Temporarily Removing the Cougar

[ManicManiac]

@Veskaida
Yes, I was referring to the behavior/mechanic...

Spoiler

and not the immortality 

 
Perhaps I was mistaken...  However, I'd always thought (and if the Wiki is to be believed) it was the "Old Bear" in Wintermute (also referred to as a Demon Bear by Jeremiah when he was recounting the old story about the three hunters).  So I always assumed that this was the same bear featured in The Hunted Challenges... I guess I also figured that the names Demon Bear & Old Bear were more-or-less interchangeable.

In any case, not trying to be pedantic about it...  

Edited June 30 by ManicManiac

[ManicManiac]

1 hour ago, Veskaida said:

I've played "The Hunted: Part One" as a 'lived-in' challenge (for hundreds of days), and it's fun and interesting (would recommend it), but the spawning behavior for the Old Bear is predictable once you've dealt with it for 100+ days.

Yes!  This is one of those personal challenges that I've been curious about for a long while, but never really got around to doing myself.  Well done!

Edited July 1 by ManicManiac

[Appcet]

Any update ?

[Veskaida]

On 7/1/2024 at 3:23 AM, Even Dark said:

The difference is I love the game and hey I spent 6200+ hours omg more then you?...... but that doesn't matter it is not importent if we are talking about the full version. we are talking here then about the full version right?

I'm not a true fanboy (love it is is the best!) and I see it objectively, with criticism instead of saying everything is good.  

I disagree. In my reading of that user's post, I think that they were framing their personal experiences with TLD and their support for Hinterlands' decision; I do not not see this post as trying to be aggressive or authoritative like you're suggesting.

For Example: I purchased TLD in 2014 on Steam and have played most major releases since. I enjoyed TLD then and now, and I liked the implementation of the Cougar in v2.29, but I can see why there could be criticisms or room for improvement. I would have been happy if the Cougar remained in TLD unchanged, but I also support Hinterlands removing it: I interpret that as them valuing player feedback and caring for the community. (same as Wintermute Redux, Animal Harvesting "Incision Cut" changes, or even making a Community Poll with Cougar as an option prior to TFTFT, etc).

On 7/1/2024 at 3:23 AM, Even Dark said:

Question: is this the new interloper? spoiler i love it i need that its great i love ptarmigans cocking now, i like the pain and and and and and but.... later on ^^

This is a thread about "Temporarily Disabling the Cougar", if you have want to discuss Misery Mode or Ptarmigans, that is probably best for another thread.

3 hours ago, Appcet said:

Any update ?

No. I don't play TLD on console/switch (so I can't test if the Cougar removal patch is live there), but I think based on this announcement that v2.30 (or it's console equivalent (Cougar removal patch)) will arrive some time this week.

"I can't say for sure how long that will take, but it'll likely be more than a couple of weeks. We'll deliver a re-envisioned Cougar before we deliver Part Six of TALES."

This announcement was 9 days ago, so it'll likely be at least another few weeks for a Cougar rework/redesign and release. I believe "Part 6 of TALES" is planned for release in 2024, so some time before that patch.

Edited July 3 by Veskaida

[nihilityrue]

I was amused with my interaction with the cougar before it was pulled. I wanted that cougar hide and it made me take a completely different approach to get it. Who is really hunting who sort of thing. I can see how the encounter might be rough on interloper...but like...? You get what you deserve on those levels. Overall I appreciated that it was different. I have plenty of predators to stumble into as is....but I am curious to see how the cougar makes a come back. And I am extra hype for some base customization. Thanks for making such a fun game. It has held my attention for years and over multiple runs. Love it. 

[RossBondReturns]

While I understand the choice made by Hinterland to remove and fine tune the Cougar, I am sad that I never got to face it during it's initial introduction and IMHO believe that many who never got a chance to interact with the original version of the Cougar got burned as well.

Not everyone runs out and starts a new sandbox to experience and test new things like waiting in one region for a Cougar.

Some want to continue a long term run and perhaps eventually run into a Cougar in regular play...over time.

Those of us that chose to do that will only ever experience the revamped Cougar.

Once again while I agree with the decision to remove the Cougar I was frankly stunned and a bit disappointed by how quickly it was removed.  

[ManicManiac]

I will remind folks again...
All sides of the discussion are welcome, as long it stays civil and respectful.


