So, a serious bug with Cabin Fever

[ManicManiac]

1 hour ago, Dum_Gen said:

However, if the player have to stare in the dark for up to 8 hours before the character dies

Okay... but I'd ask folks to look at the context of what put the player in that situation.  If a player's choices put them in that tough spot... then I'd say those consequences are fair.

In the situation that was initially discussed: a player had to choose to head into a risky situation, knowing full well they might get stuck if the aurora doesn't last long enough.  The player also had to choose to spend the majority of the previous 6 days inside in order to even be at risk for cabin fever.  These were choices that would have to be made by the player, and I think the game is at it's best when players have to experience the consequences of their choices (both good and bad).

That's not the same thing as getting randomly suck in terrain... because there's no way for a player to know they will or even might get randomly stuck in terrain.  I think that's the difference between those two situations.

Edited June 4, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Dr. S.]

19 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Okay... but I'd ask folks to look at the context of what put the player in that situation.  If a player's choices put them in that tough spot... then I'd say those consequences are fair.

That's the whole point. There are zero game-play consequences for the survivor from disallowing pass time indoors while subject to cabin fever; the only consequences are to the human player. That's what makes it purely punitive. Passing time is strictly a convenience mechanism for the player; it has no effect on the survivor.

Why doesn't the game disallow speeding up time while cooking indoors while the survivor has cabin fever? That makes just as much sense as disallowing passing time.

[odizzido]

Yeah it's nifty when the lights come on. Plus the aurora is quite pretty. I knew about the radio but I certainly haven't seen everything. I still haven't crafted any ammo but it's on my list of things I want to try.

Anyways I really do like the aurora in TLD.

[ManicManiac]

1 hour ago, Dr. S. said:

That's what makes it purely punitive. Passing time is strictly a convenience mechanism for the player

Which is why I like it the way it is.  If the player is inconvenienced by cabin fever... perhaps the player will have a motivation to better avoid cabin fever in the first place, rely less on "passing time," or better yet... be more careful about situations dependent on an aurora where you could very likely get stuck.

1 hour ago, Dum_Gen said:

Wasting up to 8 real hours while not being able to do anything interesting is not fair. It looks like a bug and definitely not fun.

I think it is fair, because it was the player who chose to take those combined risks and those were the consequences. 
I don't think it is a bug, I think the mechanic is working as Hinterland intended... and if that's the case, it's definitively not a bug. 
It may not be fun... but I think it is fair.  If we take that combination of risk and we get stuck in a mine shaft with cabin fever... then like it or not, I say that's a fair consequence.  Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's unfair. 

At this point, I've said my peace... and even tried a few times to further explain it.  If folks don't agree that's okay, but this is my view on the topic. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Dr. S.]

8 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

I thought it could be replaced with reducing maximum period of sleep in-door to 1 hour, to reflect appearing mental problems like nightmares that interrupt survivor's sleep.

This way healing bonus will be reduced to minimum, sleeping will become a chore that will need many clicking. At the same time it will not make players to stare in the dark for hours during blizzards and in mines.

I think that’s still too punitive. Here’s what I would suggest. Once the survivor has CF the player can still sleep and pass time indoors, but

 

The survivor does not regain condition while sleeping inside. 
 

Over time, sleeping inside becomes less effective at restoring fatigue, requiring more and more sleep to fill the fatigue bar, until eventually it doesn’t restore fatigue at all. 

[legolegs]

17 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

Which is why I like it the way it is.  If the player is inconvenienced by cabin fever... perhaps the player will have a motivation to better avoid cabin fever in the first place, rely less on "passing time," or better yet... be more careful about situations dependent on an aurora where you could very likely get stuck.

I think it is fair, because it was the player who chose to take those combined risks and those were the consequences. 
I don't think it is a bug, I think the mechanic is working as Hinterland intended... and if that's the case, it's definitively not a bug. 
It may not be fun... but I think it is fair.  If we take that combination of risk and we get stuck in a mine shaft with cabin fever... then like it or not, I say that's a fair consequence.  Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's unfair. 

