Solution to the liquid container dilemma.

[Fuarian]

By this I mean the fact that you seem to have an unlimited supply of waterbottles and coffee cups!

Water Bottle: You should start with a new item, an empty water bottle. 1L maximum capacity. This way you have the ability to realistically make water on a fire. Only 1L though. You can also start with 1L or less of water like you can normally start with.

You can later find more empty (or full like normal) bottles around the game world. You can have as many as you want and boil as much water as you want. This way it's realistic and you aren't magically making water bottles. It also restricts having too much water and balances the game a bit.

 

Coffee and Tea: Instead of magically creating a cup out of thin air you should be able to find a coffee mug or thermos. As seen below. 1L maximum per mug. Same for tea. This way it's realistic and the drink doesn't spill in your pack and limits the amount of tea and coffee you can have at once. It also keeps the drink warm for longer. You still need 0.25 L of water to make it though.

640 × 640 - ebay.com

[MarrowStone]

I like the thermos idea and itd be nice to address the magic water bottles issue, but im only concerned about how the accumulation of plastic junk in our worlds will affect the natural beauty of the environment in the game.

[Gonzalo]

2 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

I like the thermos idea and itd be nice to address the magic water bottles issue, but im only concerned about how the accumulation of plastic junk in our worlds will affect the natural beauty of the environment in the game.

Well I don't think it will affect the beauty of the environment, since I always find water bottles mostly in backpacks and interiors. Never thought of this problem with the water and now I'm really digging that thermos idea, imagine that you can prepare 1L of coffee/tea and keep it in the thermos warm for 1 day, plus it would use 4 teas or coffees, since when I want to make some it asks me to have 0.25L and another plus, you would at least start with a 1L bottle with at least 0.50L. Really good ideas from the OP, good thread.

[Pillock]

4 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

I like the thermos idea and itd be nice to address the magic water bottles issue, but im only concerned about how the accumulation of plastic junk in our worlds will affect the natural beauty of the environment in the game.

We need to be able to find litter-pickers and binbags, maybe in the camp office?

[sir ice]

I love the current water system. 

[nicko]

Maybe the water container needs to be more based on limited container systems of some sort, just like the coffee thermos idea.

I think like others have prev suggested why don't we have to find water storage containers? I think the boil water auto add to a plastic bottle is not the best.

HS Devs can then create all sort of container sizes?

Basics would be:

Light a fire, you found a metal cup? ok I can fill it with snow., start a fire, place cup near fire, I can drink. 400ml

Found a cook pot, wow can boil 5lt of water.

And found a  200/400  lt/gl storage drum that could hold this amount of water.

 

 

[Dirmagnos]

There is really no point in changing current water container system. Sure, having bottles would make it more realistic, but plastic bottles are literally found everywhere. And game takes place in near future, so theres probably will be even more of them.

[Thurman Merman]

19 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

There is really no point in changing current water container system. Sure, having bottles would make it more realistic, but plastic bottles are literally found everywhere. And game takes place in near future, so theres probably will be even more of them.

I agree.  While I understand the initial complaint (my survivor miraculously has infinite liquid storage), the fix just seems tedious.  Not everything in a game should be ultra-realistic:  why don't I have to trim the survivor's fingernails, huh?  The current water system (especially with your bottle thought in mind), seems like a reasonable approach.

[Ohbal]

2 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

There is really no point in changing current water container system. Sure, having bottles would make it more realistic, but plastic bottles are literally found everywhere. And game takes place in near future, so theres probably will be even more of them.

I do not agree with this. Finding garbage on the wild is not as common as you describe. I mean, you make it sound like a guaranteed fact, no matter where you are. Depending on the region you may find different results, so maybe its just a matter of where you go and how much people is around, and how well educated they are to throw the garbage where they should... there are several factors that could make finding decent water bottles not so easy. I do not know how it works in Canada though, never been there. 

Talking about plastic, a lego piece may last forever, but the thin plastic of a water bottles won't. While I agree on one side: finding a fair amount of usable bottles shouldn't be too hard, I think the current system makes it way too easy... and endless. Even if finding the bottles turns into an easy task, you would still have to manage them. How many do I leave here? how many do I carry? Has any of them deteriorated from a wolf attack? 

