Starting fresh and abolishing save scumming

[GarlicPops]

A while back I posted a topic (here) regarding the fact that I abused save scumming and I asked the community's opinions about it. While most of you were very respectful and recognized that this is a valid way to play the game, most of you claimed that it takes away  the fun and would rather not do it. After careful consideration I decided to abolish save scumming and started a new sandbox were I would base at the clothing bunker in Pleasant Valley. Right now I'm at day 41 in my new stalker survival sandbox and I can say I'm having a lot of fun playing without the safety of save scumming, it's being a nice learning experience for me and I'll see how far I can get.

The only situation where I decided to allow myself to save scum is to avoid clothing repair fails. I personally hate the fact that you lose both the materials and sewing kit/tackle durability in a repair fail and that it is completely dependent on RNG, I really dislike the idea of losing 5 precious cloth in a row purely because of bad luck, in my opinion this is beyond the players control and skill and I don't feel like scumming this away is all that impactful for the immersion and challenge.

Me and my new base at PV above.

[ManicManiac]

Well done

Good luck on your newest adventure!

[UpUpAway95]

You can play however you want... the idea is to enjoy however it is you're playing.  I got the impression from your earlier post that you were the one feeling guilty about it.

You will ultimately find that there is ample cloth and sewing materials (including fishing tackle) available that an average number of fails at sewing won't matter that much even on the lowest resource settings. There is a lot of RNG in this game... e.g. fails at fire starts, whether or not the wind changes when you've got a fire going outside, when an aurora happens, how much you find in each container, how many loose items you find, and even what is or isn't a critical hit on an animal, what sort of damage is done when you're attacked, when you get a sprain or another ailment, etc.  The odds of some of them can be altered using different custom settings, but the game simply isn't designed to put everything within the player's control.

Edited December 28, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[GarlicPops]

1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

You can play however you want... the idea is to enjoy however it is you're playing.  I got the impression from your earlier post that you were the one feeling guilty about it.

You will ultimately find that there is ample cloth and sewing materials (including fishing tackle) available that an average number of fails at sewing won't matter that much even on the lowest resource settings. There is a lot of RNG in this game... e.g. fails at fire starts, whether or not the wind changes when you've got a fire going outside, when an aurora happens, how much you find in each container, how many loose items you find, and even what is or isn't a critical hit on an animal, what sort of damage is done when you're attacked, when you get a sprain or another ailment, etc.  The odds of some of them can be altered using different custom settings, but the game simply isn't designed to put everything within the player's control.

I agree with you, however stuff like critical hits on animals and weather changes is something you can prepare to. Things like stripping naked to preserve your clothes while hunting for bears, always carrying materials for a snow shelter, always staying above 80% condition while walking around wolf areas and stockpiling supplies while waiting for an aurora in BI are things that the player can do to minimize RNG. Even fires aren't that big of a deal since the lens exist, however cloth is 100% non renewable if you don't consider beachcombing and there is nothing the player can do to "prepare" for a repair fail aside from just crossing your fingers or accepting the wasted materials and durability, so for this reason I'd rather scum that away.

[UpUpAway95]

11 hours ago, GarlicPops said:

I agree with you, however stuff like critical hits on animals and weather changes is something you can prepare to. Things like stripping naked to preserve your clothes while hunting for bears, always carrying materials for a snow shelter, always staying above 80% condition while walking around wolf areas and stockpiling supplies while waiting for an aurora in BI are things that the player can do to minimize RNG. Even fires aren't that big of a deal since the lens exist, however cloth is 100% non renewable if you don't consider beachcombing and there is nothing the player can do to "prepare" for a repair fail aside from just crossing your fingers or accepting the wasted materials and durability, so for this reason I'd rather scum that away.

What I'm saying is Hinterland, through the custom menu, has granted the player the ability to adjust the odds of RNG-generated happenings in this game to their liking.  That's all.  You don't have to save scum; which does interrupt your gameplay while the game reloads.  I'm not making any moral judgment here.  Whether or not you save scum and for whatever reasons do it are totally your business.  It's your game.  If you're enjoying it... great, right on, have fun, etc.  All I'm doing is saying there are alternatives that you may or may not be aware of to adjust things if you're not enjoying it.  The ability to "play around with" the RNG settings in this game in order to both make the game harder or easier or just different is greater than for any other game I've played.  I applaud Hinterland for giving us that sort of flexibility. That's all.

