Cloth Hat is OP

[TheEldritchGod]

So, for 4 cloth I can make two craftable hats that grant me a total +2 to temp as well as +0.5% to wind resistance.

You have just rendered any head clothing item other than the Maple Leaf Wool Toque, The Bavaclava, Fleese Cowl, and the Craftible rabbit hat... pointless. The fact it is +1/0/+0.5 is bad enough, but to be able to wear two at the same time? Madness!

I like the Cloth Wrap Gloves. Those are fine. Those are balanced. But the hat is broken. Well... I'd prefer +0.2/0.2, but hey, that's just me. I like a clear demarcation between equipment tiers. The current values are still within acceptable parameters, however.

I would reduce the hat to 0.5/0.2 so it matches the cloth wrap gloves, and for the love of all that is holy, make it so it only can be selected for the inner head slot. There needs to be a gradient to these sorts of things. Each item having some sort of advantage to the others in the same tier. Given the sheer amount of cloth the game throws at you, this will be the first item any interloper will ever craft, followed by a second cloth hat for good measure.

I mean, seriously? What do you usually start with in Interloper? Socks and Jeans, usually in crappy condition. Step One, Scrap Both and use the cloth to make a hat. I have underwear. I don't need the jeans to prevent frostbite. EVEN IF the socks and jeans were at max value, I sacrifice +1.25/+0.0 for +1/+0.5 AND gain protection from frostbite for my head. And if my jeans and socks are at 50% or lower (which is typical) I VASTLY improve my situation by, at first opportunity, tear up my own clothes TO GET WARMER.

This is not the sort of behavior you should be encouraging in game play.

I approve of the items (well, I don't, but you made the craftable bunny hat, so I must concede that my objections to craftable hats are moot at this point.), but they should be something you slap on to prevent frostbite, not an item that you are likely to keep around for an extended period of time. I no longer have to make a swing by The Carter Dam for that guaranteed Scarf in the long corridor. It is no longer a must find on my interloper runs and is in fact nothing more then scrap at this point.

I doubt you will actually nerf the Cloth Hat, but I would be remiss if I did not point out such an egregious violation of game balance.

Edited May 7, 2019 by TheEldritchGod

[TheEldritchGod]

And before someone brings up the objection...

I would like to point out I just did a fresh interloper start and had 23% socks and 44% jeans. Having just started, it will take about 4 cloth to repair both to usable levels, assuming with my 70% chance of success I succeed on each attempt to repair my clothing, that is. The Average cloth actually needed is 5.714, assuming a perfect distribution of success/failure.

So I need to get... oh... let's round up: 6 cloth to get +0.25 warmth, and -0.5% wind resistance in comparison to the Cloth Hat. And I would argue that in Interloper opening game play, Wind Resistance is more valuable then core warmth. (As you accumulate more and more items with improved wind resistance, in mid and late stage interloper, Wind resistance becomes less and less relevant.)

Let us weigh all that effort against just scraping both and having a 100% chance of making a cloth hat.

Given that on some start locations, without a tool to scrap items in the environment, it may be difficult to find ANY cloth in the first place. The clear statistical choice is to shred your jeans and socks and make a hat, because you'll be warmer. I would even argue that over the long run, sport socks are more of a drain on valuable cloth then they are worth (and wasted carry capacity, but that's a different argument entirely.) and the jeans are going to be replaced as soon as I get enough Deer hide, so no big loss there.

So Again I state:

This. Is. Madness.

SHEER MADNESS

[ManicManiac]

It may get adjusted some more as time goes on.  Often, anything that first gets introduced will go though an adjustment and settling in period.

Edited May 7, 2019 by ManicManiac

[TheEldritchGod]

20 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

It may get adjusted some more as time goes on.  Often, anything that first gets introduced will go though an adjustment and settling in period.

One can hope. However, my experience has been, the longer an exploit remains in a game, the less likely it is removed. People come to expect the exploit so when it is corrected, it doesn't feel like a correction, but like a punishment. Hence why I am jumping on this immediately and stressing it so vehemently. I feel if the adjustment isn't done soon, it won't happen at all. I happen to like this game and would like to put off Game Complexity Collapse for as long as possible.