I know water seems something guaranteed these days but I think it would be a nice challenge for us survivors if its managemet turns into something less plain and simple. I'm not asking for an over-complication of the system, but carrying a boll, and being limited on the capacity you can stockpile by a realistic system wouldn't be a dramatic change. Its the same with the keronese and makes sense. Actually, it would make the system feel more consistent: why do we have an infinite amount of water bottles to fill with... water, but we cannot harvest the kerosene unless we have a proper recipient? 

I know I'm a freaking pain with this topic, but I've been feeling we are loosing an interest survival aspect since my first attemp to boil water. I'll try to NOT repeat myself... for a few days 

[EternityTide]

No no, I think there's something in this, @Dirmagnos.

I would say, start the game with two 1 litre plastic bottles, these can be filled up and used as and when you need to. However this limits your carrying capacity to two litres. Later, you can find larger and more durable containers.

As you explore, you will find larger and more ergonomic containers. Some could be like this:

... Whilst others could look similar to the kerosene jerry cans, with "drinking water, not for fuel use" emblazoned on the side.

This would add more tactical, strategic aspects to the production and transport of water.

Additionally, I think that water left outside in -20 conditions SHOULD freeze, and be undrinkable until thawed, with the "boil to make safe" process being skipped.

Water drums in the peppers cache, office water cooler bottles in CHD, this would make water a more strategic and sought after resource, on par with food. Something worth more than "let's produce 50 litres of water in a 10 hour cooking session".

[Fuarian]

On 9/6/2016 at 11:33 AM, Thurman Merman said:

I agree.  While I understand the initial complaint (my survivor miraculously has infinite liquid storage), the fix just seems tedious.  Not everything in a game should be ultra-realistic:  why don't I have to trim the survivor's fingernails, huh?  The current water system (especially with your bottle thought in mind), seems like a reasonable approach.

Ok I understand your point but the water system has it's flaws. I feel like I have an unlimited source of water and if I wanted I could melt up to 30L of water and be set for days. The game doesn't feel like a survival game anymore. Whereas having space for liquid would make the game more challenging and bring back the survival feel to it.

But this is a little unrealistic as it is now. So much compared to other in game mechanics that are unrealistic.

[Dirmagnos]

Problem is not as much as "magic bottles" vs realistic water management, but how to create second in the way that it would be better than current system. What ive seen so far suggests rather tedious multileveled micromanagement system that mostly do not make much sense.

[Gonzalo]

8 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Problem is not as much as "magic bottles" vs realistic water management, but how to create second in the way that it would be better than current system. What ive seen so far suggests rather tedious multileveled micromanagement system that mostly do not make much sense.

I don't think people will have problems understanding when they see that there is an item that says "empty bottle" and when they melt snow that bottle just fills, but I am strongly against having the bottles deteriorate with time/wolf attacks, remember its a game not a simulation. I am in for the water storage system because the current one feels lacking but let's make it as simple as possible without the ability to just smelt water until you fill your cabin floor with bottles that came out of nowhere.

[Wastelander]

8 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Problem is not as much as "magic bottles" vs realistic water management, but how to create second in the way that it would be better than current system. What ive seen so far suggests rather tedious multileveled micromanagement system that mostly do not make much sense.

That's why I prefer the filtering we recently talked about.

[Ohbal]

Sometimes it feels we are re-inventing the wheel

This is the only survival game I've played where the water storage is taken for granted. I don't know if talking about other games here is something allowed as I barely see any comparisons, so I'll just share the method used by another indie game without naming it. 

The player has to collect water bottles. Those bottles can be filled out of a number of ways (sinks, taps, etc) for a time, then the sources are just wells, rivers and rain (through rain collectors). The water from rivers and rain needs to be boiled as well. So, unless you don't set your base close to a well (then is infinite), the water is storaged in all shorts of containers: from the classic water bottle to bowls, cooking pots, glasses, cups, you name it. 