There is a tremendous amount of cloth built into the game world's settings - curtains, chairs (both sofa'like and the ones with the red seats), pillows, rugs and blankets that are left hanging around).  These are always there regardless of your settings.  Then, there are RNG sources - clothes and bits of cloth you find in containers.  Even on Loper, it's basically impossible to run right out of cloth.  In addition, the clothes you craft generally require hides to repair rather than cloth, so you use less of it as the you progress through the game.

Edited December 28, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[Dr. S.]

11 hours ago, GarlicPops said:

Even fires aren't that big of a deal since the lens exist, however cloth is 100% non renewable if you don't consider beachcombing and there is nothing the player can do to "prepare" for a repair fail aside from just crossing your fingers or accepting the wasted materials and durability, so for this reason I'd rather scum that away.

You are worrying about something (running out of cloth) that will never happen in one of your runs. In order to get to skill level 5 in mending for the skilled survivor achievement, I spent weeks of in-game time repairing anything that dropped to 99%. When that was taking too long I went around finding old clothes in containers, mending them to 100%, then breaking them down. Even with all that, I never came close to running out of cloth. Just let it go.

[odizzido]

My most recent game of STALKER: Anomaly I am going through playing that when I die I die. I play a lot of games like that as I find it makes the game much more enjoyable. And it really does impact how you play. Suddenly jumping those bandits to try to get their loot doesn't look like a great idea unless you have an advantageous spot.

[past caring]

On 12/28/2020 at 3:22 PM, Dr. S. said:

You are worrying about something (running out of cloth) that will never happen in one of your runs. In order to get to skill level 5 in mending for the skilled survivor achievement, I spent weeks of in-game time repairing anything that dropped to 99%. When that was taking too long I went around finding old clothes in containers, mending them to 100%, then breaking them down. Even with all that, I never came close to running out of cloth. Just let it go.

Whilst you're doubtless right when taking the game as a whole, I've certainly encountered situations on certain maps where cloth can be at a premium. I know the game is not supposed to be a simulation, but anyone who has ever tried to turn their hand to sewing, however inexpertly, knows that a bad repair is simply that; the repair may not hold, it may rip again sooner than if you'd done a better job etc. but you don't lose the entire cloth and certainly not 3, 4, 5 pieces of cloth in a row.

It's similar to the business with fires. As I've said before, I can accept that a change in wind direction and force might blow my fire out; but if I've set a 10 hour fire and the wind blows it out after 1, how has the remaining 9 hours worth of fuel been consumed?

[UpUpAway95]

54 minutes ago, past caring said:

Whilst you're doubtless right when taking the game as a whole, I've certainly encountered situations on certain maps where cloth can be at a premium. I know the game is not supposed to be a simulation, but anyone who has ever tried to turn their hand to sewing, however inexpertly, knows that a bad repair is simply that; the repair may not hold, it may rip again sooner than if you'd done a better job etc. but you don't lose the entire cloth and certainly not 3, 4, 5 pieces of cloth in a row.

It's similar to the business with fires. As I've said before, I can accept that a change in wind direction and force might blow my fire out; but if I've set a 10 hour fire and the wind blows it out after 1, how has the remaining 9 hours worth of fuel been consumed?

It's similar to a dice roll in any game...  it's entirely possible to roll snake eyes all day long (however unlikely and unlucky)... which means TLD is a game, nothing more.

[past caring]

Which is what I said.....

But perhaps I need to express it another way for the hard of thinking;

Chance that something you do will not succeed = dice roll = maybe your attempt fails.

Example - clothing repair, you fail and the sewing kit degrades and the cloth disappears.

Example - you try to light a fire, you fail and you've spent a match and whatever wood/stick/book you were using disappears.

Of course, in the game, only the cloth disappears - not the wood/stick etc.

I'm not suggesting there shouldn't be a chance of failure, nor that a failed attempt shouldn't degrade your sewing kit. I'm questioning the rational basis for having the cloth disappear, especially when other materials don't - or perhaps, more accurately, why a failed attempt at a repair should automatically mean the cloth disappears. Why not have a dice roll for your at least being able to retain the cloth, even if the repair didn't succeed?

 

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, past caring said:

Which is what I said.....

