New game mechanic

[wewenzi]

Hello hinterland and comunity. Sorry for my english (and my photoshop skills)

stink could be added
it would be easy, for example, as if we have unprocessed meat (those 3 dashes) only it would have a different color
it could be added over time or especially by running
a disability for long non-washing would be itchy skin
itchy skin could not be cured until washed and it would make it impossible to have a 100% condition that would always go lower like a  parasites
it could be washed easily and a bathtub could be used for washing
maybe just with non-potable water (for example 3 liters) and one cloth like a sponge would be enough

thanks for reading and replying ❤️

 

[k0s0ff]

good idea
You can still add bowel movements and if you don't do your business in time ,you'll get dirty faster.
 

[Moll]

I would add soap. Model is ingame already, even with Sponge instead of Cloth.

New Affliction:

Scabies: 

1. Discomfot (worse handling, shooting and crafting).

2. Decreased sleep recovery. Or simple you cant sleep very well.

3. It stinks.

4. Increased decay of cloth.

5. Very low health penalty.

6. Random scratching animation (you cannot carry items in hands for a long time without pause for scratch).

Affliction Scabies is based on your sweating. It increases when too hot, when sprinting or  when no bath in 5 - 7 days, or less based on your activity. Sponge and soap are pretty durable, like 2 % per use, so one soap-sponge can help you for a half of year maybe because you are usually very active moving in game.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Moll

[ManicManiac]

It's been a common subject of discussion in the past... so I will just echo what I mentioned before:

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 10:52 PM, ManicManiac said:

I'm perfectly fine with there being no hygiene mechanic in the game.   
I get what you're saying though, and it would make natural sense - I just don't think I would enjoy it as a gameplay mechanic.

 

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 11:46 PM, ManicManiac said:

I feel there comes a point where there is only so much micromanaging that can be done before it stops being fun and starts just feeling like a slog...

 

"No sir... I don't like it."
     - Mr. Horse (Ren & Stimpy)

[RegentRelic]

3 hours ago, Moll said:

Discomfot (worse handling, shooting and crafting).

You need to put your life in danger more if you think discomfort matters for someone who has been alone in the snow, with anything that is trying to kill him.

 

3 hours ago, Moll said:

3. It stinks.

You ain't going to get close to a gamey piece of venison.

What I am sayi'n is that when your in survival mode hygiene doesn't matter in any way, except for dieses. Which unless it form what your eati'n you aren't going to get Alone on an island that has been frozen for a significant amount of time. At least not likely and, I don't fancy the idea of just randomly getting small pox.

[k0s0ff]

@ManicManiac @RegentRelic

I don't know. I agree with you and I don't. From the point of view of the logic of the game it is useless and unnecessary. But it seems to me, if you still add it, the consequences should be less noticeable, so that it does not interfere with those who do not pay attention to such trifles. But the consequences should be, for those who like to bother with such things. Perhaps this is the most controversial point.
 

 

[ManicManiac]

@k0s0ff
My opinion of the idea proposed is not that I think it's useless or unnecessary… that's not what I was trying to convey.

I just don't think something like this would be any fun, and cross over into the territory of being on the level micromanaging that I don't really enjoy in games that I play.
 

Edited December 5, 2019 by ManicManiac

[k0s0ff]

@ManicManiac

Understood. And what games?

[ManicManiac]

Games with too much micromanaging for my tastes?  Most anything with Sid Meier's name on it.  They are fine games, I just don't find all that micromanaging fun.  Mostly I find it tedious and a bit of a slog.  As a result, I generally don't enjoy and won't play most of Sid Meier's games.  
 

To be clear, it's not that I'm against micromanaging certain things in games... I just don't enjoy it after a certain point.
If you were asking about what other games I do enjoy playing, I'll refer to this: (obscured text for those who don't want to see such a long post - especially considering it's a little off topic )

 

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 1:29 AM, ManicManiac said:

Wow... if we are talking about all our favorites from over the years, this will be a long list!  (There is a ton, but I will try to limit it to just my top favorites off the cuff and I'll group them)

*NES
Super Mario Brothers 3
The Legend of Zelda
Final Fantasy (the very first one)