[[[ some rude/insulting/disrespectful/condescending remarks have been removed ]]]

[Rick1234]

First post here, and let me start this way. I am grateful to Hinterland for their continued support and development of the Long Dark over 10 years. This is essentially the only game I play (I am not a video gamer) and it captures on a computer the love I have for the mountains, the outdoors and nature. It is a masterful representation of the Great Northern Forest and all the beauty that Canada has to offer.

I registered here over a week ago to post a constructive disagreement about the way Cougar has been implemented. In the meantime, Cougar has been removed and I would like to express how I would add it to the game.

1) We don't need a wolf replica, some kind of superwolf. Agree with the developers here. Wolfs patrol a zone, Cougar should "appear", or ambush the player. However, the cougar cannot magically teleport onto you, it should exist in-game before the struggle. Personally, I would teleport the cougar to the closest place where you cannot see it (like behind the nearest tree or large rock) and then let it attack you. This will add to the excitement of navigating a forest, and will give the player a chance of defending himself. Once the cougar has appeared in a region (no more than one per region), it should stay there if the player fails to kill it. However, its behaviour should be to escape if the player is too far away (like a rabbit), and to attack only if the player is very close, and the Cougar should be able to detect the player from far away (unless out of its line of sight). This will produce a new, interesting, hunting mechanic.

2) Feedback on the cougar's presence should only be in-game: a dead rabbit, some footprints, a roar with louder sounds when the animal approaches, etc. One of the strengths of the game is its immersive nature, please do not break that with out-of-game messages like "Warning, Cougar approaching". Out-of-game messages should be limited to how the player feels (afflictions etc..).

3) Personally, I think the one-shot-one-kill mechanic is too "gamey". If a player manages to hit the cougar, the animal might die later on, forcing the player to search for the dead carcass.

Edited July 5 by Rick1234

[xanna]

@Rick1234 Welcome to the forum 😊

[Mroz4k]

I have a question for others within the community - would you consider the cougar mechanics as-is to be fine, IF there was another way to run into it that would, in fact, allow you to "hunt the hunter" in a sense that it would allow the player to spot cougar BEFORE it instantly teleported onto the player? Mostly asking those who arent already satisfied with how cougar worked in the first place, but everyone´s opinion is valuable.

Basically:
mechanic A: Stay in region for X days, cougar appears, you leave outside, you get teleported on and mauled and can kill it with revenge-shot (assuming UI issues would be handled to be less intrusive). (in RPG terms: "raid by a boss on your base" - defense strategy)
mechanic B: Perform some action somewhere that is hard to do, in a remote area without close indoor places to hide or high ledges animals cant get onto - this "challenges" the cougar who then attacks the player in SOME way that is not instant teleport on top of the player. If failed - same struggle, chance for revenge shot, etc. Biggest issue here is, it would be in remote location where recovery would be harder. (in RPG terms: "you challenge the boss on his own territory" - offense strategy) 

__________
I believe most people dislike Cougar because they want to hunt it for the rewards, but want a chance to avoid the struggle, and with the way it was implemented, that struggle was unavoidable.

20 hours ago, RossBondReturns said:

While I understand the choice made by Hinterland to remove and fine tune the Cougar, I am sad that I never got to face it during it's initial introduction and IMHO believe that many who never got a chance to interact with the original version of the Cougar got burned as well.

I feel ya. I missed out on it, too. But that is no different than those who missed out on a chance to support via Kickstarter, or those who wish to know what the game was like when Mystery lake was the only place, or see original Forestry lookout, and so many other things that were at some point in the game and arent anymore. Perhaps, in future, a mod will exist that will make it possible. 

[ElSuperGecko]

I'm hoping to hear more on the cougar again soon.

There was a TON of stuff I really enjoyed about the cougar - the music when the cougar is around and near the den is phenomenal, as are the other related sound cues (hissing, screeches etc).  It combined to create a very eerie, unsettling atmosphere where you knew something bad was about to go down, and I loved it.

The model for the cougar looked really good, and it's attack animation was amazing as well.

It's going to be a superb addition to the game if Hinterland can figure out an implementation that they're happy with and does what they want it to do while taking into account the feedback from the players.  It's a balancing act I guess, and I can totally understand the developers erring on the side of caution to start with.

