suggestion Revert Animal Behavior While Passing Time

[Rumpo]

At first glance I had no issue with animals moving at real-time speed when passing time. However, the more I play the more I realize it's not a balanced or rewarding system.

For those not aware, when you passed time previously (passing time or performing an action that took time), the world around you would continue to move at roughly the same pace. If you passed two hours while staring at a wolf walking in the distance, the wolf would have barely moved by the time the two hours expired. Players (including myself) used this to "cheese" the hunting mechanics. You'd shoot an animal, pass a couple hours, and often that animal would be dead a few feet from where you shot it. With the Vigilant Flame update, however, animals now move at real time when you pass time. If you pass 24 minutes (I'll get to why I'm being so specific shortly), an animal will progress along its programed path for 24 minutes. This means you have to be ultra aware of your surroundings. Pass time while standing by a tree and you might have a predator on top of you. At first glance, it adds an element of accountability. You need to ensure you're safe before you pass time or perform an action. I get the reasoning behind it, but it's flawed in result.

Earlier today I took a walkabout in Timberwolf Mountain. I was going to head up in search of epic loot but spotted a moose near the wing. It's the first once I've seen on this run, so I decided to cancel my trip and hunt it. I killed it with a single shot from my bow and approached the carcass. Now, I knew the bear was in its cave. I saw when I passed by. I crouched by the moose and listened for footsteps, crows, and breathing. It seemed I was good. I harvested only the moose hide, which took 24 minutes. When the time expired I exited the harvesting menu and was face to face with the bear. I had no escape and was mauled, ruining a lot of my gear and nearly killing me.

My problem is that harvesting can take hours depending on skill, conditions, and quantity. Bears have an insanely large path in some cases. You could theoretically kill a deer at the Pleasant Valley Farmstead, look in all directions and see that it's clear, go to harvest, and have a bear that traveled across the map to give you hugs when you're done. That scenario could end a run which has dozens of hours of gameplay invested in it due to chance. What about Coastal Townsite? You could kill the moose there and start to harvest, only to have a bear walk from Misanthrope's Homestead to eat you.

Again, I get the intent of the system, but because the player is essentially helpless while performing an action, it doesn't work. If I were able to continue to use my senses while harvesting (or performing any other action), then quickly abort and run away if I heard/saw/sensed danger, it would be fine, but I can't. I can't hear the bear walking up over the hill and run away. The system demands that you be aware of your surroundings, but then removes your ability to maintain awareness.

My suggestion is to revert back to the old system only when performing an action. If I'm harvesting, the animals do not move at real time. However, if I pass time because I'm being lazy, the animals move in real time. This eliminates the "cheese" techniques while hunting, and doesn't punish the player for harvesting, crafting, chopping wood, or anything else relevant to their survival.

[Deerber]

Better yet would be to keep them moving in real time but have your actions interrupted when a predator approaches. Like it would be in reality, I guess.

[Vince 49]

@Rumpo, I hope the designers hear your plea.  For now, I'm sticking to good old version 1.29. 

 

[stratvox]

This issue in particular was dealt with in the hotfix (i.e. 1.34). Now, so long as no predator is already locked on to you when you start your time passing activity, you won't be able to be detected by it while you're in the weeds of whatever it is you're doing (mapping, harvesting, chopping up tree limbs, etc).

You may get detected nearly instantly when you come out, but you won't get attacked while you're in it with no chance to defend yourself.

[Samsonguy920]

Would seem this has been dealt with. Just make sure you aren't being stalked before you get into a chore, and you should be fine.

[bighara]

I don't know. I had a very similar situation just yesterday. I had tracked a wounded deer to near the Unnamed Pond. I may be wrong, but I didn't see or hear Yogi around at all. I went to quarter the deer and ended up mauled.

[Rumpo]

3 hours ago, Samsonguy920 said:

Would seem this has been dealt with. Just make sure you aren't being stalked before you get into a chore, and you should be fine.

It has not been dealt with. The bear walked up next to me (obviously not detecting me while I was harvesting), and the moment I exited the harvesting menu it was two feet away, detected me, then wrecked my face. The problem is predators can move within striking distance, and when they detect you as you exit the menu, you're still boned.

