Warmup bonus for freshly boiled water

[BareSkin]

Sounds strange I have to use a medecine-tea to get this bonus.

I f I have water I can pour in a can and heat up, sounds liek the same "warmth inside" as teas. Of course it would use a cooking spot, contrary to the teas, since water is easier to make.

Maybe this could be implemented in such a way that only "freshly" boiled water has a bonus, thus making it maybe somewhat useful to carry a portion of unsafe water in order to boil it on the spot? Would introduce one more risk/benefit between quantities of boiled and unsafe water a player would carry.

[Kendov]

While I agree it is weird that freshly boiled water does not give a heat bonus, we should not have to carry unsafe water for that. there's still a ~20min boiloff time once it is safe, so if we put safe water on the stove, it should still be hot after 5-10 minutes, but no longer than 20.

[Jolan]

Its been suggested a couple of times.  I would love to see this.  One of the ways it could work now would be using the reheating mech by placing a tin can next to the fire.  Or using one of the magic cups.  What would be really really cool is if we could use it to decrease the hypothermia potential percentage.

[Soul Sojourner]

Maybe we just need those electrolyte flavored water packets and kool-aid so we can drink warm kool-aid. Ohhhh yeahh! 

[Luciën]

If this would be introduced, I would also think you would need to be cautious about picking up hot recycled cans. Always carrying kitchen gloves or a blanket to help pouring it into one of these 95344 bottles of yours.

[BareSkin]

14 minutes ago, Luciën said:

If this would be introduced, I would also think you would need to be cautious about picking up hot recycled cans. Always carrying kitchen gloves or a blanket to help pouring it into one of these 95344 bottles of yours.

Burns already exist in the game and would be a nice trade-off, like if you drink a freshly brewed hot beverage you get burnt ("hot" state), but if you re-heat it ("warmed up" state) next to the fire it's fine? Would work with the canned foods too, you would HAVE TO refresh it a bit aside the fire before eating it or you get burns. The things is, warmup bonus on our actual freshly boiled water would be just too easy to obtain and would make it OP. Maybe this subject and the Thermos one have a common solution.

[Luciën]

Sounds fair, @BareSkin, trading length of the boiling for a bit less of a burn risk. But let's say if you wear rabbit mittens or any working gloves, heat doesn't hit you. It makes sense that gloves not only protect from cold, but also against the heat.

[Luciën]

Sorry for polluting this thread, by the way. Let's say that if boiled water would give a warmth bonus straight from the stove, in a plastic bottle it would lose its heat bonus fairly rapid. Given that plastic isn't the best insulation imaginable.

[NardoLoopa]

While this certainly "makes sense", it would alter the difficulty of the game significantly.  With a bit of planning, over half of your ventures out into the cold would start with the warmth bonus from a resource that is basically free (time+fire) and infinite.

[Luciën]

1 hour ago, NardoLoopa said:

While this certainly "makes sense", it would alter the difficulty of the game significantly.  With a bit of planning, over half of your ventures out into the cold would start with the warmth bonus from a resource that is basically free (time+fire) and infinite.

That makes a lot of sense!

[BareSkin]

6 hours ago, NardoLoopa said:

While this certainly "makes sense", it would alter the difficulty of the game significantly.  With a bit of planning, over half of your ventures out into the cold would start with the warmth bonus from a resource that is basically free (time+fire) and infinite.

That's why this topic also discusses the trade-off associated with the mechanic.

[TheEldritchGod]

Okay, lets discuss this for real:

The warmth bonus is Bullshit.

Sorry, but this whole, drink something warm wander about for an hour at reduced heat loss is total bullshit. It would never work that way. However, as an in game connivance, they have it exist. So, let's look at EXACTLY how this BS works.

In reality, drinking warm liquids would warm up your core, but it would only WARM UP YOUR CORE. If your core is already warm, it should have no effect. In fact, drinking hot liquids with an already warm core should cause detrimental effects, not give you the ability to wandering about naked in a blizzard.

But it does work in game. HOW? Simple. YOU ASSUME IT IS THE LIQUID. It is not. You can warm up peaches and get the same effect. It is not the liquid that warms your core, but the CALORIES that warm your core.