GCC Theory: The more features/sub-systems you add to a game, the more interactions between said features/sub-systems resulting in the exponentially increasing possibility of unforeseen results, usually of a game balance destroying nature. Eventually, with enough complexity, the game becomes unplayable. (i.e. World of Warcraft has been flirting with GCC for years now, with many classes having become "unplayable" in the opinion of hard core players.)

Edited May 7, 2019 by TheEldritchGod

[peteloud]

After 24 hours of impatient waiting I finally got ver. 1.48 .

The first thing that struck me was the sound.  The environmental sound seems to be much more detailed.  I am not sure if that has been altered or could it be that my volume is just higher for some other reason.

I immediately made a cloth cap and some hand wraps.  My first reaction is that they are a waste of time.  I am cursing that I used up 6 pieces of badly needed cloth in a tough game in TWM.  They just offer another hat and pair of gloves when there are already sufficient hats and gloves.

I am delighted to find that I can see my way around the PV farmhouse.  That was my biggest bugbear.  I even found some items I didn't know that I had dropped in the farmhouse.

The instant I stepped out of the farmhouse I had a sprain warning.  It appeared and disappeared so quickly couldn't work out the significance of it.

I have no idea when the revolver will turn up.  I am not bothered.  I am not into gun games.  It just seems like a complex variant of the flare pistol.

 

Back to the game to see what else I can find.

 

 

[Raphael van Lierop]

2 hours ago, TheEldritchGod said:

And before someone brings up the objection...

I would like to point out I just did a fresh interloper start and had 23% socks and 44% jeans. Having just started, it will take about 4 cloth to repair both to usable levels, assuming with my 70% chance of success I succeed on each attempt to repair my clothing, that is. The Average cloth actually needed is 5.714, assuming a perfect distribution of success/failure.

So I need to get... oh... let's round up: 6 cloth to get +0.25 warmth, and -0.5% wind resistance in comparison to the Cloth Hat. And I would argue that in Interloper opening game play, Wind Resistance is more valuable then core warmth. (As you accumulate more and more items with improved wind resistance, in mid and late stage interloper, Wind resistance becomes less and less relevant.)

Let us weigh all that effort against just scraping both and having a 100% chance of making a cloth hat.

Given that on some start locations, without a tool to scrap items in the environment, it may be difficult to find ANY cloth in the first place. The clear statistical choice is to shred your jeans and socks and make a hat, because you'll be warmer. I would even argue that over the long run, sport socks are more of a drain on valuable cloth then they are worth (and wasted carry capacity, but that's a different argument entirely.) and the jeans are going to be replaced as soon as I get enough Deer hide, so no big loss there.

So Again I state:

This. Is. Madness.

SHEER MADNESS

Calm down.   This has been in the wild for less than 24 hours. Do we get at least 48 hours to review and tune before we are written off as crazy/incompetent?

Sometimes you have Cloth but no hat or hand coverings. In those scenarios, the Improvised Hand and Head coverings could have a meaningful difference between life or death, especially if you're considering a frostbite scenario. 

[Pillock]

I agree with the general sentiment of the OP: I think the new hats are a bit too warm for the overall balance of other clothing.

Maybe if they got wet super fast, itd negate some of that? But yeah, cutting the warmth value in half would seem fair to me.

[peteloud]

My apologies for going beyond the cloth hat and hand wraps topic, but having mentioned a couple of other issues I feel I should add to those loose ends.

The discussion about the benefits of using cloth for a hat compared to wearing jeans is interesting, but such scenarios are only a very particular and very small part of the game.  I went back to a pre-v1.48 backup of my 900+ day, tough TWM game and reinstalled that, to get my bits of cloth back.  I'd rather go up TWM with my usual headgear and gloves and have the pieces of cloth for emergency repairs.

The sounds definitely seem much more detailed, interesting too.  I am looking forward to new sound experiences.

Although I am delighted to be able to see inside the PV farmhouse, and that the fire in the TWM mountaineer's hut is now not over bright I found that the Trapper's Cabin is still very dark.  I can see in there, but is unrealistically dark considering the number and position of the windows and compared with buildings like the ML Camp Office.

