April Dev Diary

[Kayosiv]

Thank you so much Hinterland. I have been loving the memento caches as a puzzle and narrative element in my custom games, and I just wanted more of that. I've rarely been out during an aurora at night because it is so dangerous, but am looking forward to the adventure and peril to try and complete the signal void challenges.

The fact that you listened to player feedback and took swift action means a lot.

[SuperStriker16]

I was worried we would have nothing to do in the late game. I don’t really care about the loot, it’s just something to do in the late game when there really is not much to do. It adds some adventure back in your game after it all fades away. 

[Glacia]

2 hours ago, Sherri said:

This is 100% the right decision & the reasoning behind why it was not in interloper originally was very enlightening & informative. I don't think Hinterland was wrong at all to be so cautious regarding preserving the difficulty of interloper and not wanting to add something so hard with little gain.

This!

There are situations where both parts of the topic are right, and do not contradict each other. Hinterland have a valid point about the risk-gain scenario of the tale, but players do not care if the reward isn't worth, it's just about the experience. Im very happy with HTL quick decision.

10 minutes ago, SuperStriker16 said:

I hope there will be more justice for interloper players and stand with Glacia on the many improvements we can make.

Closing the gap between Interloper and other settings was an idea suggested to fix certain problems of excluded mechanics or items, and making the balance easier for upcoming patches. With the addition of the tale, prepper caches and every new feature to Interloper, im not sure if anything it's needed.

I mean, indeed certain features could be very cool to add, but i think it's not necessary. Im pretty sure that HTL it's gonna handle well Interloper balance around the year, this first change it's a good direction for the game.

[Sherri]

3 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Terms like "sucker punched" and "'being ignored" and other things that were said by Loper players during their lobby to pressure the devs into adding this tale to Loper were unnecessary and completely disrespectful of the devs who have already in the past responded several times to complaints that were principally made by Loper players.

I agree. There's no need to be hyperbolic and accuse maliciousness when there obviously isn't any.

At the same time.... survival games, by their nature get easier with experience. So over time players increase difficulty. So your interloper players I would bet are the longest-term, players. It takes time & dedication. I don't think it's unreasonable to give that difficulty the attention it's players have earned & not accidentally think of it like some fringe game mode. 😊

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Sherri

[Kranium]

I feel the criticism was completely valid, and the result speaks volumes. Things were OK here. Saying one was blindsided or ignored was perfectly accurate, at that time. Now here were are. All good. 👍

Edited April 15, 2023 by Kranium

[Leeanda]

5 minutes ago, Kranium said:

I'm sorry, but that's exactly what you are doing. And your previous post is actually condescending. I like you, you're a good person, but you convey the same attitude as you're complaining about, just from the opposite direction. It causes everyone to dig in. Relax! ☺️

For which I apologised for...  I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong and I never intend to offend anyone, especially personally.  

I grew up surrounded by bullies and it's left its mark so maybe I see more into  these comments than I should  and I push too hard for people to be nice but is that such a bad thing. .  

I'll shut up now...

[Kranium]

@Leeanda I deleted that post well before you posted yours, after reading further posts. It's all good.

 

I may be the first Interloper to get the badge, unless someone else also managed to hack an existing Interloper run, too 😁 Although I can't call it "pure" Interloper, since I've had non-Interloper items spawning in the bunkers now. (I've only grabbed the 1 pair of climbing socks I've found, still debating on if the technical balaclava counts)

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Kranium

[ToAsT]

6 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

That's rather unfair... I can think of several things that have been changed when complaints were made.  Rifles and revolvers were made toggle-able in Custom after some players complained that they couldn't use a rifle without getting "stalker" loot.  The birch tea toggle was added when Lopers complained that it was too OP.  Originally, after that change was made, ammo wouldn't spawn on Interloper, so it was fixed.  The behavior of T-Wolves has been changed a few times in response to player complaints about it.  Sprain healing mechanics were changed from the way they were when they were first introduced.  Even the mechanics have been adjusted a few times since I first started playing. 

HL have changed things... usually, but not always, by adding toggles in Custom... still, they are changes.  As devs go, HL is a cut above most in responding to player concerns.