Personally speaking, there were only two things off putting for me - the first being the UI prompts and notifications.  Your own mileage may vary of course, but I found the "cougar incoming" warnings and "cougar here" prompts to be too immersion breaking in a game that is all about immersion, and it made it a little too much like an affliction rather than an animal.  How does the survivor know this information?  I'd much rather have to deduce how close the cat is and angry it's getting via environmental cues and in-game evidence.  Like I said above, the sound cues and music are PHENOMENAL.  Incredibly atmospheric.  I just hope we can get some visual cues to match.

My other main area of contention is the "Cougar Clock".  As I understand it - and this was taken from @Zaknafein's overview video - the cougar arrives after your survivor stays in the same region for a set number of days, with some of the timescales being quite big (30/50+ consecutive days etc).  If I'm wrong in this, fair enough, I'm sure there's a lot I have to learn and discover!  But with these timescales, it seems to me that encountering the cougar would be an event players would need to "force" to happen, rather than something they would run into naturally and organically through the process of normal play.

Imagine for example a new player who has just downloaded the game and DLC, but who doesn't follow the news updates or read the forum.  They start a run on Pilgrim or Voyager or even Stalker.  With the amount of time they would need to remain in a single region for the cougar to start encroaching, the chances of running into it are very, very low.  They may never even encounter it at all!

My own cougar experiences while it was live didn't match this, either.  When I resumed my game following the update, I was immediately met with the "cougar arriving in 5 days message", despite only being there for 2-3 days maximum before the Tales update became live.  Before the cougar was withdrawn, I had the "cougar arriving" message showing in 3 adjacent regions and the "cougar present" message in one.  It had basically taken over the Far Territory!  I'd mapped the den in one of these regions, so I don't know if this was a deliberate/intentional mechanic for when the player is near the cougar's den or an unintentional behaviour.  It was surprising, unexpected and it did at least let me experience it though!

On the back of this, I don't know if this would be feasible or even wanted by the developers or the rest of the community, but I wonder if "tying" the cougar to the region containing the den it's and adjacent regions might be worth considering?  It is described as being fiercely territorial, so maybe having it active only in certain areas may be a possible alternative to the timed triggers?  If the den is spawned in a random location every playthrough, then you would find yourself with a risk/reward mechanic when visiting or traversing through these regions and a different experience every game, and the possibility of never encountering it or having to "force" the encounter to happen would mostly be gone.

I'm aware this isn't what Hinterland originally intended and that they're not designing the game by committee - I just thought I'd share my thoughts based on my own experiences.

[Veskaida]

3 hours ago, ElSuperGecko said:

the music when the cougar is around and near the den is phenomenal, as are the other related sound cues (hissing, screeches etc).

I agree, this was one of the strengths of the Cougar as-implemented and I hope they keep this element, or something like it. Very ominous walking around a region and you hear that music faintly begin to play in the background, growing louder and louder.

Have seen others comment before that "The Long Dark is a survival game with horror elements" and while I don't know if I'd go quite that far, it certainly has it's ominous and dire moments. This Cougar Den was definitely one of them, hope more players can experience this!

3 hours ago, ElSuperGecko said:

The model for the cougar looked really good, and it's attack animation was amazing as well.

Agree as well, the Cougar's model is excellent and I loved the struggle animation. IMO best animation in the game.

[ElSuperGecko]

Following on from the above, I saw Raphael's comment re. the UI feedback in another topic:

13 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

This is exactly correct. It's 100% about making sure that the feedback can't be missed, because missing it is so consequential.

With that in mind, I wondered if a "warning" attack animation might work?  The survivor gets pounced out of nowhere and knocked over - just like they did when the cougar attacked on launch - but instead of a struggle, the cougar just instantly races off again as your survivor scrambles back to their feet?  Your final warning, if you will - any attacks after this will be the real deal.  Typical cat behaviour - playing with it's food!  🤣

It would be almost impossible to miss something like that, but it'd keep the immersion and give players a chance to both a: escape and b: see that beautiful cougar model while making it very clear that there'll be no further chances...

And/or if you try to sleep in a region when the cougar is encroaching, an insomnia-like "Something Disturbed Your Rest" message, followed by the cougar's audio cues?