When scouting, the player must plan for how many days will be out. They have to plan where (if) they are going to re-fill them. The system just introduces a natural, strategic component on survival, one that makes you have the same mindset as you would have in real life. It doesn't feel tedious at all to me. 

That particular game reduces some pain for the player by making it drink automatically when water is available: if you are carrying water in your inventory, the character is always hydratated. When you run out, the hydratation bar stars dropping.  Basically this removes clicking on the water bottle three times a day to drink as it happens in TLD (which after 350 days as in my case, does start to feel tedious ).

I'm not saying TLD should mimic that system, it's just an example of a working system based in "you can store as much water as your containers allow you". 

[nicko]

14 minutes ago, Ohbal said:

Sometimes it feels we are re-inventing the wheel

This is the only survival game I've played where the water storage is taken for granted. I don't know if talking about other games here is something allowed as I barely see any comparisons, so I'll just share the method used by another indie game without naming it. 

The player has to collect water bottles. Those bottles can be filled out of a number of ways (sinks, taps, etc) for a time, then the sources are just wells, rivers and rain (through rain collectors). The water from rivers and rain needs to be boiled as well. So, unless you don't set your base close to a well (then is infinite), the water is storaged in all shorts of containers: from the classic water bottle to bowls, cooking pots, glasses, cups, you name it. 

When scouting, the player must plan for how many days will be out. They have to plan where (if) they are going to re-fill them. The system just introduces a natural, strategic component on survival, one that makes you have the same mindset as you would have in real life. It doesn't feel tedious at all to me. 

That particular game reduces some pain for the player by making it drink automatically when water is available: if you are carrying water in your inventory, the character is always hydratated. When you run out, the hydratation bar stars dropping.  Basically this removes clicking on the water bottle three times a day to drink as it happens in TLD (which after 350 days as in my case, does start to feel tedious ).

I'm not saying TLD should mimic that system, it's just an example of a working system based in "you can store as much water as your containers allow you". 

yeah love this idea, though we need some sort of stock pile of water? we have no rain, river water etc. maybe each main cabin have some sort of main water storage container, be it a bath tub or a container 44gaLLON Drum that we can stock pile water?

[Dirmagnos]

8 hours ago, Gonzalo said:

I don't think people will have problems understanding when they see that there is an item that says "empty bottle" and when they melt snow that bottle just fills, but I am strongly against having the bottles deteriorate with time/wolf attacks, remember its a game not a simulation. I am in for the water storage system because the current one feels lacking but let's make it as simple as possible without the ability to just smelt water until you fill your cabin floor with bottles that came out of nowhere.

Well, simplest solution(the way i see it) would probably be is to keep current system, but limit max storage of water based on number of appropriate containers at player disposal(including those in his direct vicinity but not in inventory, with list). And limit max amount of water that can be boiled at any given time by available cutlery(eg if i have 5l pot, then i can boil max 5 l at the time), with appropriate time reductions, as boiling 5l at once will take less time(and fuel) as boiling 5 times 1l. With additional alternative means of storing water, like freezing it in winter, so that it would not require container, but needs to be thawed to be usable.

Altho with abundance of various bottles, player will be making bottle batteries in no time anyway. So outcome wont really change compared to what we have currently.

@Ohbal Youve been playing Zomboid, arent you ? 8)

Probably worth mentioning a way of getting water from condensation. Fairly simple and dont require much effort, altho wont yield that much either. 

[Gonzalo]

2 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Well, simplest solution(the way i see it) would probably be is to keep current system

Yeah, I think that will happen. Just gotta wait and see I guess, I just know that anything that Hinterland decides to do I will be okay with, they managed the game in a beautiful manner.

