Wolf Decoy

[hozz1235]

I was crossing the bridge at Thomson's Crossing when I heard a wolf bark.  He approached from ahead of me down the road.  I waited for him to get a little closer (since it seems like decoy ranges have changed) before dropping my decoy.  I did and he seemed to walk towards it then pause and..."stutter?" for about 5 seconds.  He didn't approach any closer.  Then the decoy was gone and he left!  Was NO WHERE near the decoy when he apparently gobbled it up.

After he was done eating, he barked and came at me again.  Same thing - dropped decoy...pause, decoy gone from distance.

Edited October 26, 2019 by hozz1235

[peteloud]

I have found that dropping a decoy from the radial menu has not been working for the past few days.  I'm not sure when this started, I guess that it is somehow linked to the new version 1.6.  It is not working in Wintermute nor a Survival game I'm playing.   I tried re-loading the game, it still didn't work, re-booted my computer and it still didn't work.

In all my tests I was carrying several pieces of cooked meat or cured guts.  I have not yet tried with fresh meat or guts.

 

 

[hozz1235]

Just came back to roughly the same spot (bridge).  This time, I dropped a rabbit carcass as a decoy (using the 3 key) to the approaching, growling wolf.  The carcass disappeared almost immediately and the wolf walked away.

[Guest kristaok]

I read somewhere (don't know if it's true or not) that the decoy mechanic was changed to prevent people from baiting the wolves just to shoot them, either way I personally liked the old more realistic mechanic of wolves actually coming towards the bait to eat it best.

[sierra 117]

Yeah I'm having the same issue. Wolves are taking the bait at crazy distance.

 

[Guest kristaok]

Okay the baiting mechanics was changed - Raph said that... but there are still bugs with it.

[Ice Hole]

1 hour ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Oh, some of what you describe here are bugs. But the idea that you can drop a Decoy, back away to like 20-30m, and get a guaranteed headshot -- that's the part that we removed. That was definitely an exploit, because it was a very low-cost, low-risk (or no-risk) way to get a pretty much guaranteed kill. That's just not how this game is meant to work.

This is just the best.  One of the most disappointing problem is being addressed.  Since I first saw this game on a stream and seeing this decoy exploit I always had hoped this would be changed.  Now do not get me wrong I am all for making traps but this was just simply shooting fish in a barrel.  Now the essence of decoy has been restored and is no more defined as bait.

[Guest kristaok]

2 hours ago, Ice Hole said:

This is just the best.  One of the most disappointing problem is being addressed.  Since I first saw this game on a stream and seeing this decoy exploit I always had hoped this would be changed.  Now do not get me wrong I am all for making traps but this was just simply shooting fish in a barrel.  Now the essence of decoy has been restored and is no more defined as bait.

But isn't this the "essence of a decoy"? = https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/decoy

Quote

Definition of decoy - a bird or mammal, or an imitation of one, used by hunters to attract other birds or mammals

And I know it keeps being referred to as an "exploit", but I don't really get how that is so... of course I know it don't matter what I really think since it is what it is... but would it really be an "exploit" to (irl) drop some meat for a rabid charging animal to eat, then when they eat it - shoot them? NO. So how is this an "exploit" in the game? I mean I know Raph said that's not what the decoys were intended to do, but still it all doesn't make sense to me considering that's what decoys are for... oh well... 

But yea I have said it before and I will say it again... I am pretty bummed that this was removed, not necessarily due to being able to one-shot the wolves or anything... but because the mechanics now are not nearly as realistic as they were.  

Sigh... I will just have to accept what is... and what may come, but these changes are beginning to worry me... 

Edited October 28, 2019 by kristaok

[Ice Hole]

 

18 hours ago, kristaok said:

But isn't this the "essence of a decoy"? = https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/decoy

Love etymology.

De - is a prefix and has a meaning of down or away

Coy- is to attract or bring attention 

So "de coy" core meaning is to have attention brought down or away.

To cause a distraction and misdirect attention is another way to put it.  The use of decoy in hunting is more similar to the word bait as it draws the critter into a trap and not just change its attention focus. 

The reason I call the "drop bait and headsnot" exploity is it felt mechanical.  Not much room for a chaotic outcome the end result easily determined.  Plus when making a mistake the wolf is usually scared off and does no damage to the player.

🐺 The best part is that the  wolf behavior is being actively developed and our input might can aid this sculpture. 

 

🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺

🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺

🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺

🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺

Edited October 29, 2019 by Ice Hole

[hozz1235]

19 hours ago, kristaok said:

But yea I have said it before and I will say it again... I am pretty bummed that this was removed, not necessarily due to being able to one-shot the wolves or anything... but because the mechanics now are not nearly as realistic as they were.  

Have to say I agree.

