Too tired

[Salty Crackers]

In response to the fact that previously we couldn't sleep through the night, you just made us get tired faster and need more sleep. This is really annoying,  because I get exhausted way too much. When I am exhausted, when I sleep for 4 hours, it barely fills up the bar.It took me almost a full day to have enough fatiuge to do anything. You should overhaul it so that you can sleep whenever you want, but you get 3 condition per hour if you are full when you start, 2 per hour if you start out peckish, 1 per hour if you start out hungry, and 0 per hour if you are ravenous or starving. You would also prevent starvation by making tasks take twice as long if you are starving

I know it's been a while since these changes have happened, but I took a break from seriously playing the game.

[sarudak]

Try not sprinting.

[Salty Crackers]

I wasn't sprinting at all. I went on a big journey around the map, which made me exhausted (as it should have), but when I sleep for 4 hours I'm still drained, and my fatigue is going down fast.

[sarudak]

Well you need to sleep for 10 hours to totally refill the bar.

[Salty Crackers]

Then I shouldn't be drained after sleeping for 4 hours.

[nicko]

hrm yeah I have also noticed this issue, maybe it still needs tweaking a bit more. fatigue does seem a bit aggressive at present.

Edit: but I guess this is the way it is so we can sleep a full night, specially if you get food poisoned.

[Pillock]

I can't see this as a problem, personally.

You should be tired a lot. Especially if you are doing high-energy tasks all day and only sleeping for 4 hours in between.

[Salty Crackers]

I sleep for 4 hours, eat and drink, then sleep another 4 hours.

[Dirmagnos]

Tiredness drain is rather speedy. Player can sleep for 11 hours, then travel around for another 12, performing minor tasks, and be completely drained in the end. This is not normal if he keeps all his needs fulfilled.

[Pillock]

I don't mind it. I don't know whether it's realistic or not, because I've never experienced being out in that sort of climate, encumbered by that amount of stuff. But I do know that constantly walking all day is tiring - very tiring. And walking is more strenuous in snow and on difficult terrain, and it's always worse when you feel cold and hungry - and not necessarily to life-threatening levels.

What it does from a game-play standpoint, by making you exhausted before the end the is day, is bring into play more elements of decision-making and difficulty, as well as more resources and equipment. And I think that is a positive thing.

[Dirmagnos]

19 hours ago, Pillock said:

I don't mind it. I don't know whether it's realistic or not, because I've never experienced being out in that sort of climate, encumbered by that amount of stuff. But I do know that constantly walking all day is tiring - very tiring. And walking is more strenuous in snow and on difficult terrain, and it's always worse when you feel cold and hungry - and not necessarily to life-threatening levels.

Thats the thing, player is neither encumbered(in fact his load is generally rather light considering situation), nor hungry, cold or tired. Yet you tire like youve been holding weight of a planet on your shoulders, even if were just sitting in front of an oven for half the day, watching water boil.

[vimrich]

I too find that I'm battling exhaustion now more than anything - not life threatening, but by far the most noticeable limit to the game. I hardly ever sprint. I'm just doing a regular day of walking, some wood collecting or carcass harvesting, or maybe some crafting.  I'm at day 20 now on a new run and can't remember the last time I was fully rested or even back past 3/4. I'm worried about getting cabin fever now. I'm imagining standing around outside next to a fire just to avoid the penalty. You certainly can't do much before you're in the red and losing health due to exhaustion.

Also, I thought resting constantly is something we wanted to STOP doing?

[continuity]

Its working for me, for example I just walked from the mystery lake cabin office, to the cabin at the end of the tracks in on the coastal highway, still had 4 hours daylight and about a qtr fatigue left to go, despite carrying around 35kg the whole way. There was one cup of coffee consumed early on, so not sure how big an impact that had. I had time to kill a wolf and cook all its meat before dark too.