I have still not found a revolver, but I tested the new sighting on the rifle and bow.  I think it good.  In a 400+ day Pilgrim game which I use for demonstrating the game to friends, my level 5 bow and arrow skills easily killed a deer.  My level 4 rifle skill only hit the dear, but I couldn't get a head shot.  I thought that about right.

Personally I suspect that I will continue using the bow and arrow and leave rifles and revolvers at my base.

[Pillock]

1 hour ago, peteloud said:

The discussion about the benefits of using cloth for a hat compared to wearing jeans is interesting, but such scenarios are only a very particular and very small part of the game.  I went back to a pre-v1.48 backup of my 900+ day, tough TWM game and reinstalled that, to get my bits of cloth back.  I'd rather go up TWM with my usual headgear and gloves and have the pieces of cloth for emergency repairs.

To my mind, the new improvised wraps should be particular to a small part of the game:  emergency cover for when you don't have anything else - when you first start out, or perhaps just after a mauling and your clothes have been ruined.

But the head wrap is actually a good deal better than many of the ready-made headgear items you can find.

Put it this way: you have a baseball cap or a cotton scarf, plus one piece of scrap cloth; are you going to repair the item you have, or are you going to harvest it and make an improvised wrap? No-brainer - you make the improvised head wrap every time, because it's warmer, and there's no risk of failing the repair and wasting the cloth. This makes many existing headgear items utterly obsolete in terms of their actual survival value, which I think is bit of a shame.

The improvised wraps ought to be the worst -or at least joint worst- option in their category for warmth and wind protection - but better than nothing, like the description says.

[hozz1235]

@TheEldritchGod, I don't play loper so can't relate to how this may affect your game.  I do think your feedback is valuable, but the way you delivered it was...inflammatory to say the least.  This cannot be considered an exploit either.  If you think the hats are OP, don't use them (or just equip one).  Remember, custom settings can make the game as hard or as easy as you want, regardless of new items HL introduces.

[Loonsloon]

I tend to agree with the @TheEldritchGod. The improvised hat and mitts should provide next-to-no warmth. Moreover, part of the thrill of the early game is trying to find a hat and mitts to prevent frostbite. Now there is almost no possibility of frostbite. It’s like hypothermia - I really want to catch this affliction but have never been able to; almost like it’s not in the game.  Now frostbite is on the list of afflictions that never happen. Please consider removing the improvised wraps from interloper and/or gating them with level 2 mending. After all if we can instantly make cloth hats and mitts, why not long underwear, pants, shirts etc. This feature seems to be a nerf that was unnecessary. There are other nerfs in this update - birch bark tea. Who thought we need more condition recovery? We already have to turn it down/off in custom settings. I would have expected less condition recovery, as at present you can ignore all your needs so long as you can find 6 cattails and rest for 9 hours. Birch bark should have a fire starting bonus (natural accelerant). The pistol is also a bit of an encounter nerf. Plus we had the flare pistol which is already an encounter nerf. I’m going off topic a bit here but in general I don’t see why the game needed to be easier.  I would have preferred harder. Please understand that I love you guys and this is a truly awesome game; my critical feedback comes from a place of love!

Edited May 7, 2019 by Loonsloon

[Serenity]

Even in regular Interloper there is no reason whatsoever to immediately scrap your jeans for a cloth hat. Maybe in HRV. Otherwise you are never too far from shelter and other cloth sources. The only instances where you really may have to do that is stunts like spawning and staying on TWM.

Otherwise I agree that it should only offer the most minimal amount of temperature protection, but just be there to prevent frostbite

 

If you really want frostbite, go swimming and walk around with frozen boots

Edited May 7, 2019 by Serenity

[Sirdoeboy01]

I like the idea of having them based on your mending skill, maybe at level 1 mending you can still make them but they take a longer time to make and the stats are really low but as you level up in mending the stats get better.

[Guest kristaok]

No, I don't think the cloth hat whatever should be gimped. And I don't think that we should only be able to wear one. Sorry it's no from me. 