[devamadhu]

On 10/29/2019 at 8:40 AM, Ice Hole said:

🐺 The best part is that the  wolf behavior is being actively developed and our input might can aid this sculpture. 

  Hide contents

 

Is that wolf emoji binary code????

[Serenity]

It's one thing to distract a wolf with a decoy to stop him tracking you. But you could place decoys while standing right next to them and they would completely ignore you. Whereas without a decoy they'd immediately charge you.

That said, wolves taking decoys from great distances is nonsense too. The better way would be to have them still charge you if you are too close to them. So the wolf sees you as a better meal if you're close enough. It shouldn't be tied to you drawing a weapon, since that would still allow you to bait a wolf and then shoot him as he walks away.

That could also increase the value of the distress pistol. You can decoy wolves when they stalk you from a certain distance, but if he is already next to you you may have to resort to using a flare

Edited October 30, 2019 by Serenity

[jhickie]

I'm glad they changed this, baiting the wolves into headshots was pretty easy once you get used to it. But the wolf taking the bait from 30m away? That's buggy and I hope it gets addressed.

Maybe we are expected to let them always take the bait, and shoot them while they are walking away? Still getting used to the new behavior.

[Looper]

On 10/28/2019 at 10:32 PM, kristaok said:

And I know it keeps being referred to as an "exploit", but I don't really get how that is so... of course I know it don't matter what I really think since it is what it is... but would it really be an "exploit" to (irl) drop some meat for a rabid charging animal to eat, then when they eat it - shoot them? NO. So how is this an "exploit" in the game? I mean I know Raph said that's not what the decoys were intended to do, but still it all doesn't make sense to me considering that's what decoys are for... oh well... 

Of course it's a clear exploit. No predator in real life will ignore you standing like 10 m from a rabbit carcass. They will be on guard probably attack you or wait for you to leave.

From a game perspective it's terrible. The safe headshot which works like 90-100 pct. is not what its meant to be and made the wolves totally without danger when you are armed.  

You will get used to it 😁

[Guest kristaok]

24 minutes ago, Looper said:

Of course it's a clear exploit.

So hunters in real life are committing an exploit when they use "DECOYS" to hunt game? Of course not. Just like I will never admit this is an exploit, and I will never like or agree to the changes. Yes I have to accept that the changes have occurred, but I won't ever agree to it because it's not an exploit in my opinion. 

In real life it wouldn't be an exploit to try to drop some meat to sway a charging animals attention, and when they sniff it head shot them. People will do just about anything to survive! so why can't we do this in the game?! Also it's not realistic how the mechanics work now, it's like why even drop a decoy it looks goofy.  I mean when I first dropped a decoy since the update and I saw that it immediately disappeared and the wolf fled, I thought oh this must be some sort of bug. I sadly found out not long after that nope... it's not a bug, the mechanics were changed to prevent some alleged "exploit". 

I have been on the forums for a while, I did take a few months break though after the Steadfast Ranger Update... but prior I was big into defending the game, but it's beginning to get harder for me do that  with so many changes like this one that absolutely makes no sense to me. I love this game so much, it's like one of my favorites and trust me I only have a couple other favorites, and I worry that this game is becoming too cinched. I sadly feel like it's becoming less and less a Sandbox in Survival Mode, I just don't feel like I am in control as much if that makes sense. I am not good with big changes, that is just how I am and that won't ever change. 

I know ultimately I have to accept what is because it is, what it is... but still, people have to realize people like me are going to be vocal if we don't like something that's just how I am. I am pretty blunt. My bluntness may come off as rude, but I never mean it that way, I just get really passionate about things.

PS. There are so many critters in the real life animal kingdom that use parts of their bodies as decoys to lure their prey, we would never say that is an exploit... But somehow using a decoy in The Long Dark is??? Again I will repost the definition of a decoy.

https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/decoy

  Quote

Definition of decoy - a bird or mammal, or an imitation of one, used by hunters to attract other birds or mammals

Edited October 30, 2019 by kristaok

[Guest kristaok]

Also isn't a part of Survival Mode which is like sort of a Sandbox in a sense, is being able to say hey I have this gun let me decoy and shoot this wolf or hey I don't have a gun I better drop this bait and flee? Why take that choice away from us? So it not only removes the choice from the player, but it also makes things look weird and unrealistic compared to the way it was where the wolf actually stopped to eat the bait.

Edited October 30, 2019 by kristaok

[ManicManiac]

29 minutes ago, kristaok said:

but I won't ever agree to it because it's not an exploit in my opinion. 

I understand where you are coming from - I really do, but to be fair... if Raph is saying that this is not how a feature is supposed to work, and considers it an exploit... then that's the opinion that really maters.  It's his game after all, he and his team made it... no one knows better than they do if a feature or mechanic is or is not working as they themselves intended.  (and Raph has already stated that it was not working as they intended - so they changed it, that's their right!)