[Ohbal]

15 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

 

@Ohbal Youve been playing Zomboid, arent you ? 8)

You said it, not me! But yeah, spent two years following it (400 hours played), I'm now tired of waiting and just stalking until they reach 1.0  

In a world with limited loot as we have in TLD, it would be a matter of limiting how may bottles spawn in the sandbox, and let the player manage them (and find them) as they consider best. Adding other ways to collect water (condensation, waterfalls, fishing holes...) would also be neat. I'm sure we'll see different mechanics once we move into seasons though  

[Dirmagnos]

I love that game. Havent played for a while tho, made myself a promise that i wont be coming back till they finally add some form of transportation and fix friggin zed spawns inside enclosed areas(i once spend 2 weeks fortifying large area in West Point, hotel and surrounding areas, and even when i was done they kept on spawning inside, even tho they shouldnt, all ground access points were blocked).

And i dont think that there should be limit on bottles or nay other containers. There should be a circulation of those. Player may find initially a lot, but they will break or melt one by one, like having a chance for it to happen when player falls/trips. At the same time, during open water seasons there should be those(along various other light junk) washing ashore, allowing to replenish supply of bottles/containers.

[Ape88]

Honestly, I'm not sure why the game doesn't have us use large water barrels for water storage at points such as the gas station in CH, and the various preppers caches around the map. And then you have areas like the logging camp where there seems to be no sources of potable water anywhere so what did those men do? Subsist on 20 oz bottles of water all the time brought in by their company? So then why do we not find many bottles of water there?

I would like to see an actual physical container that we must find or carry when empty as well.

[Ohbal]

Off-topic (sorry) @Dirmagnos when was your last playthrough? I didn't have any spawn issues within my base, but I never take too much ground, I tend to build up  . I've seen reports of that issue, but I think the base has to be over different chunks for the spawn to get messed up. 

On topic. Yeah, on a seccond though completely limiting all water bottles at the beggining may be too harsh on the long term. Should be a way to get more or, as many other have suggested by now, finding different containers, some should be more resistent than others. Geez, one of the most basic items of any campist is not in the game (which also solves the equation: how do I boil the water?):

 

[alone sniper]

On 9/5/2016 at 11:56 PM, Fuarian said:

By this I mean the fact that you seem to have an unlimited supply of waterbottles and coffee cups!

Water Bottle: You should start with a new item, an empty water bottle. 1L maximum capacity. This way you have the ability to realistically make water on a fire. Only 1L though. You can also start with 1L or less of water like you can normally start with.

You can later find more empty (or full like normal) bottles around the game world. You can have as many as you want and boil as much water as you want. This way it's realistic and you aren't magically making water bottles. It also restricts having too much water and balances the game a bit.

 

Coffee and Tea: Instead of magically creating a cup out of thin air you should be able to find a coffee mug or thermos. As seen below. 1L maximum per mug. Same for tea. This way it's realistic and the drink doesn't spill in your pack and limits the amount of tea and coffee you can have at once. It also keeps the drink warm for longer. You still need 0.25 L of water to make it though.

 

640 × 640 - ebay.com

+ ∞ !!!!!!!!! 

[nicko]

19 hours ago, Ohbal said:

On topic. Yeah, on a seccond though completely limiting all water bottles at the beggining may be too harsh on the long term. Should be a way to get more or, as many other have suggested by now, finding different containers, some should be more resistent than others. Geez, one of the most basic items of any campist is not in the game (which also solves the equation: how do I boil the water?):

 

+1 along with a thermos.

[tnbp]

On 9/6/2016 at 10:47 AM, EternityTide said:

No no, I think there's something in this, @Dirmagnos.

I would say, start the game with two 1 litre plastic bottles, these can be filled up and used as and when you need to. However this limits your carrying capacity to two litres. Later, you can find larger and more durable containers.

As you explore, you will find larger and more ergonomic containers. Some could be like this:

... Whilst others could look similar to the kerosene jerry cans, with "drinking water, not for fuel use" emblazoned on the side.

This would add more tactical, strategic aspects to the production and transport of water.

Additionally, I think that water left outside in -20 conditions SHOULD freeze, and be undrinkable until thawed, with the "boil to make safe" process being skipped.

Water drums in the peppers cache, office water cooler bottles in CHD, this would make water a more strategic and sought after resource, on par with food. Something worth more than "let's produce 50 litres of water in a 10 hour cooking session".

+1 to all of these ideas