Debunking a Cougar myth

[Raphael van Lierop]

Now that some of the "heat" around the Cougar launch has died down (somewhat), and we are busy working on a revamped version, I want to take a moment to debunk a claim that was made by some folks in our player community, a claim that actually created a lot of unnecessary issues for us at a time where we were trying to parse player feedback and sentiment after launching Part Five of TALES.

Some folks found that by using the modded dev console, they could spawn a Cougar in the world. The Cougar would "move around" and would run to attack them. This was different from the implementation we shipped, where the Cougar would attack you suddenly, after many days of map warnings and other bits of UI telling you "hey, if you don't leave, you're going to get shanked by a Cougar".

(I'm not here to argue or defend the original design, except to say we had good design intent behind our original implementation.)

The reason I'm bringing it up now is that seeing this debug behaviour in the game led some folks to the conclusion that we had implemented a different version of the Cougar, one that was more freeform and able to move through the world (differently from the version we shipped), and that for some reason we "couldn't make that version work" so we shipped the version we shipped, as some kind of compromise.

In fact, as the Cougar was built using our base animal AI -- shared by the Wolves and other wildlife -- what you saw was some basic behaviour (run from a detection distance, to attack the player) that the Cougar entity responded to once spawned into the world. It was able to run because it also runs in the version we shipped -- it runs away from you after the attack. If you saw the debug/modded version, you'll notice a lot of sliding and awkward pivoting as it moves around. This is because it wasn't animated to do those things, because those were not intended behaviours for the Cougar (in our shipped design).

The fact that it would "attack" you by running straight at you and then struggle if it got close, is simply the AI doing what the system is designed to do outside the specific construct of the cougar encounter as we had designed it. But this is simply debug behaviour, entirely expected as a tool for development, and never intended to be seen outside of the dev team.

Sometimes when people are upset about something we have made or released, they come up with theories about why we did a certain thing. Often, these theories are not super complimentary to us. Sometimes when people are upset about something, they interpret certain outcomes as having some kind of mal-intent on our part, like we are trying to cut corners or "cheat" our players of something. I'm not sure why we would ever do this, or why anyone who has played our game for years would think we would do this, but there it is.

My intention here is to explain why you were able to see certain behaviours you might have seen, and debunk the idea that we had a "better" version of the Cougar that we ended up pulling because we couldn't make it work, and then shipped a "lesser" version of it to you due to cutting corners or wanting to avoid work, or whatever. The dev team works super hard to ensure everything we make is as good as we can make it. It's understandable that not everything we release is maybe exactly as people would like to have it, and yes sometimes there are more bugs that slip through than anyone (us or you) would like! I'm not here to argue about whether our first Cougar implementation was good or not (if I thought it was "bad" I wouldn't have shipped it), but I just wanted to clarify that specific thing about the debug Cougar behaviour, because it seems that if we don't address these things head-on, they become a "truth" that is perpetuated within some corners of our player community, particularly if/when they are angry at us about something.

I probably won't convince some folks, but I'm hoping this info is useful to some of you, and helps you understand some things about development, and also why not everything that can be accomplished through the dev console means exactly what you might think it means. A lot of what you experience in a game is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the systems and content underneath, a lot of what you experience in a game is "smoke and mirrors" based on how we manipulate game systems and content to create a certain experience for you. Sometimes when you look under the hood, some of the magic gets lost. You can bring your own interpretation to it, of course. But it doesn't mean that interpretation is correct.

[ManicManiac]

@Raphael van Lierop

Thank you.
I very much appreciate how candid and forthright you've always been with your community.  I imagine that your time is also increasingly taxed (by all those things in and around running a studio and creating a game of with this vast a scope/complexity)... so I will just say that I also do really appreciate the kind consideration you afford us here on the forums when you are able to make time to share things with us.

I am a bit sad that folks didn't give it a couple weeks to really give the cougar a chance to see what the fullness of your intended vision for it really felt like in the context of our own individual playstyles.

In any case, I appreciate you taking the time to share this with us... and I happily wait to see the cougar return to Great Bear Island in the future.

Edited July 15 by ManicManiac

[MarrowStone]

Thanks for your explanation! I kind of assumed that was the case though, so none needed here.

I'm glad the base animal AI isnt the type of encounter you went with the cougar too. It needs to be different than "creature charges player upon detection". But of course, having the system in place already makes it an efficient debug.

[ElSuperGecko]

Thanks for sharing this - very interesting to read and see this cleared up.