*Genesis
Sonic the Hedgehog (1&2)
Cyborg Justice
X-Men
Mortal Kombat

*SNES
Super Mario World
Final Fantasy VI (known as FF3 in my day)
F-Zero

*N64
Super Mario 64
Goldeneye & Perfect Dark (these two cannot be separated in my mind)
Turok - Dinosaur Hunter
Legend of Zelda - Ocarina of Time

*PlayStation
Metal Gear Solid
Resident Evil 2
Final Fantasy Tactics

*Old School PC
Wolfenstein 3D
Quake (The soundtrack by Trent Reznor was the stuff of legends)
Duke Nukem 3D
Commander Keen 4 - The Secret of the Oracle
Stellar 7
Mean Streets (the original Tex Murphy game)
Myst
Uplink
Republic Commando
Battlefront I & II (the originals not the recent E.A. garbage)
Dark Forces series - specifically Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy

*Modern Era PC
The Long Dark (naturally)
Subnautica
ARK Survival Evolved
Stranded Deep
Fire Watch
Antichamber
Fallout New Vegas

There are so many more... but I'm cutting it off to just the ones I can remember off the top of my head.   

Edited December 5, 2019 by ManicManiac

[ThePancakeLady]

On 12/3/2019 at 5:23 PM, wewenzi said:

 

1) stink could be added
it would be easy, for example, as if we have unprocessed meat (those 3 dashes) only it would have a different color
it could be added over time or especially by running

2) a disability for long non-washing would be itchy skin
 itchy skin could not be cured until washed and it would make it impossible to have a 100% condition that would always go lower like a  parasites
it could be washed easily and a bathtub could be used for washing

3) maybe just with non-potable water (for example 3 liters) and one cloth like a sponge would be enough

 

 

 

1) I have always thought that our scent detection range would be a good fit if a hygiene mechanic was added. Not washing after harvesting a carcass, or not washing for a specified period of time, our detection radius could be cut down, just like it is with the stink-o-meter. This makes sense, and fits with how wolves and bears detect us already.

 

2) No. That's just adding an annoyance that will cause a great deal of anger among some of the community.  Being more detectable, from a shorter s distance because the stink-o-meter has 1 squiggle added to it is enough of an encouragement for many people to use the mechanic, without overly punishing those who choose not to. 

And as far as needing a bathtub I say no to that as well. For players at risk of Cabin fever, or Interlopers who have fewer intact shelter buildings to use in general, as well as certain regions having no bathtubs in them at all, makes this a serious punishment for players who spawn into those regions, or who choose to fully explore those regions. I think requiring a cooking pot makes more sense. 

3) Potable water only. Would you wash your face with water from a dirty toilet, or mudpuddle? Melt snow, boil water, wash up with clean water (botht the character and/or washing clothing). And this is where it gets complicated. You need to boil 2L of water for each piece of clothing? There are some of us who may enjoy this idea, but there will be many who will not. If they do add this, it needs to be simple, and not a full day of washing the character and every piece of clothing, every tool that may have animal blood on it, ect. 

Thee needs to be a balance that most people would find reasonable. Use time up washing vs. hunting/foraging/cooking/reading a skill book, with the benefit of reducing our scent radius fr predator detection, or no washing with the increase of our scent radius for scent detection. And honestly, this will hit players who enjoy Stalker Mode the hardest (people like me...), because our detection range is already "Wolves smell you from a mile away, and there sure are a ton of wolves out here...".  Pilgrim players would not even need to use the mechanic as the game is right now. Everything runs from them but the Moose right now (we'll see if Timber wolves will attack in Pilgrim Mode after the December update.). Which means it singles out Stalker players, to a great degree, and affects Pilgrims not at all, Voyageurs only slightly, and Interlopers a bit more, since every wolf is more deadly, Stalkers will be heavily affected. A balancing nightmare for the devs to try to work out, to make it work well on all experience modes.

I do still like the idea, and would like to see something like it implemented, but only as a part of a larger overall Health & Wellness system.  And from a balancing perspective, let alone a coding perspective, it will not be easy for the devs t get rght. Your idea is a valid one, and yes, it has been requested many times over the years, with a wide range of opinions on it, and a wide number of branched ideas about how it should work. I won't upvote it, but I won't downvote it either. I do think it would need to be an option in Custom Settings, so players can turn it on or off, if anything like it is added, in the same way that we can turn Cabin fever or Sprains on or off.