 

 

[vimrich]

On 7/9/2016 at 5:28 AM, continuity said:

Its working for me, for example I just walked from the mystery lake cabin office, to the cabin at the end of the tracks in on the coastal highway, still had 4 hours daylight and about a qtr fatigue left to go, despite carrying around 35kg the whole way. There was one cup of coffee consumed early on, so not sure how big an impact that had. I had time to kill a wolf and cook all its meat before dark too.

 

 

That's a pretty flat walk though. Try walking up and down hills or against the wind. I was hunting for bunkers one day, had maybe 20kg on me total, and still had to rest for an hour in that cabin by the unnamed pond just from going up to the Lookout and the other bunker location on that same day. The next day I went from the Camp Office to the Logging Camp by way of the Frozen Creek and again, was totally wiped by the time I got back. I don't think I sprinted once either day. I find myself taking a hr or so nap mid day quite a bit just to not be losing health due to exhaustion before I get back in for the night. And forget it if you do Research, Crafting, or Wood Gathering that same day. 

[continuity]

9 hours ago, vimrich said:

That's a pretty flat walk though. Try walking up and down hills or against the wind. I was hunting for bunkers one day, had maybe 20kg on me total, and still had to rest for an hour in that cabin by the unnamed pond just from going up to the Lookout and the other bunker location on that same day. The next day I went from the Camp Office to the Logging Camp by way of the Frozen Creek and again, was totally wiped by the time I got back. I don't think I sprinted once either day. I find myself taking a hr or so nap mid day quite a bit just to not be losing health due to exhaustion before I get back in for the night. And forget it if you do Research, Crafting, or Wood Gathering that same day. 

Yes, I don't know if there is any difference between stalker and voyager, but since I've switched to playing on stalker I've noticed it much more - perhaps its just that I have more experience.  For a start even after 10 or 11 hours sleep I don't always wake up at 100% on the tired status bar, usually more like 80%.  Then I can often be exhausted within a few hours, so literally from just waking up after 11 hours sleep to so exhausted i'm starting to die within 3-4 hours.... no matter what i'm doing during that time it seems and excessive status change, and in reality all I do is an hour or two research or repairs then a bit of hiking. Anyone would think i'd been running a marathon. 

It seems like if you want a full day's activity you pretty much have to drink coffee in the morning.

[MarrowStone]

14 hours ago, continuity said:

Yes, I don't know if there is any difference between stalker and voyager, but since I've switched to playing on stalker I've noticed it much more - perhaps its just that I have more experience.  For a start even after 10 or 11 hours sleep I don't always wake up at 100% on the tired status bar, usually more like 80%.  Then I can often be exhausted within a few hours, so literally from just waking up after 11 hours sleep to so exhausted i'm starting to die within 3-4 hours.... no matter what i'm doing during that time it seems and excessive status change, and in reality all I do is an hour or two research or repairs then a bit of hiking. Anyone would think i'd been running a marathon. 

It seems like if you want a full day's activity you pretty much have to drink coffee in the morning.

This is completly true for me too. I believe one way to fix this is to add caffiene to the sodas in game as well, and add a tallow light source to do things indoors when not tired at night like reasearch and repair. 

[Dirmagnos]

Id like to see tiredness meter value tripled, but at the same time recovery remain same and certain actions receiving penalties, like in real life. So player can hang around longer without starting taking condition damage(not that its really matters due to extreme easy or condition recovery), but he must then also rest appropriately.

Irl one can stay up to 24+ hours if needed, but by the end youd get slower, your head is a bit cloudy, reaction time is compromised, etc. It would not affect much simpler tasks, but something of any complexity or that requires precision, that would take serious hit.

And if he does manages to completely drain it ,then repercussions should be severe.

[Pillock]

2 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Irl one can stay up to 24+ hours if needed, but by the end youd get slower, your head is a bit cloudy, reaction time is compromised, etc. It would not affect much simpler tasks, but something of any complexity or that requires precision, that would take serious hit.

Yeah, I'd like to see the audio/visual penalties that you get on 10% condition and below start to kick in as soon as go below 100%. That would do more to encourage players not to let their body deteriorate, as well as stimulate to some degree the fact that being freezing or exhausted our starving or dehydrated really does have noticeable effects on your ability to carry out normal functions.