But perhaps I need to express it another way for the hard of thinking;

Chance that something you do will not succeed = dice roll = maybe your attempt fails.

Example - clothing repair, you fail and the sewing kit degrades and the cloth disappears.

Example - you try to light a fire, you fail and you've spent a match and whatever wood/stick/book you were using disappears.

Of course, in the game, only the cloth disappears - not the wood/stick etc.

I'm not suggesting there shouldn't be a chance of failure, nor that a failed attempt shouldn't degrade your sewing kit. I'm questioning the rational basis for having the cloth disappear, especially when other materials don't - or perhaps, more accurately, why a failed attempt at a repair should automatically mean the cloth disappears. Why not have a dice roll for your at least being able to retain the cloth, even if the repair didn't succeed?

 

The match and tinder disappear... so the effect is there pretty much the same as sewing at the earlier skill levels.  There are also likely some compensations to the "odds" built into the likelihood of finding cloth vs. finding matches.  You can argue that the magnifying glass and leveling up firestartng circumvents this comparison, but hides and guts in the game are infinite and scrap metal (the other requirement for repairing/making clothing is ridiculously common in the game world overall.  There are also probably numeric differences in the "odds" of getting a failure starting a fire vs. sewing... although I'm not sure if the odds of success at sewing ever get to 100% at the higher levels.  It might... it's just been a long time since I've worked to get sewing up above Level 3.  The odds of starting a fire with just a stick, I believe, never get higher than 95%... with a book or accelerant, it's 100%, but books are a finite resource as much as cloth is.  Lantern fuel (which can substitute as accelerant), however is infinite.

The amount of any given resource can be abundant in some zones and not abundant in others... some of that is also random depending on what you get in containers and what rolls up on the beaches.  All in all, my point is that it's something that is not as out of balance as your simplified comparison of only one of the factors involved in the dice role would make it out to be.  I've never had a problem regarding running out of cloth in any run overall... and I've never had to even resort to harvesting it from chairs, old bedrolls or pillows yet.  Still, thios does seem to be an obsessive fear for many players.

So, let's say they change it so we keep the cloth... and then rebalance the game by eliminating some of the sources of cloth in the game world... sya, metal chairs... which would also reduce the over availability of scrap metal... etc.

ETA:  Here's a different idea - Whenever a failed repair occurs, the player is given the option of taking more time to undo the attempted repair and recover the cloth.  This takes the same amount of time again as the initial repair and further degrades the condition of the clothing an additional 1% (representing damage done to the threads of the original garment when ripping out the stitches involved in tacking the cloth to the garment.  If the player opts not to undo the repair, the cloth is lost (presumably still attached to the garment, just not effective as an improvement to the condition of the garment).

Edited December 29, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[gotmilkanot]

Back when Mystery Lake was the only region in the game, running out of cloth was indeed one of the issues for long-term survival. So worrying about it actually makes sense back then.

But now, I'd say there are way too much loot/resources in the game even on Interloper - more than enough to last before you quit playing that save file out of boredom. Beachcombing is also a thing, so stuff like cloth, leather and scrap metal are technically no longer finite. If you're running out of those, it simply means you aren't looking hard enough.

Edited December 30, 2020 by gotmilkanot

[past caring]

On 12/29/2020 at 6:05 PM, UpUpAway95 said:

ETA:  Here's a different idea - Whenever a failed repair occurs, the player is given the option of taking more time to undo the attempted repair and recover the cloth.  This takes the same amount of time again as the initial repair and further degrades the condition of the clothing an additional 1% (representing damage done to the threads of the original garment when ripping out the stitches involved in tacking the cloth to the garment.  If the player opts not to undo the repair, the cloth is lost (presumably still attached to the garment, just not effective as an improvement to the condition of the garment).

I think that's a really good idea - and one I believe would work and be a good alternative to the way it works currently.

As I've said, the issue is not so much any shortage of cloth in the game overall - and certainly once a player gets themselves past the first 5 - 7 days isn't going to be an issue.

But the "disappearing cloth" can be a real problem at the beginning in some situations, even on easier difficulties......

I've got a recent Voyageur start in TWM where I had a lucky spawn so I was able to reach the summit on the first day. And found an expedition parka, fisherman's sweater and hiking boots in the tail section - but none of those were above 35% condition and so no better than my poor quality clothing without repair. I couldn't leave the hunting rifle at the summit and without a well-fed buff or moose hide satchel, couldn't loot any of the clothing that may have been in the containers on the descent to the climber's hut. And there's nothing in the climber's hut to harvest for cloth.....