So, boiled water has no calories, ergo, water cannot cause the warmth bonus. This is why both tea and peaches keep you warm. The calories are doing the heavy lifting. So to have water without calories warm you up for an extended length of time is game breaking and ignores established in universe rules.

ADDENDUM: On further consideration, I would change it to Calories suspended in liquid give the warmth bonus, therefore the question should be, Why can't we cook sardines for a warmth bonus?"

[Drifter Man]

I agree with @TheEldritchGod that "getting warmed up" by hot drinks does not make much sense. I like it as a game mechanics, it adds variety to our options. I wouldn't like to see it extended from teas/coffee/canned food, which are somewhat limited in supply, to water, which is unlimited.

By the way, has anyone tried (in real life) to drink a substantial amount of hot water? I wouldn't want to do it, I feel it would probably turn my stomach upside down. The Chinese like drinking warm water though.

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, TheEldritchGod said:

Okay, lets discuss this for real:

Some good points.. which I want to use as an excuse to segue into my own thoughts on this freshly boiled water discussion...

Building on what @BareSkin said above, I'd like to see an affliction like:

"You just drank boiling water. You've burned your throat, and are now unable to eat for the next 72 hours."

This, and a minimum water cooldown period before drinking, would be a fun addition, IMO.

[Dawnshift]

3 hours ago, TheEldritchGod said:

...

In reality, drinking warm liquids would warm up your core, but it would only WARM UP YOUR CORE. If your core is already warm, it should have no effect. In fact, drinking hot liquids with an already warm core should cause detrimental effects, not give you the ability to wandering about naked in a blizzard.

...

I have to say i find the idea of having too much warmth, maybe also extented to (too much) warmth bonus indoors via clothing and other effects quite interesting. Certainly something to ponder.

3 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

I agree with @TheEldritchGod that "getting warmed up" by hot drinks does not make much sense. I like it as a game mechanics, it adds variety to our options. I wouldn't like to see it extended from teas/coffee/canned food, which are somewhat limited in supply, to water, which is unlimited.

By the way, has anyone tried (in real life) to drink a substantial amount of hot water? I wouldn't want to do it, I feel it would probably turn my stomach upside down. The Chinese like drinking warm water though.

More than 3 liters a day can lead to water intoxication. Mineral water - depending on mineral content amount - sooner for different and obvious reasons. Although it should be quite hard to do, i image.
Maybe a rework of the warming up / cooking for tea and coffee (so that you can take advantage of temperature 'sweet spots') might be fun.

[Pillock]

The warmth mechanic in TLD works on a "feels like" principle, rather than actual body temperature. There are other aspects of this that wouldn't make sense in reality, such as wearing warm boots and trousers to compensate for the fact that you've only got, say, a thin shirt on your upper body - you'd freeze like that, but in the game it's OK. It does make sense that drinking hot water - or even just holding a cup or can of hot water in your hands - would make you 'feel' warmer, but in terms of gameplay it definitely would need to be compensated for in some way in order not to ruin the balance of the game overall when it comes to solving the requirement to keep warm. Water is infinite, if you have fire - and that isn't infinite, but its availability depends on the Experience Mode or Custom settings you're playing with. So reducing the availability of fire-lighting would compensate for it a bit. Also, limiting the amount of water you can actually carry around with you by requiring you to obtain suitable, closable containers for that purpose would also compensate somewhat. The other thing that could be done would be to have water freeze after a while - not only would you have to unfreeze it again in order for you to use it, but you might also find that you were carrying a backpack full of ice around a lot of time, which could in turn reduce your "feels like" temperature. Finally, they'd have to get rid of, or alter, the 'exploit' that exists already for hot drinks...

you can take multiple small 'sips' of a hot beverage by pressing Escape just after you start drinking tea or coffee, and each small 'sip' gives you a warmth bonus. This way you can get multiple warmth bonuses from the same drink, if you only take it these tiny doses 

[TheEldritchGod]

Now THERE is something I want in game:

A HOT WATER BOTTLE.

I can wear three of them. One on my back under my shirt. One under the front, and one in my underwear.