This was also a very swift change compared to previous issues which were in the game for a long time. I recall a time when it was extremely easy to accidentally eat raw meat, but HL pushed back for a long time until eventually modifying the in-game behavior.

[Raphael van Lierop]

Hey all,

I don't usually post in here, but I'm not fond of some of the tone of the discussion and comments (including ones that are being reported). Let's keep it friendly.

In all this situation around "Signal Void" and Interloper (which we've already explained and I won't spend more time on that b/c I don't think it's our job to justify our dev decisions to folks), it's been quite disappointing to see how heated, and how "coded" the language has been at times.

From our perspective, people who choose to play the game using Interloper experience mode settings are just one of our many sub-groups of players. It might surprise you that there are many more that prefer to pay primarily Pilgrim (you just don't often hear from them, because they don't define themselves as "Pilgrims" or whatever). Or the other modes. I don't think it matters. Each of these modes is valid. The reason we included the Experience Modes was to give players some choices, from save to save, in how they might like to bias their experience along a spectrum (from exploration on one end, to survival on the other). There's no one right way to play, no Experience that is somehow superior to another. There's only how YOU choose to play, what is valuable to YOU, and what brings YOU enjoyment. They are all part of THE LONG DARK. You aren't somehow "better" or "more important" or "more valuable to Hinterland" because you play Interloper. 

The disappointing part -- for me -- isn't so much the anger and jibes that were pointed at us when we first launched Part Two of TALES -- sadly, we've become used to that. It was to hear stories from people who *don't* primarily play using Interloper settings, saying how they are being berated by "Interloper players" in the community, or while streaming, being told that if they don't play using Interloper they aren't really playing the game, they aren't good at it, they should try this or that strategy or they aren't doing it right, etc. etc. This is super disappointing to me personally, as it's 100% not what I wanted or foresaw for this Experience Mode. If I'd known it would create this occasionally toxic set of behaviours in our mostly generous and accepting community, I would never have added it to the game. That's never been what THE LONG DARK is about.

I also think it's easy to forget that we've always made THE LONG DARK with a player community, and we've always kept our ears open to player feedback, because this game is a living, breathing thing, and so is the community -- it's not the same as it was when we first launched, and it won't be the same when we eventually close the door on the game. That's part of our job as developers -- to help guide the game along its life-cycle. It's easy to look at a change like bringing Signal Void to Interloper and behave like it's some victory of the players *over* the developers, or whatever. To me, that's super counter-productive. We don't "cave" to pressure and we've never made the game that way. Personally, I don't care how many of you yell at me at Twitter, if I don't agree with a thing, I'm not going to change it. But as stubborn as I may be, I also know that we can't see everything, no matter how careful, not matter how thoughtful we are in our approach. And sometimes with new info, we realize we want to change a decision we had made. So we change it. That's a healthy thing for a game, pretty sure? Setting up a dynamic of "we triumphed against the developer!" (those exact words weren't written here, I'm just talking about a general sentiment that often exists in our industry, and in player communities across all games) is really damaging, in my opinion. 

I hope we can be a little more self-aware in our interactions with each other, make space for players of all kinds with all kinds of tastes and looking for various different kinds of experiences in THE LONG DARK. That's what makes the game special. That's what makes this community special. Let's not lose sight of that, ok?

- Raph

 

[Glacia]

34 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

sadly, we've become used to that. It was to hear stories from people who *don't* primarily play using Interloper settings, saying how they are being berated by "Interloper players" in the community, or while streaming, being told that if they don't play using Interloper they aren't really playing the game, they aren't good at it, they should try this or that strategy or they aren't doing it right, etc. etc

This is true but i need to say that they are a minority inside an already minority. In fact, most players don't even use the forums or other social media and just play, and most of players here don't blame anyone for playing or not playing in any game settings.

This situation would have happened anyways even if Interloper never exists, also isn't only for TLD but for most games with complex systems or min-max concepts. It's something that can't be avoided but again, they are an incredible minority and there is nothing that can be doed to prevent or finish that kind of situations, just ignoring them.