[Rumpo]

3 hours ago, Samsonguy920 said:

Would seem this has been dealt with. Just make sure you aren't being stalked before you get into a chore, and you should be fine.

Nope. This was after the update. The problem is they can path close to you, detect you the moment you exit the menu, and mess you up.

[Rumpo]

4 hours ago, stratvox said:

This issue in particular was dealt with in the hotfix (i.e. 1.34). Now, so long as no predator is already locked on to you when you start your time passing activity, you won't be able to be detected by it while you're in the weeds of whatever it is you're doing (mapping, harvesting, chopping up tree limbs, etc).

You may get detected nearly instantly when you come out, but you won't get attacked while you're in it with no chance to defend yourself.

I'm speaking about after the hot fix. The bear did not detect me while I was harvesting, but when I left the menu it was basically on top of me just from its natural path. If a bear can be next to you (even undetected while harvesting), it will detect you the moment you exit the menu and you won't have time to get away. My entire post was saying that it's broken even after the hot fix. It still doesn't work well.

[Drifter Man]

Yes, I thought about this happening after the hotfix was released. Predators not attacking you during the compressed time action, but walking up next to you and striking as soon as you are finished.

With that said, it seems to me like an insane fluke that the bear ended up right next to you right at the time you were finished. I would guess that if the player crouches before harvesting a carcass, the probability of being attacked like this should be extremely low. So I think that there is some unintended behavior in effect that drove the bear right next to you and made it wait for you there to finish. If this behavior can be eliminated - i.e. that predators will ignore you completely, including scent and all that stuff - I believe things would start working to everyone's satisfaction.

[TheEldritchGod]

I actually want it BACK the way it was before the hotfix. I WANT bears to attack me while I'm harvesting. First time in FOREVER I actually was scared while playing the game. Almost lost my 500 day stalker run. Had to struggle so hard to get somewhere safe. Flirted with 3% condition and lost my hat.

It was AWESOME.

[Stone]

Realism would put you at risk while harvesting but let you free look and interrupt the action. You'd want to consider how likely a predator is: harvesting near a bear cave would be asking for trouble. For temperature reasons I'm usually harvesting with the a fire which takes care of wolves and I avoid bear areas unless I'm after the bear itself. This has always felt very on theme. 

[Hotzn]

Difficult & interesting topic. After some tinking, my preferred solution would be like this:

Any time compression should also compress time for the whole game world - so regardless whether you are harvesting, sleeping or just passing time, animals should move faster, and the weather should change faster as well (which the latter already did before the Vigilant Flame update). This does not raise any questions of weirdness or timelines not corresponding with one another.

Time compression should be stopped if an a potentially dangerous animal (ie a wolf, bear or moose) locks onto you. A warning text might be given, like "Sensing danger, you hesitate" or some such. That would give you time to react, but would still introduce the conflict between the animal and you over your prey. Further details:

Wolves: If a wolf locks onto you, the choices you have depend on the distance. If the wolf is far away, you have a lot of options (this is often the case when the scent attracts the wolf). I would presume that if you harvest fresh meat or other smelly stuff under time compression, your smelliness rises with every harvested piece. So it's likely that a wolf would detect you when you have just finished harvesting a piece. Consequence: You most likely do not lose much of your harvesting time due to the interruption. If the wolf is close when it detects you (let's say the wolf turns around a boulder and sees from close distance), you may be forced into a fight. This could also happen during time compression (if the wolf turns around an obstacle). But this seems acceptable, since a) you have the choice whether you harvest a carcass lying in the vicinity of obstacles obstructing your view and b) you can generally protect yourself from wolves with fire.

Bears: Same as above - you still have time if the bear locks onto you from the distance, and that should be the majority of cases. In the - potentially rare - cases in which a bear turns around an obstacle and is suddenly close by, I think a mauling is acceptable (again, you have the choice whether or not to harvest near obstacles).

Moose: Unfortunately, I have no experience yet with the moose and therefore cannot say how potential maulings during time compression could be remedied.