Looking forward to having our footsteps haunted by hissing and yowling again soon...

[Leeanda]

Thank you for taking the time to clarify this,it's very much appreciated,as is the time you spend on the forum..  it's so rare to see interaction between staff and players ,even with just technical support  .it shows your dedication and love for the game and the community..

[snowmeow]

Thanks for the clarification, makes sense to me.

Looking forward to the return of the kitty! 🐈😁

[upnorth]

You might have already explained this, I haven't come across it in that case though. But why did you (personally or the studio as a whole) decide that it would be better with just UI hints for the Cougar when all other predators can be found roaming the world? Did you want to try something new? Was it a resource (saving) issue? How did you end up with the warnings-only concept? It might help to clear up some confusion to learn more about the design process (what you seem to call "design intent") for it since it's become such a hot topic  🙂

To be fair, I kind of like the player getting "the chills" (warnings) without actually seeing anything, especially in areas cougars are likely to hang out. But only as a complement to being able to spot the animal as usual. I think that's needed for immersion, since that's how every other predator encounter works in the game.

Edited July 16 by upnorth

[Raphael van Lierop]

14 hours ago, upnorth said:

You might have already explained this, I haven't come across it in that case though. But why did you (personally or the studio as a whole) decide that it would be better with just UI hints for the Cougar when all other predators can be found roaming the world? Did you want to try something new? Was it a resource (saving) issue? How did you end up with the warnings-only concept? It might help to clear up some confusion to learn more about the design process (what you seem to call "design intent") for it since it's become such a hot topic  🙂

To be fair, I kind of like the player getting "the chills" (warnings) without actually seeing anything, especially in areas cougars are likely to hang out. But only as a complement to being able to spot the animal as usual. I think that's needed for immersion, since that's how every other predator encounter works in the game.

We wanted to create a different experience than the other wildlife, and give the Cougar a different gameplay purpose. The idea of territory control and using it as a way to move the player around the world was always part of the plan. Since the attack would be unavoidable once you "ran out of time" with the Cougar, and since the attack is so severe, it was super important to ensure the player had PLENTY of warning ahead of time. And since you'd need to move house if you ended up with a Cougar in your region, we wanted to make sure you had enough time to react to this by stocking up supplies, moving things from one safehouse to another, etc. etc. You needed days of notice. And then also, you needed to know when it would be safe to come back. Etc etc. It's impossible to rely solely on diegetic feedback systems for stuff this dangerous, and inevitably the more "immersive" the feedback, the greater chance of someone missing it, getting killed, and feeling cheated.

Putting the timing info (days to cougar encroachment, days to cougar withdrawal) on the map and on the HUD was a way to ensure players noticed it and had plenty of warning. The Cougar was intended to be something to be feared and avoided, not something to be actively sought out. Also, we don't simply want every animal in the world to be a resource there for the player's taking. You are not the alpha predator in TLD, unlike other games. You will eventually die (or, you are supposed to), and the Cougar was meant to be kind of a corrective reminder of that fact. To be honest, the fact that many players wanted to see it in the world so they could hunt it was disappointing to me. I get it, because for some people everything in the game is a resource, and that of course makes sense on many levels because that's what the game is built around,  and you want to see the things that are new, but I also like the idea of putting something in the game that ISN'T for your use, your taking, but more a reminder that you are not the ultimate power in this world. You're just another fragile human that will eventually succumb...

I don't think it's important that the Cougar work a certain way simply because "that's how every other predator encounter works in the game". That's exactly the point of doing something different. If we just wanted to make another wolf but one that looks like a Cougar, that would have been relatively easy. What we built and shipped was a much deeper system than that. (Which isn't to say people enjoyed it or even understood it.)

FWIW, in nature cougars are notoriously hard to see/detect and they are known for being silent killers, stalkers, and ambushers. I've lived in remote areas with Cougars around and have some experience with them. But those were the characteristics we were playing with in our design. Territorial, nearly impossible to see, and by the time you know they are there, it's already too late...

(I'm not explaining all this so other people will offer "but if you had done it this way then..."; simply providing some insight into our original design intent.)

[Ghurcb]

3 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

To be honest, the fact that many players wanted to see it in the world so they could hunt it was disappointing to me. I get it, because for some people everything in the game is a resource, and that of course makes sense on many levels because that's what the game is built around,  and you want to see the things that are new, but I also like the idea of putting something in the game that ISN'T for your use, your taking, but more a reminder that you are not the ultimate power in this world.