I ended up harvesting a one of my two pairs of socks, thermal underwear and running shoes to carry out the repairs. But 4 failed attempts at repair in succession left me without those items and with the parka etc. in the same state as I'd found them. I'm now thinking I may have to 'retreat' to Pleasant Valley - but that's hardly a retreat when it's a new area and just as hostile as TWM.

By contrast, a character who is just as much of a novice at sewing and repairs will be able to successfully harvest a deerskin and guts from a ravaged deer (100% of the time) cure the necessary materials (100% of the time) and craft a pair of deerskin pants or boots (100% of the time). The crucial 'skill' in that crafting is sewing/needlework - but a character that might well fail to repair a wool toque 3-4 times in succession will be able to craft those deerskin pants or boots without fail.....

[Mistral]

On 12/29/2020 at 6:12 PM, past caring said:

It's similar to the business with fires. As I've said before, I can accept that a change in wind direction and force might blow my fire out; but if I've set a 10 hour fire and the wind blows it out after 1, how has the remaining 9 hours worth of fuel been consumed?

It doesn't make sense irl, but nor does it make sense that one can make a magical 10 hour fire without having to refill it in between, so it kinda balances itself out.

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, past caring said:

I think that's a really good idea - and one I believe would work and be a good alternative to the way it works currently.

As I've said, the issue is not so much any shortage of cloth in the game overall - and certainly once a player gets themselves past the first 5 - 7 days isn't going to be an issue.

But the "disappearing cloth" can be a real problem at the beginning in some situations, even on easier difficulties......

I've got a recent Voyageur start in TWM where I had a lucky spawn so I was able to reach the summit on the first day. And found an expedition parka, fisherman's sweater and hiking boots in the tail section - but none of those were above 35% condition and so no better than my poor quality clothing without repair. I couldn't leave the hunting rifle at the summit and without a well-fed buff or moose hide satchel, couldn't loot any of the clothing that may have been in the containers on the descent to the climber's hut. And there's nothing in the climber's hut to harvest for cloth.....

I ended up harvesting a one of my two pairs of socks, thermal underwear and running shoes to carry out the repairs. But 4 failed attempts at repair in succession left me without those items and with the parka etc. in the same state as I'd found them. I'm now thinking I may have to 'retreat' to Pleasant Valley - but that's hardly a retreat when it's a new area and just as hostile as TWM.

By contrast, a character who is just as much of a novice at sewing and repairs will be able to successfully harvest a deerskin and guts from a ravaged deer (100% of the time) cure the necessary materials (100% of the time) and craft a pair of deerskin pants or boots (100% of the time). The crucial 'skill' in that crafting is sewing/needlework - but a character that might well fail to repair a wool toque 3-4 times in succession will be able to craft those deerskin pants or boots without fail.....

I usually harvest whatever clothing I don't intend to use... turning it into cloth to make it weigh less.  I'll also repair what I consider most urgeht while still up at the summit.  I agree though that, on Interloper at least, the amount of cloth even at the summit can be somewhat scarce in the early going... however, in Voyageur there was probably ample clothing up at the summit to turn into cloth to attempt several repairs.  There is also usually some clothing in one of the containers in Echo Ravine.  If I do fail to get my repairs in at the Summit, I'll head for that container first and harvest what I find there as well... then, if all else fails, I'll head  into Pleasant Valley's plane crash where more clothing can usually be found in relative abundance.  Generally, I don't sacrifice items of clothing I'm wearing to try to repair other clothing.  I'll risk wearing the low condition stuff until I find cloth and/or sewing supplies to make repairs.

[odizzido]

8 hours ago, Mistral said:

It doesn't make sense irl, but nor does it make sense that one can make a magical 10 hour fire without having to refill it in between, so it kinda balances itself out.

I always assumed it was so you didn't have to micromanage the fire which would be tedious. Also a big problem with the game is for example reading. You can't read for 59mins and 59 seconds and then take a second to throw a stick on the fire because you would forget everything you just read and have to start from the beginning. Tending a fire and reading a book in TLD would be far more difficult than it should be.