Another thing: From the last hotfix' changelist, I have gathered that animals now don't detect the player during time compression. Maybe it could be made so that animals do not go near a fire during time compression either. So a fire would protect from bears and moose as well as against wolves. But against bear and moose only during time compression.

[Samsonguy920]

On 6/24/2018 at 7:05 PM, Rumpo said:

It has not been dealt with. The bear walked up next to me (obviously not detecting me while I was harvesting), and the moment I exited the harvesting menu it was two feet away, detected me, then wrecked my face. The problem is predators can move within striking distance, and when they detect you as you exit the menu, you're still boned.

So what you are saying is either you didn't see the bear and therefore didn't look for it before hand, or you unwisely thought it wouldn't come near you.  It's a bear. They only move fast when they are chasing something. Otherwise their pace is about slower than your character when they are tired and over-encumbered.

...Unless you are trying to claim it spawned after you started to harvest. That's a discussion for the troubleshooting forums, as I am quite sure that should not be happening whatsoever.

I mean, seriously, what is it you want? Do you want the animals to just treat you like Snow White all the time?  In case you forgot, the game is about SURVIVAL.  Not even hunters out in the wild during normal times will hang around after making a kill if they suspect wolf packs or a hungry bear is around. They will either take the kill and move out, or deal with the threat and then move on. You do not throw caution to the wind unless you are two steps from dying, in which case you are probably going to die if the only thing you got to survive is a carcass.

[Rumpo]

On 6/25/2018 at 3:56 AM, Stone said:

Realism would put you at risk while harvesting but let you free look and interrupt the action. You'd want to consider how likely a predator is: harvesting near a bear cave would be asking for trouble. For temperature reasons I'm usually harvesting with the a fire which takes care of wolves and I avoid bear areas unless I'm after the bear itself. This has always felt very on theme. 

Oh, I know that in my example I was not being careful enough, but with the huge routes that some bears have, it won't matter. Will it be rare? Sure, but tell that to the person who loses a 500 day run because of a fluke bear from halfway across Coastal Highway.

[Rumpo]

On 6/24/2018 at 9:44 PM, Drifter Man said:

Yes, I thought about this happening after the hotfix was released. Predators not attacking you during the compressed time action, but walking up next to you and striking as soon as you are finished.

With that said, it seems to me like an insane fluke that the bear ended up right next to you right at the time you were finished. I would guess that if the player crouches before harvesting a carcass, the probability of being attacked like this should be extremely low. So I think that there is some unintended behavior in effect that drove the bear right next to you and made it wait for you there to finish. If this behavior can be eliminated - i.e. that predators will ignore you completely, including scent and all that stuff - I believe things would start working to everyone's satisfaction.

I was crouched. No scent. I play with music off and stopped and listened to make sure it wasn't close. It just happened to be on one of the paths the bear can go, and it did. I could have avoided that scenario, sure, but the way the mechanic works will bite people in the butt, and it just feels a bit like a rip off to me. Just my opinion. I could be in the minority.

[Rumpo]

On 6/25/2018 at 4:21 AM, Hotzn said:

Difficult & interesting topic. After some tinking, my preferred solution would be like this:

Any time compression should also compress time for the whole game world - so regardless whether you are harvesting, sleeping or just passing time, animals should move faster, and the weather should change faster as well (which the latter already did before the Vigilant Flame update). This does not raise any questions of weirdness or timelines not corresponding with one another.

Time compression should be stopped if an a potentially dangerous animal (ie a wolf, bear or moose) locks onto you. A warning text might be given, like "Sensing danger, you hesitate" or some such. That would give you time to react, but would still introduce the conflict between the animal and you over your prey. Further details:

Wolves: If a wolf locks onto you, the choices you have depend on the distance. If the wolf is far away, you have a lot of options (this is often the case when the scent attracts the wolf). I would presume that if you harvest fresh meat or other smelly stuff under time compression, your smelliness rises with every harvested piece. So it's likely that a wolf would detect you when you have just finished harvesting a piece. Consequence: You most likely do not lose much of your harvesting time due to the interruption. If the wolf is close when it detects you (let's say the wolf turns around a boulder and sees from close distance), you may be forced into a fight. This could also happen during time compression (if the wolf turns around an obstacle). But this seems acceptable, since a) you have the choice whether you harvest a carcass lying in the vicinity of obstacles obstructing your view and b) you can generally protect yourself from wolves with fire.