40 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

It's easy to look at a change like bringing Signal Void to Interloper and behave like it's some victory of the players *over* the developers, or whatever

Again something mostly misunderstood; adding signal void to interloper it's a victory for the entire game, devs and players included. Speaks incredible well about HTL and let us know that devs care about what the playerbase feels or want.

This is never something related to pressure, again a minority of comments can be very toxic or arrogant, but most players are happy with the change.

Finally, you know better than most that no matter what you do or offer in a game, there are always toxic, disrecpectful and hateful people ready to drop their poison in social media. There is nothing to do against them, but it's very advisable to fully ignore and avoid all kind of problems, something that kathy is doing well.

 

[Raphael van Lierop]

3 minutes ago, Glacia said:

This is true but i need to say that they are a minority inside an already minority. In fact, most players don't even use the forums or other social media and just play, and most of players here don't blame anyone for playing or not playing in any game settings.

This situation would have happened anyways even if Interloper never exists, also isn't only for TLD but for most games with complex systems or min-max concepts. It's something that can't be avoided but again, they are an incredible minority and there is nothing that can be doed to prevent or finish that kind of situations, just ignoring them.

Again something mostly misunderstood; adding signal void to interloper it's a victory for the entire game, devs and players included. Speaks incredible well about HTL and let us know that devs care about what the playerbase feels or want.

This is never something related to pressure, again a minority of comments can be very toxic or arrogant, but most players are happy with the change.

Finally, you know better than most that no matter what you do or offer in a game, there are always toxic, disrecpectful and hateful people ready to drop their poison in social media. There is nothing to do against them, but it's very advisable to fully ignore and avoid all kind of problems, something that kathy is doing well.

 

Hey @Glacia-- I know you mean well, but you don't have to "explain away" my comments or expectations about the community. Saying it's a minority or it's normal and just best be ignored, is not really the point. I know how online communities work, and what is typical, what is normal, etc. I'm saying, I expect better of my players. And that starts here.

[FriendlyFish]

@Raphael van Lierop

I think expecting better from the community is totally reasonable, but at the same time, I think it is indeed important to note that it's a minority. I'm a veteran player who's been around a long time on here, reddit, twitch, YouTube, etc, and it's pretty rare that I see anyone berating one another for how they play. It does happen and I'm not defending it or trying to say it's acceptable, but it is to be expected with any game that offers a "hardcore" difficulty. I was disappointed with the tale not being available on Loper, but at the same time I would never be hateful toward you, Hinterland, or any other player. I'm very grateful for you and all the devs and for the awesome "forever" game that you have created -- and I think the vast majority of us feel the same. 

Most of the community is very welcoming and supportive of one another, and I think you should be proud of that. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by FriendlyFish

[ajb1978]

1 hour ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

If I'd known it would create this occasionally toxic set of behaviours in our mostly generous and accepting community, I would never have added it to the game. That's never been what THE LONG DARK is about.

Full stop.

I understand there's assholes in the world. (I'm related to a few... Edit: And on occasion I can be one. Apologies if this is such an occasion.) But PLEASE do not let them ruin it for the rest of us.

Edited April 16, 2023 by ajb1978

[Gwynren]

1 hour ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

There's no one right way to play, no Experience that is somehow superior to another. There's only how YOU choose to play, what is valuable to YOU, and what brings YOU enjoyment. They are all part of THE LONG DARK. You aren't somehow "better" or "more important" or "more valuable to Hinterland" because you play Interloper.

 

Thank you so much for saying this out loud, it means a lot coming from the head of Hinterland. It can get a little frustrating and disappointing to see those sentiments you mentioned, to be made feel like I'm less of a "real" TLD player because I don't enjoy having Aggressive wildlife around. So, thank you for affirming that we are all equally valid in our enjoyment of the game, in ways meaningful and rewarding to us.

[RossBondReturns]

19 hours ago, peteloud said:

I'd rather have HTL spend their time completing the original TLD Episode 5 that we were promised and have paid for instead of spending their time developing a new product.

They are...half of the team is constantly working on Episode 5 while the other half works on Signal Void. They said this month and month ago when Signal Void was first announced.

[Kranium]

The cause isn't what you think it is.