[ManicManiac]

18 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

1) I have always thought that our scent detection range would be a good fit if a hygiene mechanic was added. Not washing after harvesting a carcass, or not washing for a specified period of time, our detection radius could be cut down, just like it is with the stink-o-meter. This makes sense, and fits with how wolves and bears detect us already.

I do agree with your take on this (along with all your other points).  It most certainly would make sense, and it does fit in the ways you pointed out.

I guess I'm just still not sure I'd find it very fun...  Naturally, I suppose it would depend on the implementation, and how much effort on the part of the player would have to go into maintaining that aspect.  In the end, I do trust Hinterland's commitment to their vision, so if they do add something like this, then fine...

...but I'd still be perfectly fine without their being a hygiene mechanic  

Edited December 5, 2019 by ManicManiac

[ThePancakeLady]

Eh, and I see I typed the wrong words... "detection radius cut down"  reads wrong. I meant to say "scent detection range made larger". They will smell us from further away, not the other way around.

And yeah, some folks would like it, some would not. So... custom settings to turn it off.  And balanced across all experience modes, like sprains are. Not a "If you play Interloper you get stinkier, faster. While in Pilgrim mode your **** never stinks."  And that is what I think would be most difficult. How to make it affect everyone equally., with no perceived bias against any mode. A mechanic that makes you think about your playstyle (are you reckless or cautious?) rather than it becoming a grindy, frustrating micro-management thing.

[wewenzi]

@ThePancakeLady Hi I don't know if I read well but you wrote that "You need to boil 2L of water for each piece of clothing" no of course not my idea is that we only need 3 liters and one cloth to wash the body I didn't even think about washing clothes

and i didnt mean a dirty toilet, or mudpuddle only non-potable water from the snow 

even the non-potable water is clean and certainly there were not so many cars or something else to make the snow dirty

[ThePancakeLady]

30 minutes ago, wewenzi said:

even the non-potable water is clean and certainly there were not so many cars or something else to make the snow dirty

The non-potable water is not clean, or there would be no chance of getting Dysentery from drinking it.

Wild animals don't use restrooms like humans do. The go wherever they are standing, sitting, flying, ect. when they need to go.
"Dirty" is not only a thing that happens from motor oil and gasoline/petrol.  

There is a reason we must boil water to make it potable (safe to drink). 

[ManicManiac]

8 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

A mechanic that makes you think about your playstyle (are you reckless or cautious?) rather than it becoming a grindy, frustrating micro-management thing.

And if the implementation went along those lines, I'd be in favor of it.  
 

[Moll]

all depends how often you have to bath. Once per 10 -14 days, base on your activity isnt much abuse for player. You dont needa much water. When you use common way, where you make your skin wet, use soap and sponge and then remove it you can  do it even with 2  liters of potable water.

Also it can reduce Cabin fever. In this case, you cannot bath more than once per 10 - 14 days.

[acada]

Imagine to have option fill bathube with water and light fire under it. After few hours... HOT BATH.

Now more seriously. How are performing hygiene native folks from far north (Inuits and such)? Found one article about that in Peter Freumen's Book of the Eskimos:

Quote

The women are cleaner than the men. They wash themselves a little, or rub themselves down with a little blubber oil, after each menstruation. As for the men, they might go for years without being washed. However, the hygiene is not in an altogether bad state because both men and women take most of their clothes off, getting their bodies "aerated," when they are inside the house.

 

[ajb1978]

6 hours ago, Moll said:

you can  do it even with 2  liters of potable water.

That probably wouldn't be enough for a full-body wash.  Even in the Navy, where you take two-minute showers (get wet, turn shower off, lather up, turn shower on and rinse off) you use about 11L on average.

[Moll]

11 litres is too much for gameplay reason. I choosed 2 L, because its easily craftable by short campfire session. By game logic you dont shower, you just use wet sponge.

[stratvox]

This article seems relevant: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2019/10/mist-showers-sustainable-decadence.html

Among other things, it discusses water and energy usage for different methods of bathing.

 

[Guest jeffpeng]

I've been playing Green Hell a lot lately, and the single most thing that annoys me (yes, even more than leeches) is the hygene system. So.... no thank you from me.