Bears: Same as above - you still have time if the bear locks onto you from the distance, and that should be the majority of cases. In the - potentially rare - cases in which a bear turns around an obstacle and is suddenly close by, I think a mauling is acceptable (again, you have the choice whether or not to harvest near obstacles).

Moose: Unfortunately, I have no experience yet with the moose and therefore cannot say how potential maulings during time compression could be remedied.

Another thing: From the last hotfix' changelist, I have gathered that animals now don't detect the player during time compression. Maybe it could be made so that animals do not go near a fire during time compression either. So a fire would protect from bears and moose as well as against wolves. But against bear and moose only during time compression.

Interesting thoughts. What about having a zone of control around the player? So while you're harvesting, nothing can come within a certain distance of you from any direction. This is unless you start harvesting with an animal already in that zone. In my case in Timberwolf Mountain, I'd still be boned. I harvested a moose when I knew a bear wasn't far away. I got punished. I accept that. But if I make sure that my zone is clear, then harvest, I'm good. However, as soon a I'm done and I start to walk, all bets are off. Animals could wander close again, could pick up my scent from the zone perimeter, etc.

[Rumpo]

On 6/25/2018 at 11:33 PM, Samsonguy920 said:

So what you are saying is either you didn't see the bear and therefore didn't look for it before hand, or you unwisely thought it wouldn't come near you.  It's a bear. They only move fast when they are chasing something. Otherwise their pace is about slower than your character when they are tired and over-encumbered.

...Unless you are trying to claim it spawned after you started to harvest. That's a discussion for the troubleshooting forums, as I am quite sure that should not be happening whatsoever.

I mean, seriously, what is it you want? Do you want the animals to just treat you like Snow White all the time?  In case you forgot, the game is about SURVIVAL.  Not even hunters out in the wild during normal times will hang around after making a kill if they suspect wolf packs or a hungry bear is around. They will either take the kill and move out, or deal with the threat and then move on. You do not throw caution to the wind unless you are two steps from dying, in which case you are probably going to die if the only thing you got to survive is a carcass.

Regarding your first paragraph: Please refer to my original post where I mentioned that I knew the bear was there. I walked by it at its cave before I reached the moose. My situation was my fault. I forgot the new system was in place and got burned. I accept that. I listened and looked before harvesting and expected time to work the way it did previously and it did not. I'm not mad about what happened to me, I'm concerned about the system in general.

Regarding your second paragraph: Reading my original post should also clear this up.

Your third paragraph: As I'm sure you are as well, I'm a highly-skilled player who has high-level knowledge of the maps and mechanics in this game. If I wanted to be treated like Snow White, I'd play Pilgrim or Custom. Let's drop the sarcasm and show each other some respect while we debate a mechanic in a game we both love and want the best for.

I've outlined what I'd like to see done both in my original post and in other replies. I deserved what happened to me. However, let's talk about Coastal Highway, and I'll assume your own intimate game knowledge will allow you to follow along.

The bear above the Coastal Townsite can can walk in and around the entire town. It could be at its cave when you start to harvest and walk down into the town, never detecting you. However, if you're simply unlucky, that bear could be within feet of you the moment you exit the harvest screen. Maybe you make it to a building or car, or maybe you don't. Either way, the only real solution is to hunt that bear before you hunt the moose.

How about the bear at Misanthrope's Homestead? It controls triangular area that includes the Waterfront Cottages (roughly) all the way to the Coastal House (roughly). So everything in that triangle is dangerous. You could be harvesting an animal at the Coastal Townsite dock and that bear could walk across the lake and be sitting in your lap when you exit the harvesting screen.