[Soul Sojourner]

I personally think this all comes down to a fundamental problem with the temperature system. Right now our character is treated based on an "average" body temp. Cold body parts bring the average down and warm parts bring it up, and then the average applies to the body as a whole.

This is an issue because your hands could be freezing off while the rest of your body is warm and snug. You don't get a warmth bonus on your hands just because you're wearing a hat. I mean, technically you do, but it's very minor. Having the rest of your body warm does little to counteract the cold effects on a single body part.

As such, re-working the feels like system to apply to individual body parts would make considerably more sense. 

This affects the consumption of warm food and beverages, by allowing it to warm your core and extend only a minor impact on extremities.  Just my two cents.

[BareSkin]

I didn't know at all about the warmup bonus being associated with calories. But I'd rather have a 1 calorie Thermos water warming me up than having to use "medicine" to get a warmup. Of course water being warmup-able should come with strong trade-off since water is wildly available

9 hours ago, JAFO said:

"You just drank boiling water. You've burned your throat, and are now unable to eat for the next 72 hours."

What, we can eat in TLD? Rumors.

I like the idea though, that's a strong trade-off.

I'd also remove the bonus from medicines, It's disturbing to have these "magically" appearing cups of tea you can warm up on side-fire, anything having a warm bonus should come from a can (maybe a side-fire can?). You have to chose using the can to make water OR heat up a liquid. That would make the can opener more crucial.

Or we could say the boiled water only gives the protection (+sign) and the medicines give you also - like today - the upfront flat bonus in the temp bar making them more valuable.

 

9 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

The Chinese like drinking warm water though.

And that's not a good thing, throat cancers in Asia are believed to be really more frequent because of that. (They also usually smoke and breathe crap...)

 

10 hours ago, TheEldritchGod said:

but it would only WARM UP YOUR CORE

IMO, the "Core" is the blood system, which takes and dissipates heat everywhere, and in priority to "cold" parts because of thermodynamics. Warming any part warms the whole system that is still irrigated.

[Drifter Man]

17 hours ago, Dawnshift said:

More than 3 liters a day can lead to water intoxication. Mineral water - depending on mineral content amount - sooner for different and obvious reasons. Although it should be quite hard to do, i image.

I meant, if anyone has tried it and could stomach it - not if anyone has tried to kill themselves by drinking absurd amounts of water

[Ardawna]

I drink a lot of hot water. I does warm me up.  Hot food warms you up too.  I think it would be great in game to have hot water as a drink to warm you up. My vote is yes!

[BareSkin]

24 minutes ago, Ardawna said:

I drink a lot of hot water. I does warm me up.  Hot food warms you up too.  I think it would be great in game to have hot water as a drink to warm you up. My vote is yes!

The main point is about discussing what risk would be associated to balance this readily and vastly available warmups, what do you think about it? The goal has never been to make Survival easier

[Mroz4k]

Hi. Good points on both sides. I am on the side of the "no" to warm water bonus. Here are my reasons:

Just for the heck of it, I poured myself a glass of hot water from the sink. So nowhere near as hot as "close-to-boiling" water would be. Like @Drifter Man already mentioned, just this 0,25l of warm water I drank made me feel sick in my stomach. I imagine if I drank it often, it wouldnt have that effect, but for me, it does.

Mr. @TheEldritchGod makes some excellent points too. It is not the "water" which allows you to keep the temperature in you up, it is the calories in it. In fact, most "hot" beverages do not actually heat you up. I did a short net research, and I saw a simple explanation for everyone that I will steal: 1l of water weights roughly 1kg. Human body is made of roughly 70% water. So, lets assume that a person that weights 100 Kg is made of, lets say 60 liters of water. This water in our body has the temperature of "our core". If you added 1l of warmer water into the mix, it would hardly increase the temperature of your body.

THAT BEING SAID

The "bonus" of "Warming up" that is in the game is not untrue. But, it is not caused by the liquid. Like @TheEldritchGod rightly guessed, it is more likely locked to "liquified calories". I wont bore you with a chemistry lesson, in fact I am not quite sure I understand it properly myself - but liquified food is essentially much easier to digest, especially if already in the optimal warmth, and the body can sooner use it for its energy. Which is why drinking warm stews or canned goods can help warm you up. Now, why in the heck we cant warm up sardines I do not know... it would make perfect sense if we could. I guess that is just a game oversight, cant blame Hinterland for this, their game is pretty darn close to perfect already. (so huge props to @TheEldritchGod for realizing this!)