 

Fun community & great game, though. And you should add the ability to make snowmen to the game. Just throwing that one out there.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Kranium

[ToAsT]

3 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Hey all,

I don't usually post in here, but I'm not fond of some of the tone of the discussion and comments (including ones that are being reported). Let's keep it friendly.

In all this situation around "Signal Void" and Interloper (which we've already explained and I won't spend more time on that b/c I don't think it's our job to justify our dev decisions to folks), it's been quite disappointing to see how heated, and how "coded" the language has been at times.

From our perspective, people who choose to play the game using Interloper experience mode settings are just one of our many sub-groups of players. It might surprise you that there are many more that prefer to pay primarily Pilgrim (you just don't often hear from them, because they don't define themselves as "Pilgrims" or whatever). Or the other modes. I don't think it matters. Each of these modes is valid. The reason we included the Experience Modes was to give players some choices, from save to save, in how they might like to bias their experience along a spectrum (from exploration on one end, to survival on the other). There's no one right way to play, no Experience that is somehow superior to another. There's only how YOU choose to play, what is valuable to YOU, and what brings YOU enjoyment. They are all part of THE LONG DARK. You aren't somehow "better" or "more important" or "more valuable to Hinterland" because you play Interloper. 

The disappointing part -- for me -- isn't so much the anger and jibes that were pointed at us when we first launched Part Two of TALES -- sadly, we've become used to that. It was to hear stories from people who *don't* primarily play using Interloper settings, saying how they are being berated by "Interloper players" in the community, or while streaming, being told that if they don't play using Interloper they aren't really playing the game, they aren't good at it, they should try this or that strategy or they aren't doing it right, etc. etc. This is super disappointing to me personally, as it's 100% not what I wanted or foresaw for this Experience Mode. If I'd known it would create this occasionally toxic set of behaviours in our mostly generous and accepting community, I would never have added it to the game. That's never been what THE LONG DARK is about.

I also think it's easy to forget that we've always made THE LONG DARK with a player community, and we've always kept our ears open to player feedback, because this game is a living, breathing thing, and so is the community -- it's not the same as it was when we first launched, and it won't be the same when we eventually close the door on the game. That's part of our job as developers -- to help guide the game along its life-cycle. It's easy to look at a change like bringing Signal Void to Interloper and behave like it's some victory of the players *over* the developers, or whatever. To me, that's super counter-productive. We don't "cave" to pressure and we've never made the game that way. Personally, I don't care how many of you yell at me at Twitter, if I don't agree with a thing, I'm not going to change it. But as stubborn as I may be, I also know that we can't see everything, no matter how careful, not matter how thoughtful we are in our approach. And sometimes with new info, we realize we want to change a decision we had made. So we change it. That's a healthy thing for a game, pretty sure? Setting up a dynamic of "we triumphed against the developer!" (those exact words weren't written here, I'm just talking about a general sentiment that often exists in our industry, and in player communities across all games) is really damaging, in my opinion. 

I hope we can be a little more self-aware in our interactions with each other, make space for players of all kinds with all kinds of tastes and looking for various different kinds of experiences in THE LONG DARK. That's what makes the game special. That's what makes this community special. Let's not lose sight of that, ok?

- Raph

 

I acknowledge that plans can change over time and that certain players will always find fault in whatever decision Hinterland chooses to make with the game. That's unavoidable.

It seems to me like some of the anger / disappointment from Interloper players was that they weren't informed when the DLC was released that they wouldn't be able to play or interact with the various tales on that difficulty, or find the item variants, with their existing saves.

[UpUpAway95]

14 hours ago, Sherri said:

I agree. There's no need to be hyperbolic and accuse maliciousness when there obviously isn't any.

At the same time.... survival games, by their nature get easier with experience. So over time players increase difficulty. So your interloper players I would bet are the longest-term, players. It takes time & dedication. I don't think it's unreasonable to give that difficulty the attention it's players have earned & not accidentally think of it like some fringe game mode. 😊

 

You don't attract new players and new gamers if the game is SOLELY catered around the hardest difficulties.  Players who play at the hardest difficulties have to consider that less skilled players also play the game, and those players have a learning curse to get through.  Also, the ongoing sources of funds for the devs largely comes not from players who have played the game forever, but new players who buy the game.  Also, it is most likely that a large percentage of player who have played a single game for a long time will eventually burn out on it and move onto something different.