I don't know, personally, I wanted to see the cougar as a physical entity in the world not to hunt it, but to be hunted. The way it was implemented at first felt like a shorthand for being hunted. There was no need to look around, listen to every little sound hoping to spot the danger before it's too late to tun and hide, no need to tremble in fear when the fog rolls in possibly hiding this apex predator from sight. Nope, the cougar attack will happen when it happens, so you can just as well relax.

Really, I think the items crafted out of the cougar are even a little extra (not that I'd want them removed). I'd be entirely content with the cougar's hide being not being used for anything.

[Serenity]

I don't want to see it in the world to hunt it. I want it to be immersive. It would be completely fine if it were only be visible in the distance. Maybe run away and despawn out of sight. Though that's difficult to implement to work properly in all locations.

The problem with the HUD elements is also about immersion. Instead it would be better to have cougar paw prints, kills or sounds in the world. To be in line with the other animals and the general way the game works. The rest of the game requires you pay attention, so why is the cougar suddenly different in that regard? The moose is a great example of different animal mechanics that blend seamlessly into the existing game. The cougar however feels tacked on.

Edited July 17 by Serenity

[Raphael van Lierop]

Like I said, I didn't post it to elicit a bunch of "but if you had only done it this way..." posts. We've heard a LOT of feedback on how folks think we could have done it differently. I only provided some background so that people could understand the original reasoning better. And the original post was to debunk a bunch of misinformation that was making the rounds in corners of our community -- my goal was to inform so people here would know better.

[ManicManiac]

[[[ Reminder ]]]

As has been mentioned at least a couple of times previously... this tread isn't meant to elicit responses revolving around critiques, assessments, and personal opinions of or about the original implementation.  It has also been mentioned that this thread was simply meant to shed light on a misconception/faulty assumption, and to add context for what some of those folks were seeing from the "Dev Console."

Edited July 17 by ManicManiac

[Semple Fi]

On 7/14/2024 at 2:01 PM, Raphael van Lierop said:

a lot of what you experience in a game is "smoke and mirrors" based on how we manipulate game systems and content to create a certain experience for you. Sometimes when you look under the hood, some of the magic gets lost

 

😂

[Gwynren]

On 7/17/2024 at 12:59 PM, Raphael van Lierop said:

I also like the idea of putting something in the game that ISN'T for your use, your taking, but more a reminder that you are not the ultimate power in this world. You're just another fragile human that will eventually succumb...

Your post explaining the design intent is SO interesting! Thanks so much for sharing that. It's a great concept and I'm looking forward to murder kitty 2.0! (I entirely missed 1.0 I must admit.)

[upnorth]

On 7/17/2024 at 4:59 AM, Raphael van Lierop said:

We wanted to create a different experience than the other wildlife, and give the Cougar a different gameplay purpose. ...

Thank you for elaborating! I think it's very good that you dare to take risks and own the game design and not just try to please everyone at every turn. With that said I think the news of the cougar being added set a lot of expectations of a new predator with similar but different gameplay to the others. I think spotting animals in the world is one of the coolest things about it. Really makes you feel like you are out in the wilds as it's dangerous. Personally I was looking forward to almost do "bird watching" for cougars in any areas with a lot of cliffs, but I was also hoping that attacks could happen at any time if you explored too "aggressively" 😁

Anyway, that's just one players opinion and you have obviously got a tonne of feedback so far. I think we all really appreciate how receptive you are of it. It all comes from love of a great game and years of great experiences that we want to help make even more exciting in the future! Good luck with everything, looking forward to the revised cougar gameplay design ❤️

[upnorth]

On 7/17/2024 at 11:34 AM, Serenity said:

I don't want to see it in the world to hunt it. I want it to be immersive. It would be completely fine if it were only be visible in the distance. Maybe run away and despawn out of sight. Though that's difficult to implement to work properly in all locations.

The problem with the HUD elements is also about immersion. Instead it would be better to have cougar paw prints, kills or sounds in the world. To be in line with the other animals and the general way the game works. The rest of the game requires you pay attention, so why is the cougar suddenly different in that regard? The moose is a great example of different animal mechanics that blend seamlessly into the existing game. The cougar however feels tacked on.

I didn't expect to hunt it either. But being able to occasionally spot them in the distance IS "seeing it in the world" to me. Like, an enemy you would never be able to surprise unless it got wounded or something. It surprises you 😅

[RaukGorth]

The most feed I've heard from others and I feel the same way, was about the UI notifications feeling 'cheap'.

