why are houses warm?

[dbldrew]

not sure why the inside of houses are warm with no heat. I can understand not having a wind chill but the inside temperature should be the same as outside unless you have a fire going.

Which brings me to why dont they change it so you do need fire to keep warm even inside. to balance it all the sticks and logs would put out more heat and last much longer. And it could also be once the house is warm it would take several hours to drop down again once the fire is out. so say a 5 hour fire will keep the house above freezing for 8ish hours. At least on the harder difficulty like stalker..

 

 

[sarudak]

Well... I imagine houses would settle somewhere between the average external air temperature and the ground temperature which is going to be a fair bit higher than the air temp during winter. That said I think houses are quite a bit too warm.

[MarrowStone]

The houses used to be much colder but they changed it in order to make it easier on beginner players. This was because only a few houses have an internal fireplace. 

I wish they brought back the cold houses in stalker.

[MarrowStone]

It used to be that you could freeze in a lake cabin with starting clothes even while sleeping in a bed.

[Muk_Pile]

Yeah, I guess the only building that has the real threat of freezing you to death while you sleep is the Mountaineer's Hut on top of Timberwolf Mountain.  I too would like it if a majority of the buildings in TDL had lower indoor temperatures, though I wouldn't want their indoor temperatures to fluctuate quite as much as the Mountaineer's Hut, if at all. 

I also feel that such changes should only be applied to Voyager and Stalker (base temperatures lowered by 4^oF to 8^oF and 8^oF to 16^oF, respectively), while the building temperatures in Pilgrim would remain unchanged as to keep it new player friendly.

[Boston123]

Because most houses that people live in all year (so, not the lakeside fishing cabins) will be insulated, and therefore warmer even without a heat source?

[dbldrew]

10 minutes ago, Boston123 said:

Because most houses that people live in all year (so, not the lakeside fishing cabins) will be insulated, and therefore warmer even without a heat source?

it certainly will retain the heat longer because of insulation.. but without a heat source it will drop down to the same outside temp. my garage is fully insulated and unless im running the heater it is the same temp as the outside temp.. 

[MarrowStone]

3 hours ago, Muk_Pile said:

Yeah, I guess the only building that has the real threat of freezing you to death while you sleep is the Mountaineer's Hut on top of Timberwolf Mountain.  I too would like it if a majority of the buildings in TDL had lower indoor temperatures, though I wouldn't want their indoor temperatures to fluctuate quite as much as the Mountaineer's Hut, if at all. 

I also feel that such changes should only be applied to Voyager and Stalker (base temperatures lowered by 4^oF to 8^oF and 8^oF to 16^oF, respectively), while the building temperatures in Pilgrim would remain unchanged as to keep it new player friendly.

Yes, i totally agree

[Dirmagnos]

It would be logical for houses having lower temperatures, maybe a few degrees above outside temperatures. But it should be compensated by proper heat retainment feature when using stoves. One good 2-3 hour burn(dependent of fuel used) should keep house warm for next 24 hours, with temperature gradually falling. Maybe an option for further insulation, adding use for all those hides.

And dont even get me started on those magical caves.

[MarrowStone]

6 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

And dont even get me started on those magical caves.

Good description on the house's temperature dynamics.

However the caves arent magical, Caves actually are warmer than outside temperatures and have nearly constant temperatures all year.

The temperature itself depends on the mean earth temperature of the location (the mean ground temperature at a certain depth). For example here in iowa our mean earth temperature is 52 degrees F (11.1 C). Which means deep enough in our caves, it will be way above freezing all year. (Our winters have seen -16 f (-26 C) days ). 

finding the mean earth temperature in the long dark is iffy and complex so i may be wrong, but lets just say that we use the freezing index in degree days at 6000, which is around 4 meters in frost (depending on soil compisotion). That means any cave below 4 meters will be above freezing. Resulting in a mean earth temperature you wont freeze in! (I couldnt find the mean due to not knowing what the temperature was in the summer) Caves arent magical its science! (Not being mean here, just being  informative.)