On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 12:55 AM, ManicManiac said:

we all have our points of view, and our feelings on what we think that the game should be.
We also need to keep in mind that this is Hinterland's game, it's the experience they want to craft, and the story they want to tell.
Personally, I think it's better to accept and embrace the game for what it is...

The point is if Raph himself is calling it an exploit... then our opinions don't really hold water.  It's doesn't mater what we call it... if it's an exploit in their eyes, then it's officially an exploit (by definition).

Edited October 30, 2019 by ManicManiac

[JaySovereign]

On the topic of the essence of a decoy, I believe it should be changed, but the way it is now look like it's merely broken or bugged. Perhaps we could only have the wolves approach it if we back away from the bait, otherwise they'll charge for the fight. There's little to no reason why a wolf would get that close to a human, especially one holding a weapon. Even if they are hungry, I'm sure even they have some sense about them. Before they acted like puppies, running gleefully towards their next meal. Now they almost seem like they were dropped on the head...

[Guest kristaok]

11 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I understand where you are coming from - I really do, but to be fair... if Raph is saying that this is not how a feature is supposed to work, and considers it an exploit... then that's the opinion that really maters.  It's his game after all, he and his team made it... no one knows better than they do if a feature or mechanic is or is not working as they themselves intended.  (and Raph has already stated that it was not working as they intended - so they changed it, that's their right!)

The point is if Raph himself is calling it an exploit... then our opinions don't really hold water.  It's doesn't mater what we call it... if it's an exploit in their eyes, then it's officially an exploit (by definition).

I already know what Raph said, and yes he made the game... but we purchased the game, and we have a right to say how we feel. There's nothing wrong with me having an opinion, and I don't mind it if you think my opinion don't matter... that's okay, but I still have a right to express it. And I can't be the only one who dislikes this change considering I have had some likes and upvotes for voicing my opinion on the matter.

Also yes Raph said it's an exploit because he never intended it to be used to hunt the wolves, but again that is the very essence of a DECOY. By removing this option they are essentially giving the player less and less control / choices to play how they want. Instead of us being able to choose, they have already chosen for us which defeats the purpose of Survival / Sandbox Mode.  

PS. I respect Raph, I have nothing against him, but I do dislike / disagree with this change. And I don't want to offend him of course, or anyone else here, but this is just how I feel.... 

[ManicManiac]

@kristaok, I can respect your point of view... and I truly do.  I get that you don't like the change, but you made that clear many posts ago.  I myself won't discuss my opinion on this change because I respect Raph's right to make his game the way he wants to. 

However, it sounds like you seem to have this sense of entitlement that I don't agree with.  Just because we purchased a license to play the game doesn't mean it became our intellectual property.  Hinterland has the right to craft their game as they see fit.  As customers, our right is to decide if we want to support them or not...

You also seem to be consistently getting into ethical hunting topics... which I will not discuss with you.  Our opinions on what is or is not considered ethical for hunting have nothing to do with a video game... because again - as Raph said before: "Wait wait -- please don't use "realism" as an argument for or against a game mechanic (or any tuning around it). You've played this game long enough, or been in this community long enough, to know not to do that. We don't design for realism, and we don't use it as a metric to determine how something should or should not work in the game."

 

Also, I know I mentioned this before but:

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 6:31 AM, ManicManiac said:

In my opinion too many people get hung up on convincing themselves that their opinions are objective truths and that they are right in whatever statement they are making (which of course objectively is not the case - opinions are subjective in their very nature).  The general idea of my comment was meant to convey that I think it's better accept the game for what its...and then discuss our ideas for it.  This way we avoid a lot of the heated emotion that some folks attach to their opinions.

The moment people start tossing around their opinion like they know better than Hinterland what's going to be best for Hinterland's game... that's when I tend to perk up.

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by ManicManiac

[Guest kristaok]

20 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

@kristaok, I can respect your point of view... and I truly do.

No... no... no, you don't that is evident. If you respected my point of view you would give me the space to freely express it. I understand you disagree with that, and that is your right... but to try and halt me from expressing my view is wrong.

 

20 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

@kristaok, However, it sounds like you seem to have this sense of entitlement that I don't agree with. 

I am entitled to an opinion, yes... and I have stated my opinion, I am sorry that somehow bothers you so much?

 

20 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

@kristaok,You also seem to be consistently getting into ethical hunting topics... which I will not discuss with you.  Our opinions on what is or is not considered ethical for hunting have nothing to do with a video game...

So??? I definitely have my opinion when it comes to hunting, and using weapons that don't match a lot of views from those in other Countries, but that's just how it is. My views will NEVER change.