I think the system could use another pass and additional thought. If I lost my run because I forgot how a new mechanic worked and took a chance that I shouldn't have anyway, fine. If I lost a run because a bear crossed between time zones and just happened to be two feet from me as I exited the menu, that would suck.

[Jolan]

A possible solution would be to have partial awareness of the surrounding area - like what you have when you sketch.  But only if you can break it off.  I really can't imagine anyone in this environment would be so immersed in a task where they lose all hearing and sight, and never took a break or looked up for an hour or more.  Even when you're lighting a fire in the game you have some situational awareness.  

[Guest Jeffery Simpson]

Let’s keep the ad hominem attacks off the forums. We can disagree without being snippy. 

Thanks. 

[Drifter Man]

19 hours ago, Rumpo said:

I was crouched. No scent. I play with music off and stopped and listened to make sure it wasn't close. It just happened to be on one of the paths the bear can go, and it did. I could have avoided that scenario, sure, but the way the mechanic works will bite people in the butt, and it just feels a bit like a rip off to me. Just my opinion. I could be in the minority.

I agree with you, player shouldn't get randomly attacked like this.

What I observed long ago, even before scent was introduced as we know it now, is that bears tend to home in on you when you harvest a carcass. I remember three occasions when I worked on a carcass in a bear zone and the bear went (at a slow pace) straight for me, from far away. In two cases I killed it with a flare pistol, in another I withdrew. The bear just sniffed the carcass and went on on its way.

So I speculate that this mechanic attracted the bear to your place rather than the attack being pure chance. Either this mechanic should be suppressed or something else done.

[Hotzn]

On 29.6.2018 at 4:49 AM, Rumpo said:

Interesting thoughts. What about having a zone of control around the player? So while you're harvesting, nothing can come within a certain distance of you from any direction. This is unless you start harvesting with an animal already in that zone. In my case in Timberwolf Mountain, I'd still be boned. I harvested a moose when I knew a bear wasn't far away. I got punished. I accept that. But if I make sure that my zone is clear, then harvest, I'm good. However, as soon a I'm done and I start to walk, all bets are off. Animals could wander close again, could pick up my scent from the zone perimeter, etc.

That sounds like an acceptable solution as well, although impatient players might be unable to understand the mechanics and become frustrated about seemingly "unavoidable" attacks. If the harvesting process was interrupted with a warning, everybody would understand what's up.

[Kaisentlaia]

What about having the character say something on the line of "What was that noise?" when an animal walks nearby, and having the time acceleration slow down for a few seconds to allow the player to cancel the action before the animals gets too close for comfort?

[Pisces0314]

One time, I got out of Quonset Garage and broke down some pallets outside to gather some reclaimed wood. After finishing the task, a bear appeared and was super close to me, about 2 meters away. It was facing away from me at that time. It scared the hell out of me. Not knowing the reason behind, the bear seemed not to aware my presence. Even when I was carrying a ruined rabbit meat in my backpack. Was this due to the recent updates or anything else?

[MrWolf]

On 6/29/2018 at 6:45 PM, Drifter Man said:

What I observed long ago, even before scent was introduced as we know it now, is that bears tend to home in on you when you harvest a carcass. I remember three occasions when I worked on a carcass in a bear zone and the bear went (at a slow pace) straight for me, from far away. In two cases I killed it with a flare pistol, in another I withdrew. The bear just sniffed the carcass and went on on its way.

I've noticed that, too.  I think as you're harvesting and holding the meat or guts, bears and wolves can be attracted to the place where you acquire the smelly stuff.  It's the same behavior if you see a wolf or bear in the distance walking toward you.  Drop all decoys and they change their route, pick up the stuff again and they come toward you.  If they have not locked on to you, they'll come to the place where you picked up the smelly stuff.  You can use that to help evade wolves and bears sometimes.

I like that animals move quicker during passed time.  It certainly adds another danger to the game.  Unless I'm absolutely sure I'm harvesting in a safe place, I'll crouch and drop all decoys then harvest a small amount at a time - 1 kg of meat, 1 gut, etc.  When I come out of harvesting, I hit the decoy key to drop it all and take a quick look around, then repeat until I get it all.