[MarrowStone]

For resources i used to find this :

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/EarthTemperatures.htm

http://www.urecon.com/applications/municipal_ambient_below.html

 

Again im no expert and this could be a hig misinterpretation.

Plus im referring to the caves that require loading screens to enter

[Vinceofpyrenees]

I've worked on a cave ('gulf" ?) as touristic guide. It's in the french pyrennees at about 700meters altitude. The temperature was always at 13°C.

 

For houses, i'm agrre they are too warm, or at least they are not enough fluctuations according with the outside weather.

[MarrowStone]

15 minutes ago, Vinceofpyrenees said:

I've worked on a cave ('gulf" ?) as touristic guide. It's in the french pyrennies at about 700meters altitude. The temperature was always at 13°C.

 

For houses, i'm agrre they are too warm, or at least they are not enough fluctuations according with the outside weather.

Oh thats cool! Our caves in iowa are at 11°C, is it pretty warm there you say? We are at 180 meters roughly

[Dirmagnos]

Yes, i agree about those points about long deep caves. I was referring to those shallow open ones, with stone floor. Yet player can make one step and temp rises from freezing to fairly comfortable.

[dbldrew]

a cave would have to be pretty deep to be significantly warmer then the air temp (other then no wind chill), the non loading caves in TLD would still be way below freezing  

[Ohbal]

I agree on the heating mechanics for indoors. Heat should remain for longer, and you should find those spaces with a temperature similar to the outside one. 

In fact, it would be great that each location had a different ruleset (inside vs outside temp, time to warm up, how much time this warm last... etc.), so huts, cabins, houses, those-container-like thingies, basements, caves... they would all feel different. 

And on the cave-specific topic, I also agree: I think open, "non-loading" caves should be adjusted to give just a small temp bonus.

This is not to make them useless, but to make the gameplay more interesting. The advantage of the cave should be basically that you can safely build a fire inside without worrying about the wind putting it down while you sleep... this protects you from freezing and prevents animal attacks... which I'd is already a great thing!

[Pillock]

I've said this before, but I think the game would be better for having buildings -and beds- deteriorate over time. That way, it wouldn't hurt you so much at the start of the game (for beginners, as well) while most of the shelters are in decent nick, but it would provide another factor in the survival balance in the longer term.

Currently, of the 4 main health statuses, only food is at all difficult to acquire: a house with a bed provides permanent warmth and permanent rest; and if there is a stove, water-making capability is also assured as long as you collect fuel, because you don't have to worry about weather conditions affecting your fire. That's 3/4 basic survival requirements satisfied without the player ever having to actually do anything at all (except find it... once).

Implementation of deterioration and repair would redress this to an extent: the lower the building's condition, the closer the ambient temp would be to the outdoor one. In the case of beds, it could lower the amount of warmth you get while resting, and perhaps even lower the quality of rest-recovery?

[togg]

4 hours ago, Pillock said:

I've said this before, but I think the game would be better for having buildings -and beds- deteriorate over time. That way, it wouldn't hurt you so much at the start of the game (for beginners, as well) while most of the shelters are in decent nick, but it would provide another factor in the survival balance in the longer term.

Currently, of the 4 main health statuses, only food is at all difficult to acquire: a house with a bed provides permanent warmth and permanent rest; and if there is a stove, water-making capability is also assured as long as you collect fuel, because you don't have to worry about weather conditions affecting your fire. That's 3/4 basic survival requirements satisfied without the player ever having to actually do anything at all (except find it... once).

Implementation of deterioration and repair would redress this to an extent: the lower the building's condition, the closer the ambient temp would be to the outdoor one. In the case of beds, it could lower the amount of warmth you get while resting, and perhaps even lower the quality of rest-recovery?

That's basically a different game we are talking about.

[Ruruwawa]

4 hours ago, togg said:

That's basically a different game we are talking about.

Dunno.  We have bedroll wear/repair and snow shelter wear/repair already.

[epitaxial]

I wondered this as well.  Back when I lived in a mobile home in South Dakota during the winter.  If the pilot light went out during the night - the inside the "house" would drop to the same temperature as the outside which would wake me up.  I think the inside of a house should only be a few degrees warmer than the outside temperature...