Pilgrim isn't a fringe mode either.  All too often, Lopers take the stand that they'll only play on Loper so alternatives like Custom don't exist for them.  The Tale was always available to all players who bought the DLC, just not necessarily in their preferred game mode... which has alway been the case with every other Challenge in the game.  Pilgrim players can't play The Hunted with a passive bear... and those challenges are every bit as much "game content" as the DLC Tale.

At this point, getting rid of the standard game modes really is the only way this becomes "fair" to all players at all levels of skill without hamstringing HL's imagination (i.e. causing them to not add particular types of content in the future just because it isn't ideally suited to all their standard difficulty levels).

No difficulty "earns" more consideration from a dev than another.  They all paid their money to play the game.

Edited April 16, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[Kranium]

8 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

No difficulty "earns" more consideration from a dev than another.  They all paid their money to play the game.

 

Correct, they should be equal, or players should be told before handing over their money if there will be exemptions or whatever (eg. like when old saves were going to be incompatible a few updates back).

I'd prefer that custom was all there was, if anything. (just leave the templates there).

 

I haven't been beachcombing yet. Been stuck in a blizzard > glimmer fog > blizzard loop for a few days in FA. Can't wait to see how that shakes out! My quest for 1000+ days on Interloper has been revitalized, thanks to this new content, I'm loving it thus far. My thanks to the team. 😄

Edited April 16, 2023 by Kranium
gramer

[Semple Fi]

[piddy3825]

3 hours ago, Kranium said:

I'd prefer that custom was all there was, if anything. 

I'd agree that would be an ideal solution.  only downside is that the dev team would have to completely revamp the merit badge and achievement mechanic so although that might be a somewhat simple solution, probably would be a ton of work.  Maybe if there is a TLD II we might see such an option in place from the get go.

[UpUpAway95]

16 minutes ago, piddy3825 said:

I'd agree that would be an ideal solution.  only downside is that the dev team would have to completely revamp the merit badge and achievement mechanic so although that might be a somewhat simple solution, probably would be a ton of work.  Maybe if there is a TLD II we might see such an option in place from the get go.

I think they might be able to get around revamping the achievement/feat system... just enable feats in custom.  Achievements have always been available in custom.  The old challenges should probably stay just the way they are (even though some of them exclude Pilgrim); and use their own difficulty settings.  Tales is already undergoing modifications, but perhaps the whole issue may have been avoided add the signal void Tale been set up a little bit separate from regular survival and with it's own difficulty level just as the old challenges were done.

If the templates stay as they are in custom, then the 4 standard difficulties are still there... just presented to the player as custom templates rather than their own stand-alone difficulties.  I think that alone would go a long way towards allowing players to become more flexible about how they choose to play and how they view different types of new content that might be added to the game in future... without preventing HL from being imaginative about various forms of content.

Some custom sliders should be changed regardless.  The BRA should be fixed to apply only to quality if loot (that is, changing BRA should have no effect on the amount of loot to be found).  That increasing BRA does current increase the amount of loot found is the single most cited reason I hear from Lopers as to why they don't want to do that.  Also, there are currently 3 sliders that do control amount of loot; and those could stay as is or, perhaps, be combined in one "amount of loot" slider.

I'd certainly accept whatever HL decides though... they know how their game is programmed.😀 

[Leeanda]

I think everyone knows how I feel abou things so I won't ramble on.. for a change😊.

even on Xbox there are ill tempered reviews ,which were mostly about tftft. They were written before the release of the dlc. This makes me sad. I hope we can all just try and put this behind us and look ahead with a happier healthier outlook . We all share a love for the game so I hope people will keep that in mind.. 

Thank you Ralph and all the team for your great work over the years . You should be very proud of yourselves.   

Looking forward to the rest of the dlcs and new content. 😊

[Semple Fi]

1 hour ago, Leeanda said:at work over the years . You should be very proud of yourselves.   

Looking forward to the rest of the dlcs and new content. 😊

agreed

[Leeanda]

Just now, Semple Fi said:

agreed

Love that dance😁