It could be at to start out as a fairly minor effect, then intensify increasingly drastically as your condition worsens. At below 50% I think you should be really struggling to operate normally, and below about 25% should be restricted to a slow crawl in terms of movement, have a pounding heartbeat sound effect that dulls other sounds, and seriously impaired vision.

That would also bring stims into play more. 

[cekivi]

3 hours ago, Pillock said:

Yeah, I'd like to see the audio/visual penalties that you get on 10% condition and below start to kick in as soon as go below 100%. That would do more to encourage players not to let their body deteriorate, as well as stimulate to some degree the fact that being freezing or exhausted our starving or dehydrated really does have noticeable effects on your ability to carry out normal functions.

It could be at to start out as a fairly minor effect, then intensify increasingly drastically as your condition worsens. At below 50% I think you should be really struggling to operate normally, and below about 25% should be restricted to a slow crawl in terms of movement, have a pounding heartbeat sound effect that dulls other sounds, and seriously impaired vision.

That would also bring stims into play more. 

You want to be careful no to make the penalties too severe. Panting and waving vision is fine but if you are unable to move quickly at 50% condition than it's very likely that if you fail a wolf struggle that you will be unable to get far enough away before it becomes aggressive again. You'd be stuck in a chain of wolf attacks.

[Pillock]

1 hour ago, cekivi said:

You want to be careful no to make the penalties too severe. Panting and waving vision is fine but if you are unable to move quickly at 50% condition than it's very likely that if you fail a wolf struggle that you will be unable to get far enough away before it becomes aggressive again. You'd be stuck in a chain of wolf attacks.

Yeah, well I'm hoping wolf behaviour isn't final, either, so that could be adjusted accordingly. Plus, a more intuitive injury/pain/medical system could allow you to mitigate the effects in the short-term by taking drugs (if you have them on you) - stims can do this already, of course.

I do think there should be real, immediate gameplay effects resulting from being in a state of condition loss, though - not just when you drop to 10%.

[cekivi]

5 minutes ago, Pillock said:

Yeah, well I'm hoping wolf behaviour isn't final, either, so that could be adjusted accordingly. Plus, a more intuitive injury/pain/medical system could allow you to mitigate the effects in the short-term by taking drugs (if you have them on you) - stims can do this already, of course.

I do think there should be real, immediate gameplay effects resulting from being in a state of condition loss, though - not just when you drop to 10%.

Of course. My argument is that it should be more aesthetic as opposed to mechanical.

[TROY]