[Rexdawn]

I agree.  The hand wraps seem fine but I was shocked when I saw the warmth values for the hat.  I thought it was supposed to be minimalist frostbite protection, not the second-best cloth hat in Interloper.

[TheEldritchGod]

On 5/6/2019 at 11:50 PM, Raphael van Lierop said:

Calm down.   This has been in the wild for less than 24 hours. Do we get at least 48 hours to review and tune before we are written off as crazy/incompetent?

Sometimes you have Cloth but no hat or hand coverings. In those scenarios, the Improvised Hand and Head coverings could have a meaningful difference between life or death, especially if you're considering a frostbite scenario. 

Oh, I get that my "sensitivity" to mere fractional game imbalance is much higher then most, but you are talking to someone who spent years writing books statistically analyzing  d20 3.0/3.5. I have seen the effects of GCC take a wonderful game and render it silly. The ability to make a frog STROLL at supersonic speeds... ON STILTS. The Infamous Pun-Pun build (a first level character that could destroy and remake reality on a whim). The only way it could have been prevented, in retrospect, would have been aggressive push back against all the tiny flaws as they were released.

And lets fact facts. 4th edition sucked. It just did. It was an abortion of a game, day ONE.

Statistical analysis is my thing. I'm just good at seeing flaws. They jump out at me. Exploits just... appear obvious to me. And I like this game. So, when I find something broken I point it out. Aggressively. I have no desire to see what happened to previous games I liked happen here. Or rather, I wish to put off the inevitable as long as possible. GCC WILL ruin any game eventually. It's the flaw inherent in every game because every game is a simulation.

Either the game must stop growing and remain frozen in it' current state to prevent GCC, or it must grow and suffer its eventual fate. In the end, both are a form of death for a game. All games are simulations that are, by the nature of all games, simplified reality. Any simplification of a system leads to exploitable flaws. The margins are where they appear. The very small. The very large. Tiny details lead to huge problems. It is not a matter of IF but a matter of WHEN. I wish to put off WHEN for as long as is humanly possible.

Because no one... NO ONE... can see every possible outcome. This may seem like No Big Deal now, but how do you know this doesn't lead to the game breaking in a year? Yes yes, chances are it won't. Chances are everything is FINE. Statistically I know this. I also know, flip a coin and let it land on a table, sooner or later... it will land on an edge. It is only a matter of time. Game complexity makes the coin thicker. Abd that's not a bad thing.

Game complexity also increases a game's shelf life. It breathes new options and possibilities into a game. You WANT ever increasing game complexity. That's why I like the pace you are doing it. Slowly. Grudgingly. I approve of this. Some may complain about it being too slow, but they are players, not game designers. I know what kills a game.

If it is any consolation, I'm good with the rest of the update. Well, maybe the Sprain system could be toned down a little FOR EASIER DIFFICULTIES, I like it right where it is for Interloper, but I agree with some of the complaints it's a bit too... aggressive. But that's for another post.

[LkP]

42 minutes ago, TheEldritchGod said:

I also know, flip a coin and let it land on a table, sooner or later... it will land on an edge. It is only a matter of time.

Got some squared coins in your area ?

[TheEldritchGod]

14 minutes ago, LkP said:

Got some squared coins in your area ?

Seen it happen. Once. Landed on its edge leaning up against the side of the box they flipped the coin into. Normal Quarter. And don't say, "Doesn't count." It is in fact, my point. You never know how things will interact in every set of circumstances.

[LkP]

7 minutes ago, TheEldritchGod said:

Seen it happen. Once. Landed on its edge leaning up against the side of the box they flipped the coin into. Normal Quarter. And don't say, "Doesn't count." It is in fact, my point. You never know how things will interact in every set of circumstances.

You said "land on an edge", I was wondering what shape it has.

So it did land on the edge and a side. Of course, if stating "a coin can land on its edge" means because there are obstacles, or holes, or you catch it mid-air, sure, anything can happen.

My point is that there's flaws in every theory (ok, maybe here I should say every metaphor).
It doesn't mean that I don't enjoy reading it, or that I disagree. You made your point clear.

[Hotzn]

@TheEldritchGod, good work pointing out the temp issue, and good work backing it up. It's obvious you're passionate about the game.