someone expressing their frustration.

[DaPepster]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:16 PM, hozz1235 said:

I didn't see it as antagonistic.  I just see someone expressing their frustration.

Agree.  When people put out money for something and it doesn't turn out well due to the seller's pledge and expectations, the buyer has a right to be upset.

[ManicManiac]

I'd say that Hinterland has given me nine years of a wonderful game (and likely for many more years to come).

A game that's been greatly updated, expanded upon, and continues to grow far above and beyond what I've ever gotten for my money with any other game.  Even between the game itself, two soundtrack volumes, and The Far Territory DLC... I've still paid far less than most games I have in my library.

I know there are some folks here who seem to like "throwing stones" when they feel they are not getting what they expect fast enough, and sure... folks have the right to feel however they want about it.  However, I think some of the rather harsh assumptions and accusations are rather unwarranted (given what Hinterland has already provided over the years and show no signs of stopping).

It's not like Hinterland has abandoned the game, took the money, and ran... they have not.
(there are several examples in the Kickstarter/Early Access ecosystem where that was precisely what happened)

Hinterland has been continuing to show and communicate their plans, work, and intentions throughout the years.
I suppose for some, Hinterland may not communicate enough for it to suit some folk's apparent feeling of entitlement... but they do communicate with us.

From what I see, they work hard to deliver on their plans the best that they can, and it's clear to me that they work to fix issues as quickly as they can when things don't go to plan.  We can't know all the issues and challenges they face... I think it's evident that the team is doing the best they can.

I feel that Hinterland has earned a lot of good will.  To me, they more than deserve the benefit of the doubt.


I understand that some feel upset, but I'd also encourage folks to take in a little perspective...

I've said my peace... I'm not interested in being drawn into any protracted arguments about it.
If we don't agree, that's okay.   

Edited September 27, 2023 by ManicManiac

[odizzido]

It's not entitlement if you've paid for something that was not delivered as advertised. Hinterland has a history of underdelivering in terms of time frame and that's on hinterland, not on the people who have paid them for the work. Canadians should be double upset with them as we have paid for the game twice now.

That being said I personally am glad they're taking time to do things as well as they can. I am perfectly happy to wait for a better product, and I am not personally bothered by the delays. As long as the final product is good I will be happy and I will be more likely to consider buying their next game.

 

edit----------

Actually thinking about it I realize maybe some people do sound entitled....but that's justly so because they're entitled to the thing they paid for which was not delivered as advertised.

Edited September 27, 2023 by odizzido

[Leeanda]

Every few months someone starts a thread just like this one..regardless of how long ago the update or fixes were.. 

It usually ends up as an argument that  gets shut down or it dies out but I'm not sure what's to be gained by writing these threads..

As for mobilising hinterland to change how they do things ,well.. that's not for us to do..  they work hard and produce content when they are ready to..

As it should be....  

 

[ManicManiac]

3 hours ago, James Hickok said:

PPL have the right to state their feelings

And I said as much. 
But I think it's bad form to start trying to get hostile just because another opinion won't acquiesce or capitulate.
I wasn't pointing out anyone in particular... why do you assume I was talking about you?   

 

3 hours ago, James Hickok said:

Anyway it's clear for me from some time now that we "dont agree" and thats ok.

If you really felt it was okay... they why continue to try and pick fights?
I'm not going to take the bait.  

Anyway... as I said, I'm not going to be drawn into any protracted arguments about it.
As I mentioned before, I said my peace... and I stand by it.   

Edited September 27, 2023 by ManicManiac

[hozz1235]

6 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

If we don't agree, that's okay.

This.  But you didn't say this in your initial response.  Why not just say how you feel and not tell others how they should feel or label/judge them with words such as antagonistic.

 

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

hostile

That is your interpretation.  Perhaps it is just how they choose/know how to express themselves.

[ManicManiac]

@hozz1235
Again... I'm not taking the bait.  
I'm not going to be arguing with you either.

It's the Admins who get to judge the comments on this forum... not me or anyone else.
As always, I defer to them.  



 

Edited September 27, 2023 by ManicManiac

[hozz1235]

@ManicManiac, no one is baiting you.  We're just replying, stating our opinions.

[Leeanda]

5 minutes ago, James Hickok said:

Well Leeanda in the end ofc they decide how they run the business but who else than the customers can influence the company to change for better? Dont You think?

How do you know that for fact? Its just your opinion not facts. 

When they advertise a product and charge money for it they make a contract with the customer to deliver. I dont see them produce when they are ready for after that tbh as you stated. Ofc I personally got over it and will w8 no problem but from a business point of view... well thats my opinion. 