In general I am less and less in favor of adding "chores" to the game. In my very personal opinion you should ask yourself these three question before implementing anything into a game (which, by definition, exists to provide entertainment of some form or another):

Is my new mechanic fun? Is my new mechanic interesting? Is my new mechanic challenging?

If it ticks all three boxes you have a winner, and it should be in the game.

If it ticks two boxes you can probably make it work for all three categories, and it's definitely something to work on.

If it ticks just one box it probably is something that can work as an optional thing in the game. Things that are just fun never really hurt, and are good for easter eggs. Things that are just interesting are great for completionists and people wanting to explore the lore of game. Things that are just challenging are something sought after by those players that want to beat the game at its hardest settings and under the most unfavorable circumstances conceivable (that's me, btw).

If it ticks neither of those boxes nobody will want to do that, so don't bother working on it. Forcing it on the player as a necessity will negatively impact the perception of the game.

So to conclude: In my opinion having to wash myself to avoid being tracked by predators from far away or suffering from permanent condition drop is the prototypical description of a mechanic that is neither fun, interesting or challenging, but is forced upon me in order to succeed at the game.

[acada]

I think it is good the hygiene is not in the game. Same for excretion. It could be nice touch. BUT. washing your body is only half of the process. What with your clothes? These absorb your sweat, the blood either from carcasses or you after attack.

[ajb1978]

9 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

So to conclude: In my opinion having to wash myself to avoid being tracked by predators from far away or suffering from permanent condition drop is the prototypical description of a mechanic that is neither fun, interesting or challenging, but is forced upon me in order to succeed at the game.

I'm thinking hygiene could work if it's handled similarly to how Hinterland addressed the starvation exploit.  Rather than punish the player, they reward them for playing the way they intended the game to be played by introducing the Well Fed buff.  So hygiene, rather than penalize you for not washing regularly, could instead confer a buff.  Reduced risk of infection from animal bites and/or reduced detection radius or something.  So say you're going hunting, you can take a bath ahead of time to reduce your scent, allowing you to more easily sneak up on your prey.  And you're totally free to just ignore the hygiene entirely and play as you've always played, but now you have that optional extra step you can take if you choose to help with the hunt.  Or if you're going on a sapling hunt through wolf territory, that reduced scent might just save your bacon.  Additional options are always welcome.

[Guest jeffpeng]

13 hours ago, ajb1978 said:

I'm thinking hygiene could work if it's handled similarly to how Hinterland addressed the starvation exploit.  Rather than punish the player, they reward them for playing the way they intended the game to be played by introducing the Well Fed buff.  So hygiene, rather than penalize you for not washing regularly, could instead confer a buff.  Reduced risk of infection from animal bites and/or reduced detection radius or something.  So say you're going hunting, you can take a bath ahead of time to reduce your scent, allowing you to more easily sneak up on your prey.  And you're totally free to just ignore the hygiene entirely and play as you've always played, but now you have that optional extra step you can take if you choose to help with the hunt.  Or if you're going on a sapling hunt through wolf territory, that reduced scent might just save your bacon.  Additional options are always welcome.

In theory .... yeah, maybe. But wouldn't it just dull down the game if there was a simple way to just avoid wolfes by taking a bath in advance? No, to actually balance that they'd have to put in some sort of penalty if not bathed properly, even if it is - in the end - sold to the player as a benefit when complying, not as a punishment when failing to. I think your idea is the right one if HL actually decided to make this work, but I'm not sold.

[ajb1978]

15 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

In theory .... yeah, maybe. But wouldn't it just dull down the game if there was a simple way to just avoid wolfes by taking a bath in advance? No, to actually balance that they'd have to put in some sort of penalty if not bathed properly, even if it is - in the end - sold to the player as a benefit when complying, not as a punishment when failing to. I think your idea is the right one if HL actually decided to make this work, but I'm not sold.

Oh it wouldn't think it would be a huge buff.  Maybe 10% reduction in detection radius.  Well Fed only boosts your health to 105, and while that's unlikely to make or break a run, it helps.  Something that just takes the edge off.  Not unlike the small wolf-scare chance a wolf coat grants.  You can't rely on it, but every little bit helps, and all these little microbuffs add up, so if you choose to invest the time and energy into taking care of your survivor, you're a heck of a lot tougher than if you really are just scraping by on scraps.