I admit that I missed the audible feedback myself when I was exploring Sundered Pass, so I totally understand the intent.  I didn't notice the change in the background music until I accidentally mapped the Cougar Den.  But I still think I'd prefer to be reliant on ambient in-game information (and paying attention to my surroundings) if at all possible.  Once the realisation hit that I had been that close to the Cougar's territory... the sense of shock and dread was incredible, and I think that kind of thing is heightened when you encounter it naturally and organically during the course of regular gameplay.

[Appcet]

any new news 

[Pyroxene]

I appreciate Raphael for listening to the other players, but I never even got time to play with the cougar in the game. I am a bit disappointed. I just wanted to experience the cougar at least once.

[Leeanda]

1 hour ago, Pyroxene said:

I appreciate Raphael for listening to the other players, but I never even got time to play with the cougar in the game. I am a bit disappointed. I just wanted to experience the cougar at least once.

You'll have plenty of time when it's bought back...  Though you may wish you hadn't😊

[Raphael van Lierop]

An update: The team is still working on the Reworked Cougar. Getting it feeling right and more along the lines of what the community asked for without compromising our gameplay intent is a huge task. 

When we're finished with it and have a better idea of when we'll ship it, we'll post an update for the community across our various channels (here and elsewhere).

[ElSuperGecko]

Thank you for the update - can't wait to find out more!

[thekillergreece]

On 9/11/2024 at 3:28 AM, Raphael van Lierop said:

An update: The team is still working on the Reworked Cougar. Getting it feeling right and more along the lines of what the community asked for without compromising our gameplay intent is a huge task. 

When we're finished with it and have a better idea of when we'll ship it, we'll post an update for the community across our various channels (here and elsewhere).

Looking forward to it.

[Pyroxene]

On 9/6/2024 at 10:53 AM, Leeanda said:

You'll have plenty of time when it's bought back...  Though you may wish you hadn't😊

Can the cougar be turned off if it causes too much stress and anxiety?

[Leeanda]

23 minutes ago, Pyroxene said:

Can the cougar be turned off if it causes too much stress and anxiety?

I didn't mean to worry you that much...

But yes it's in the custom settings.. but only at the start of the run though.or if it's a one off  like it was last time ..for those who already had a run going..

If you're that worried maybe start a side run to test it first.

Edited September 12 by Leeanda

[stratvox]

On 9/10/2024 at 8:28 PM, Raphael van Lierop said:

An update: The team is still working on the Reworked Cougar. Getting it feeling right and more along the lines of what the community asked for without compromising our gameplay intent is a huge task. 

When we're finished with it and have a better idea of when we'll ship it, we'll post an update for the community across our various channels (here and elsewhere).

I look forward to it. Work commitments kept me from being able to experience the Cougar in any way during the short time it was available, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing it reappear; speaking for myself, I've thought this game has needed a mountain lion for many many years.

I can certainly understand the difficulty; ambush predators (esp. evolutionarily successful ones  ) are going to be hard to successfully place in a video game, given that their whole point is not permitting their prey a chance to defend themselves. As I understand it their predation success rate is at least 50%, which in game terms would mean that half the time you encounter one it'd just be you're walking along and then boom, you're dead, with the sound of the mountain lion's roar echoing in your ears. Not so great from a gameplay perspective....

I'm sure you folks are going to knock it out of the park when it's ready. 

[Raphael van Lierop]

On 9/12/2024 at 5:56 AM, stratvox said:

I look forward to it. Work commitments kept me from being able to experience the Cougar in any way during the short time it was available, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing it reappear; speaking for myself, I've thought this game has needed a mountain lion for many many years.

I can certainly understand the difficulty; ambush predators (esp. evolutionarily successful ones  ) are going to be hard to successfully place in a video game, given that their whole point is not permitting their prey a chance to defend themselves. As I understand it their predation success rate is at least 50%, which in game terms would mean that half the time you encounter one it'd just be you're walking along and then boom, you're dead, with the sound of the mountain lion's roar echoing in your ears. Not so great from a gameplay perspective....

I'm sure you folks are going to knock it out of the park when it's ready. 

Thank you for the ongoing vote of confidence, @stratvox. Certainly the team feels the pressure of the first iteration not quite landing the way we had hoped, and we're determined to come back with something that people will be excited about.