I understand your desire to give the player plenty of warning, but the text on screen feels a bit too much. We wanted only symptoms visible in the game world.

[xanna]

I don't like them either, but the explanation that Raph gave made a lot of sense. The cougar threat is so severe and sudden that the player needs to be inarguably aware of it, otherwise it would be super unfair. And so I assume they considered doing it a different way with only in-world signs, but it was too easy to miss or something. I don't think it's because they don't agree that in-world is better than HUD alerts for immersion.

[hozz1235]

On 7/16/2024 at 8:59 PM, Raphael van Lierop said:

 The idea of territory control and using it as a way to move the player around the world was always part of the plan. 

The Cougar was intended to be something to be feared and avoided, not something to be actively sought out.

For me, I wanted  to encounter it.  Not only to experience what you had put a good amount of time and effort into, but also wanted the wrap and knife!  If the cougar was meant as something to be avoided and to encourage players to "move on", I feel you shouldn't have made it rewarding to seek out and kill.  What about a "zone" storm that gets incrementally worse, encouraging the player to move out of the zone?  Or some kind of plague?  Just throwing out other ideas.

[Raphael van Lierop]

2 hours ago, hozz1235 said:

For me, I wanted  to encounter it.  Not only to experience what you had put a good amount of time and effort into, but also wanted the wrap and knife!  If the cougar was meant as something to be avoided and to encourage players to "move on", I feel you shouldn't have made it rewarding to seek out and kill.  What about a "zone" storm that gets incrementally worse, encouraging the player to move out of the zone?  Or some kind of plague?  Just throwing out other ideas.

Yup, this is fair. We definitely talked about whether we should make it possible to harvest anything from the Cougar, and it seemed illogical to prevent it and also something we'd have to 'answer for' from players. But indeed, it's hard to find a good balance between creating something truly dangerous to try to incite certain player behaviours to escape it, and something dangerous that feels like it would be a compelling challenge to overcome. 

The "zone storm" idea is an interesting reference, because while other people said they thought our 1.0 Cougar implementation was like Cabin Fever, I always thought about it more like a Blizzard that could kill you instantly if you didn't get out of its way. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Raphael van Lierop]

On 7/20/2024 at 10:57 AM, xanna said:

I don't like them either, but the explanation that Raph gave made a lot of sense. The cougar threat is so severe and sudden that the player needs to be inarguably aware of it, otherwise it would be super unfair. And so I assume they considered doing it a different way with only in-world signs, but it was too easy to miss or something. I don't think it's because they don't agree that in-world is better than HUD alerts for immersion.

This is exactly correct. It's 100% about making sure that the feedback can't be missed, because missing it is so consequential.

[ElSuperGecko]

18 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Yup, this is fair. We definitely talked about whether we should make it possible to harvest anything from the Cougar, and it seemed illogical to prevent it and also something we'd have to 'answer for' from players. But indeed, it's hard to find a good balance between creating something truly dangerous to try to incite certain player behaviours to escape it, and something dangerous that feels like it would be a compelling challenge to overcome. 

I think this is probably why there's such a lot of discussion around the cougar.  It's been such a long-awaited and anticipated inclusion to the game that players want to see it, encounter it and experience the hard work Hinterland have put into implementing it.  And there's a bit of a disconnect there when it's a mechanic that's intended to be avoided at all costs because of the threat it brings.  Players want to see it, hear it, encounter it... but by it's very nature that's not something you should be trying to do.

18 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

The "zone storm" idea is an interesting reference, because while other people said they thought our 1.0 Cougar implementation was like Cabin Fever, I always thought about it more like a Blizzard that could kill you instantly if you didn't get out of its way. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Personally speaking, I'm not overly bothered about hunting it, but I enjoyed feeling it's presence in the game.  Stumbling across the Den by accident was an incredible experience.  I went from wanting to explore the region to wanting to get out of the region as quickly as possible in an instant.  I'm guessing unexpectedly discovering the Den in a region where you really want or need to do something (fix a transmitter, forge some items etc) is going to cause some difficult gameplay decisions.

[Raphael van Lierop]

 

Quote

(I'm not explaining all this so other people will offer "but if you had done it this way then..."; simply providing some insight into our original design intent.)

Ok, I broke my own rule and responded to some comments here, but I won't respond to any more! 

The new implementation will be quite different so all this discussion will be fairly moot. I think we can probably lock this thread now.