Also the fires should explode like a bomb when they instantly burn 8hrs of fuel just to keep them more realistic.

[Mistral]

16 hours ago, odizzido said:

I always assumed it was so you didn't have to micromanage the fire which would be tedious. Also a big problem with the game is for example reading. You can't read for 59mins and 59 seconds and then take a second to throw a stick on the fire because you would forget everything you just read and have to start from the beginning. Tending a fire and reading a book in TLD would be far more difficult than it should be.

Also the fires should explode like a bomb when they instantly burn 8hrs of fuel just to keep them more realistic.

The reading system should be like "how many minutes would you like to read?" And then you slide to whatever you want from 1 to 60, and it saves the progress

But yes the fire system is for convenience. Now, even with those marathon fires I can pretend to myself that the survivalist is still background-refueling the fire all the time when she's next to it, but what's really immersion breaking is when she can take that 12 hour beauty sleep without having to wake up and the fire is still fine.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Mistral

[UpUpAway95]

1 hour ago, Mistral said:

The reading system should be like "how many minutes would you like to read?" And then you slide to whatever you want from 1 to 60, and it saves the progress

But yes the fire system is for convenience. Now, even with those marathon fires I can pretend to myself that the survivalist is still background-refueling the fire all the time when she's next to it, but what's really immersion breaking is when she can take that 12 hour beauty sleep without having to wake up and the fire is still fine.

Duplicated by accident... see below.

Edited January 3, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[UpUpAway95]

1 hour ago, Mistral said:

The reading system should be like "how many minutes would you like to read?" And then you slide to whatever you want from 1 to 60, and it saves the progress

But yes the fire system is for convenience. Now, even with those marathon fires I can pretend to myself that the survivalist is still background-refueling the fire all the time when she's next to it, but what's really immersion breaking is when she can take that 12 hour beauty sleep without having to wake up and the fire is still fine.

The level of immersion you play in is within your control, though.  If you find long fires immersion breaking, don't build long fires.  Go to sleep nest to a 2 hr 10 min fire and sleep for only 2 hours... wake up, restock the fire to another 2 hr 10 min and go back to sleep for 2 more hours... and suffer the extra wear and tear on your bedroll and the lesser amount of restored condition instead.  Ditto for reading... read in 1 hour intervals when you're sure you have an hour of daylight.  Yeah, you'll slow the game down and cause yourself more clicks; but your progress will get saved.  There is nothing stopping you from playing your game in ways you find more immersive just because other people can take advantage of certain conveniences built into the UI.

Edited January 3, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[catbug]

To be honest, I never save scum EXCEPT for in Interloper. And even in that difficulty, save scumming just means quickly exiting the game before it saves during a wolf/bear attack and deletes your save file 😂

Edited January 6, 2021 by catbug

[Sus-wolf]

I am somewhat new to the game and I am currently coming up on day 50. 
I generally stay away from interfering with how the game is “supposed to be played” but I have done “save scumming” before and it was when I has been attacked by a moose in ash valley but had no clue where I was. I think the important thing is to play it the way you have fun but to also explore other play styles. I’m thinking after day 50 I’m going to start over so that I can say I did 50 without shutting the game off a bunch of times. 😆 sorry for long post 🥔

[JaySovereign]

What is save scumming? Can someone explain it to me?

[Sarnian]

Is repair success purely down to the quoted chance? I've noticed that if I try repairing clothes at the end of a day when I'm down to my last 25% energy, that I invariably fail, while I tend to be luckier early in the day. Not sure if this is just good/bad luck or if there are other factors at play.

 

[Stinky socks]

On 1/10/2021 at 5:39 PM, JaySovereign said:

What is save scumming? Can someone explain it to me?

I just read through the whole thing and have the same question..

And some people take this game way too seriously😁

[piddy3825]

On 12/27/2020 at 4:44 PM, GarlicPops said:

 

The only situation where I decided to allow myself to save scum is to avoid clothing repair fails.

 

LOL,

I'd be the first guy to agree that you should be able to do what you wanna do and play how you wanna play, but hey that exception made me guffaw so loudly I scared my dogs!  Repair failure is so much an elementary part of the game as well, that now I'd argue your doing yourself a disservice by not taking your lumps as the game wants to dish them out.    at any rate, play the game your way...

check out my post on dying by excessive repair...