Dont get me wrong i have a lot of respect for the team and their work. I love the game As much As you @ManicManiac and @Leeanda

No offence but I'm not going to get stuck into this debate..  I have enough real life crap going on at the moment..

But are you suggesting that they don't work hard and only put out content when they can be bothered to?  

I bought the dlc and I can't even go to forsaken airfield and I'm not complaining.. sure I'm disappointed a bit but that's not their fault and I'm not demanding they change anything..

I'm not going to say anything else on this.. 

 I'm  off to play this beautiful stunning game and maybe kill a moose or two..

[ManicManiac]

@Leeanda

[Kranium]

This place hasn't changed much lol

[Mistral]

2 hours ago, Kranium said:

This place hasn't changed much lol

True

Neither has Hinterland lol

[Leeanda]

3 hours ago, James Hickok said:

Ofc - You dont have to. I was not trying to make You upset. 

Sorry to hear that  

I didnt suggest anything - You did. I was just asking how do you know that for fact? 

I feel like i expressed my opinion enough as well. 

Good luck and watch out for stomping xD 

Thank you .. but you didn't..  

 

I did say though that I thought they did work hard, it was you who said I might be wrong.

Pesky moose never show up when you want one😊

[Leeanda]

13 minutes ago, James Hickok said:

Yeah tell me about it. I just crafted a bow y-day on my new run (previous ended in me sleeping in a cave for 7 hours and was 100 sure my 10% warmth bonus from clothes will suffice - froze to death.) and would love to get one i ML where i am atm on day 10. If i dont find one i just go to AC for the backpack and in most cases i find one in TWM or AC. 

The only one I can guarantee to find  is in bleak..  .. 

Doesn't the satchel spawn in hrv on loper?

[hipsu555]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:20 AM, ManicManiac said:

From what I see, they work hard to deliver on their plans the best that they can

What makes you think they work hard?
First thing when opening the game is you see is disclaimer about no crunch.  A bit of crunch is sometimes helpful, especially when you're already way behind on schedule. They choose to sell a 12-month expansion pass, not us. After so much time working on the game they should know what they are capable of and what not. 

[Raphael van Lierop]

Hey all,

Those of you who are frustrated by our development progress -- it's duly noted. We hear it, have heard it, and I don't think it's that helpful or useful to continue to talk about it over and over. Make your complaint, then move on. 

For TALES specifically and the abandonment of the 10-12 week cycle: I outlined reasoning in this dev diary. It was forthcoming and honest and I'm not sure what else you want. Complaining about it more isn't going to bring the updates out any faster.

In terms of TALES, Part Four. The full list of features and content is deeper than the few things I mentioned in the last dev diary, so the OP's frustration with what they felt is a short list of things, is misplaced. This is par for the course with us -- we never reveal the full list of features until we launch the update, because it's fun to surprise people. Wait until you see the update and then you can complain if you aren't happy. There's a lot in there. 

In terms of the sniping about the "No Crunch" disclaimer at the beginning of the game. It's super sad to me how some people have chosen to weaponize this. If you knew anything about the game industry, you would know how poorly it generally treats its employees. A lot of people come to Hinterland from triple-A after having been horribly mistreated by other studios -- we're talking work that scarred people with physical and mental health issues they are still dealing with. I did 12 years in triple-A before starting Hinterland, so I understand what crunch is. You throw it around like it's a good thing, "a bit of crunch is sometimes helpful". You don't know what you are talking about. My team's health is more important than your misplaced sense of entitlement.

With our "no crunch" disclaimer, we're trying to set a precedent for saying that it's not healthy to crunch people, it should be possible to make good games without doing that, and I felt it was important to put our values right out there at the beginning of the game. You don't have to like our values, but don't feel we owe you "crunch" and harming our health just because you feel upset you won't get an update when you thought you were entitled to it. To me, it's no different from seeing a "free range" or "organic" or "union made" type label on a product you buy in a store. You then have some idea of the environment and philosophy that drove its creation, and how the people around it were treated. I think it's important to put our values into the world, which is why I added that statement. I hope more game studios choose to do that, and more players choose to specifically buy games from developers who prioritize the health and wellbeing of their employees, vs. the sickening crunch culture that is part of the industrial game development process that destroys people for better quarterly earnings. If you don't care about people or understand the importance of managing your health and resources, you really haven't learned anything from playing THE LONG DARK.

The rest of you who continue to support our work, and give us the "benefit of the doubt" about deadlines and deliveries -- thank you for that. I'll be the first to say we haven't had a good track record of delivering things when we thought we would, and that's mostly my fault, but also the way things sometimes go, and ultimately we do deliver what we say we will deliver, we always have. That's what we're focused on. We appreciate you, because you have always understood that how we make things at Hinterland is a big part of what makes them special.

- Raph