Same would go for any "caloric" warm beverages. Additionally, coffee and herbal tea (assuming it is an actual tea, not just herbs) - both contain caffeine and tein. These are alcaloids which push the blood out of your extremities to your core, warming you up (but ironically, by pushing blood out of your hands and feet, they would also make you more succeptible to afflictions like frostbite.)

Rose hips have lots of vitamin C, reishi has immune system boosting chemicals - while I am unsure about this, I believe both could contribute to the "feeling of warmth". From personal experience, drinking beverages rich in vitamin C does make me feel more energized and warm in cold winter. Not sure how relevant my personal experience is - I am an avid skiier since young age, and basically a trained ski instructor, though I dont have my licence.

I imagine most people voted "yes" on this suggestion because they want to have "renewable" type of food or drink that would give them the "warming up" bonus. Also, @NardoLoopa is correct to point out the "balance" issue hot water bonus would cause.

So how can we solve this connundrum, if not with a "hot water"? Here is my idea: 

Lets make some stew! Take a 1kg of meat, some 2l of clean water, a pot, and boil it all! Naturally, you can just re-heat stew later on, assuming you still have your pot. 
Now, to make it more balance friendly, I suggest this:
You need level 3 Cooking at minimum to be able to make stew.
It takes longer to cook than a steak. Like, at least 2 hours.
It provides 20% less calories than a steak would. Dont ask me how, it just does. It magically evaporates.
However, it also regains 1l worth of fluids. (the additional 1l evaporates. There is a lot of evaporation, all in the name of balance.)
It spoils, MUCH faster than a steak would.
It can be re-heated again just like other heatable food, but you need to have a "pot" to reheat it in. However, it still heats up in 20 mins like a normal drink would.
It weights 2kg in its complete state. Obviously, you can just eat a part of it and cancel it mid-way like with other food.

Additionally, if you boil some evergreen pines in a can of water, you can make a tea out of them which is also packed in Vitamin C, it tastes bitter but it does help you feel warm. But seeing as how easy it would be to find evergreen twigs, I doubt this item will make it into the game for balance issues. But the stew could - it makes a lot of sense, in my opinion!

 

On 19. 9. 2018 at 3:51 PM, JAFO said:

I'd like to see an affliction like:

"You just drank boiling water. You've burned your throat, and are now unable to eat for the next 72 hours."

Hehehe, hello @JAFO, long time no hear  There would be no need for this affliction, I think. Your own body´s reflexes would prevent this. If you put water so hot to cause burn irritation in your throat into your mouth, you would instinctively spit it out, and if you actually did swallow it up, You´d vomit immidiately.
It is the same as with not being able to drink up piping hot coffee in a single swoop. At least not for most people... most people tend to drink it in sips. And you can only really do that cause its a beverage - has some calories to it, not just plain water. 

[Drifter Man]

4 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Just for the heck of it, I poured myself a glass of hot water from the sink.

I appreciate your bravery in testing this idea... I once drank a small cup I got on a Chinese airliner and imagined that a normal full glass would be really hard to digest.

[Guest jeffpeng]

I think @Mroz4khit the nail on the head, several of them actually.

My initial thought about this was something like: If you can just drink warm water to acquire that heat bonus, the obvious balance change to compensate for this is to make the world colder. That in turn would make drinking hot water mandatory, so effectively it would remove the water bonus from beverages and canned food. Any other balance change, like burned throat afflictions, or burning your hand, or whatever you can think of ... I guess it would make something rather easy and intuitive complex and easy to mess up. I already see forum posts titling "died on my 250 days Stalker run by drinking hot water by accident". Nah, I don't see that happening.

But I must admit I really like the stew idea a ton. Sufficiently complex and hard to do, and potentially only available later (Cooking III) this would be an excellent way to have a replenishable way to gain the warmth bonus on higher-days games without skewing the difficulty scale.

Plus I really like stew.