[Wastelander]

I think this is about giving players a chance in the early game - in mid-to-late game, ambient temperatures begin to become less important, but it'd be no fun to play a game where a bad set of RNG can kill you ten minutes in. That being said, a gradual drop in indoor-temperatures would be nice though.

[dbldrew]

I noticed that a lot of the houses have large propane tanks attached to the outside. So a good way to give players a chance early in the game is those houses would be warm.. Like the propane heater is still running. Or even they can add a heater inside that players could light.. And every house that has a fireplace or wood burning stove would be the same temp as the outside temp and would need a 4-5 hour fire to heat the house through the night (depending on outside temp) 

[Pillock]

13 hours ago, togg said:

That's basically a different game we are talking about.

 

9 hours ago, Ruruwawa said:

Dunno.  We have bedroll wear/repair and snow shelter wear/repair already.

Yeah, I was just thinking about having to use perhaps reclaimed wood + toolbox to make basic repairs. Buildings might have an overall percentage condition that reduced gradually over time, perhaps more when you're living there and more during severe weather? Then you could restore some of that condition by spending time and resources patching it up. It needn't be any more detailed or complicated than that as far as I'm concerned.

This would do two things: 1) redress the balance in terms of player activity and resource requirements Vs health status reward when it comes to warmth/rest/food/hydration; 2) make the difficulty curve increase to an extent over the course of a play-through (ie. eventually most of the shelters become tumbledown Mountaineer Hut-type structures and you either have to expend time and energy collecting repair materials from afar or else move out of your current home into something else), where currently the game only becomes progressively easier the longer you survive.

[Dirmagnos]

22 hours ago, Pillock said:

Implementation of deterioration and repair would redress this to an extent: the lower the building's condition, the closer the ambient temp would be to the outdoor one. In the case of beds, it could lower the amount of warmth you get while resting, and perhaps even lower the quality of rest-recovery?

Unless we get to repair actual damage that is caused, for example, by blizzard and is event/condition related, i would be strongly against any type of slow deterioration. Otherwise wel get same nonsense as with food, where it spoils in a month in below zero conditions. Pls no more of that crap.

Most of those cabins would have no problem lasting for a hundred years, with just minimal prophylactic maintenance.

9 hours ago, epitaxial said:

I wondered this as well.  Back when I lived in a mobile home in South Dakota during the winter.  If the pilot light went out during the night - the inside the "house" would drop to the same temperature as the outside which would wake me up.  I think the inside of a house should only be a few degrees warmer than the outside temperature...

I wouldnt compare an aluminium box to a sturdy wooden cabin. Latter is far better in terms of insulation. Granted, over time temperature in cabin would also drop to roughly same level as outside, but it would take a lot longer than with trailer.

3 hours ago, Wastelander said:

I think this is about giving players a chance in the early game - in mid-to-late game, ambient temperatures begin to become less important, but it'd be no fun to play a game where a bad set of RNG can kill you ten minutes in. That being said, a gradual drop in indoor-temperatures would be nice though.

Games in general that rely heavily on rng in terms of determining game critical conditions feel just lazy. Its one thing when player made mistake and then something bad happened, its own fault and thats how we learn to become better, from own mistakes. But when it happens again and again and again due to factors that are completely out of player control it just feels lame and lazy.

Late game should just have increased chance for extreme weather, like longer and more serious blizzards. Something to add additional challenge, yet not make game unplayable.

[Dirmagnos]

1 hour ago, dbldrew said:

I noticed that a lot of the houses have large propane tanks attached to the outside. So a good way to give players a chance early in the game is those houses would be warm.. Like the propane heater is still running. Or even they can add a heater inside that players could light.. And every house that has a fireplace or wood burning stove would be the same temp as the outside temp and would need a 4-5 hour fire to heat the house through the night (depending on outside temp) 

It would be nice to have some use for that propane, but i think that in most cases such heating would be turned off when player arrives.

Also, in most cases, youd burn fire for 4-5 hours if you are trying to make a sauna. Under normal conditions and depending on house(size, insulation, damages) about 2 hours should be more than enough to keep house warm for roughly next 24 hours.