Well, as a long time backpacker, and winter outdoorsman, here's my two cents.  I agree that currently the characters become exhausted to quickly and that being exhausted has to dramatic an effect on them. This is not as simple as making the bar go down slower though. Ive paid attention to how quickly the characters exhaust themselves by performing certain actions, vs doing nothing and vs simply walking around the map, with light, and with heavy loads. I've carried a 30KG backpack for 10 days, through mountains, and Ive carried one through snow in the winter time, on snowshoes. The problem with "tuning" this aspect is that in reality, as each day passes, you become more and more able to carry that load efficiently and you get better and better at not becoming "winded".  My thoughts are that the Stamina and tiredness stats need to be separated and have less impact on each other. Consider this:  No matter how tired you felt, even if you really were so tired that your health was suffering because of it, if a grizzly bear stood up and roared 100 meters away from you, you could, and would, RUN!  The type of exhaustion that causes a person to become physically ill (simulated by a slow loss of HP) doesnt come from climbing a rope, or running under a heavy load,it comes from prolonged lack of rest. Actions in the game that drain stamina are things that you quickly recover from by sitting down and catching your breath, taking a short break, having a drink, etc. Yes, at the end of the day, you would be more tired than if you had sat in camp all day darning your socks, but not so as that you couldn't run if you needed to.  So, my suggestion is separate the two, or reduce the impact of one on the other. Instead of running twice draining you to the point that you cant run, have the stamina bar only recharge half way, or say, 15% less each time its used up, or have it recharge to a lesser point based upon the current level of rest, with only 20 or 25% available at exhausted. But, the effect on the exhaustion meter by using stamina needs to be reduced dramatically. It should be tuned so that if a character spends all day doing nothing but sitting in camp crafting or repairing, by dark, they are winded. If you spend all day walking with 50% encumbrance, you should be drained by dark. With a 30kg pack, you should be able to walk until about 4 or 5 hours before dark without hitting exhausted, and be completely exhausted by dark. Each time a character drains their stamina bar should take an hour off these times.  The tuning should account for HOW LONG you've been doing something. The longer you exert yourself, the quicker it would drop. being weighed down at 40 KG should completely exhaust the character by 5 pm if they started the day fully rested.  I dont have a problem with the current sleep tuning. if you didn't do anything that day to make yourself tired enough to sleep all night and wake up before you wanted to, then you pass time, or go do something, and rest again if you feel the need.  I do not agree with needing 12 hours of sleep to recover from being exhausted however. 10 should do it, unless you are healing from something. If a character is healing from an injury, they should be able to rest beyond being fully rested. Thats common sense. Theres no such thing as fully rested if you are recovering from injury or sickness. Im not saying the entire system needs to be reworked, and obviously, we as players need to understand there has to be some give and take. In reality, unless you are some of kind of super athlete, or a Marine,  I'm sorry, but you aren't going to sprint OR climb a rope up a cliff face with a 30 KG pack on, so putting up with getting tired quicker than I think I should is a trade-off for being able to do things I know I couldn't do. 

[cekivi]

@TROY: I like a lot of the ideas you listed. Again, they give more nuance to the fatigue mechanic presently in the game.

I noticed that this started becoming an issue (i.e. showed up on the forums) with the Tireless Menace update. Fatigue and Tiredness were tuned (increased) to allow players to exhaust themselves by the end of the day so they can sleep (as a result of resting being re-balanced with the cabin fever mechanic). It seems this has had a lot of unintended side effects....

[TROY]

Just now, cekivi said:

@TROY: I like a lot of the ideas you listed. Again, they give more nuance to the fatigue mechanic presently in the game.

I noticed that this started becoming an issue (i.e. showed up on the forums) with the Tireless Menace update. Fatigue and Tiredness were tuned (increased) to allow players to exhaust themselves by the end of the day so they can sleep (as a result of resting being re-balanced with the cabin fever mechanic). It seems this has had a lot of unintended side effects....

Thanks!  I think the Dev's did a great job of tuning the resting, except needing so much to recover from complete exhaustion, but you are certainly correct that fatigue was not an issue before, and needs some tweaking. I try to base my suggestions on both real life experience and what I know about how the game mechanics work and affect each other.  Unfortunately, I know nuttin' at all  'bout coding a game and sometimes I get a little passionate about game behavior simulating reality or not and forget about the impact it would have on the challenge offered by the game.   

[hauteecolerider]

@TROY I like what you said about exhaustion. Good points, all.

I don't mind being exhausted at the end of the day. It isn't that big an issue in Pilgrim.

But now that I'm playing my Voyager character from pre-Tireless Menace update days, I'm kind of peeved at how quickly exhaustion sets in.

On a related note, what bugs me even more is that topping up the thirst bar right before going to bed and sleeping for 8 or 10 hours makes me absolutely DEHYDRATED when I wake up. What's up with that?? Metabolically, your water needs go DOWN with sleep, not UP. However, it is worse now than it was before. 

This is so bad. I can live with the current fatigue mechanics. But the water needs is beyond ridiculous. I get that cold weather is dehydrating. That's to be expected. However the body uses less water for metabolic functions during rest than it does during activity. I'm sorry but this is something I really find highly unimmersive. 

Other than that, I am still enjoying the game, even with the increased degradation rates and the increased unpredictability of animal behavior and the other increased challenges such as finding them harder to hunt, etc.