20 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

@kristaok,as Raph said before: "Wait wait -- please don't use "realism" as an argument for or against a game mechanic (or any tuning around it). You've played this game long enough, or been in this community long enough, to know not to do that. We don't design for realism, and we don't use it as a metric to determine how something should or should not work in the game."

I already know this... you posting it again and again won't change that I WILL use realism in my arguments. 

I get that they are not going for ultra realism, it's a game... I get that... but again there is nothing wrong with going for some realism, like in the case of the way dropping the decoys used to work. Dropping them and having the wolves actually eat them looked realistic, now they just disappear in thin air like some sort of magic trick which isn't very realistic.

...

I am sorry you don't want people to voice their opinions on the game that may not be positive enough to your liking, but everyone has a right to express their opinions.

I don't think it's right at all for anyone to try and snuff out someones opinion... that's what I think. This is all I am going to say about this to you specifically, because I don't feel comfortable having a discussion with someone who is trying to tell me how to feel or what to say.

Edited October 30, 2019 by kristaok

[ManicManiac]

@kristaok
 okay... this is the charged emotions attached to opinions I was hoping to avoid.  I don't keep you from expressing yourself... you do that at great length whether people want you to or not... Just like I do.  You have the right to express your opinions and I so do I...

I'll try again:

I wasn't suggesting that we shouldn't discuss our ideas about the game... what I am saying is that while we toss around our ideas, we not get so invested in them that to the point folks get angry or combative when people dare not to agree with them (they seem to take some personal offence when others don't agree with them, which I think is kind of infantile).

[Addendum]
*What I'm talking about here is not referencing any particular post in this thread... this is more of an overall explanation of why and when I take the stances that I do.*

In my opinion too many people get hung up on convincing themselves that their opinions are objective truths and that they are right in whatever statement they are making (which of course objectively is not the case - opinions are subjective in their very nature).  The general idea of my comment was meant to convey that if we accept the game for what its... then our discussion about what we think the game 'could' be would be much less infused with people's personal emotional baggage  

The moment people start tossing around their opinion like they know better than Hinterland what's going to be best for Hinterland's game... that's when I tend to perk up.  Again I think it's great to talk about ideas folks have for this game... but I don't think people should make declarative statements when they are expressing very subjective points of view.  I think people also need to remember that when they post on a forum they are inviting discussion.  They shouldn't be surprised when people comment on their ideas.  Nor should they expect everyone to rally around their idea and praise it as "...the way, and the light..." but some folks here act like that.  They get genuinely upset if folks dare to not "take their side." 

 

The short version is:  I'm all for the sharing of ideas, but I think people need to stop getting bent around the axel over their opinions.  I think people would be happier if they accepted the game as is... and then talk about things whey would like to see change (instead of clamoring for change just because they are personally frustrated or don't like a certain aspect).  That difference in attitude changes the perspective and tone.  Instead of coming from an over inflated sense of entitlement, it becomes actual constructive feedback/criticism.

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by ManicManiac

[Ice Hole]

Hunting wolves with bait is fine and is already part of the game.  Consider chasing rabbits and deer into a wolf.  The wolf chase the deer and then as it is eating the quick and easy headshot.  Guaranteed.  The extra carcass gives this strategy the best result.  This to me is baiting a trap.

When the decoy is used I am thinking it is being thrown towards the critter to make sure the attention is drawn away from me and onto the meat scrap.  

The previous mechanic was an exploit, people used to drop the tiniest of scraps and the wolf took much too long to eat it.

[Guest kristaok]

I found a contradiction, here on the Disclaimer it says they strive for realism in many areas... so realism isn't the enemy... but anyway, the next minute when someone brings up something saying it isn't realistic - they then claim that we should not bring up realism as an argument. Which is it though? are they striving for realism, or are they not? because the Disclaimer says they are striving for realism in at least some areas. So again realism is not the enemy here. There is nothing wrong with saying hey this isn't realistic. Now sometimes I admit because it's a video game you can't make everything ultra realistic, but we are talking about the decoy mechanics right now. So with that being said my argument on the matter would still stand, because it did go from being realistic, to now not being realistic. 

Also in the Disclaimer it mentioned that we are given choices to play with safely, the truth is our choices are being slowly removed from us...  and if some people can take that - that's cool... but again not everyone wants to see our choices removed especially considering most people play the Survival Mode which is a SANDBOX where player freedom should be promoted. We shouldn't be punished for our choices in Sandbox Mode, as long as we are not using any sort of cheats outside of the game.

[ManicManiac]

2 hours ago, kristaok said:

found a contradiction, here on the Disclaimer

You'd have to take that up with Raph...

Edited October 30, 2019 by ManicManiac