At this point, I've said my peace... and even tried a few times to further explain it.  If folks don't agree that's okay, but this is my view on the topic. 

It is a pleasure to see such positive attitude, I love it!  

Can you please further elaborate how personally you would overcome dark underground lockdown with cabin fever until next random aurora happens to finally occur? 😊

[ManicManiac]

@legolegs

Certainly, but first and foremost I have to point out that I would do everything as a player to avoid those problems to begin with.  Good planning before going into that specific situation I think is pretty straight forward, because it would be the same approach I used when dealing with the Aurora Hatch side mission we had in Episode 2.

The situation was much the same.  Here's what I did to prepare for that:

• Took a few day's worth of food with me.  *Specifically because of the risk of getting stuck.
• Set up an encampment near by the location. *This way I could step inside right when the Aurora starts so I would have the most time possible gather things up and get out as quickly as possible.
• Spend as much time outside as possible while waiting for an aurora (camping outside by a fire unless weather made that impossible). *This way it would be at least a few days before I even had to worry about Cabin Fever.  Better to mitigate beforehand.
• When the Aurora starts... don't mess around: Get in, Search, Collect, and Get out!  *This way you don't get trapped in the first place.

With the mine the process would be no different.

---

Now to directly answer your question:

What would I do to overcome the situation if I DID actually get stuck and needed to wait for the next Aurora to get out?

The answer is simple... I'd have to take accept the consequences of my actions and wait it out, or if I didn't want to do that I would just delete the save and start another run.  The difference for me is, I wouldn't complain about it or complain about Cabin Fever... because it was my choice to go down that hole and I was well aware of the risks.  It's as simple as that, and it's what I've been saying pretty consistently three times now.

But... for the sake of argument I'll walk it through a little farther:

• If the weather shifted and I got stuck... or if I was messing around and wasted most of the aurora trying to get the place (having failed to plan well ahead of time). 
  • Then I was would sleep/pass time as needed... (and before folks start jumping to conclusions... be patient, I'm getting to cabin fever in just a moment).
• If I failed to mitigate Cabin Fever and found myself afflicted by it.
  • Then that only means that I can't sleep or pass time for 24 hours (that's only 2 hours of real time - folks talking about sitting around for several hours seems like a self-inflicted wound to me ).  After the 24 hours (a.k.a. 2 real-time hours) my character can go back to sleeping and passing time again.  (so again, I think that's not that big a problem)
  • So... if I mitigated that risk properly before going in, then this isn't even much of a concern anyway.

The bottom line here is:  I would take responsibility for my actions as a player.  I would either find a way to live through it, let the character die, or quit and start a new run.  I wouldn't blame game mechanics, I wouldn't try to get Hinterland to change Cabin Fever, I wouldn't even gripe about it being unfair.

...because I think it's very fair for a player to have to deal with the consequences of their actions, even when it means the end of a long run.  It's happened to me many times in (what I would consider to be) objectively unfair circumstances, but still it's a game... I accepted it and I started a new run.

What "unfair circumstances?" some of folks might ask...

• Stuck in terrain (where I had no reason to suspect I would get stuck in terrain
• Walking on one of the "Instant Kill Spots" (so far I've found four in this game, each time the screen just instantly goes black and you get a message that says you fell to your death - despite the fact that you didn't fall and you can even dimly still see the place you were standing when it happened).

So, @legolegs since you seemed to be asking in earnest, thought I would try again to explain my view on this topic even further.  However, at this point it really is kind of going around in circles.  I've more or less said the same things each time more or less, and I'm not sure how many more ways I can try to explain...

I do hope this helps folks understand my point of view, and if folks don't agree with me... again, that's fine.  I'm not here to change anyone's personal opinion... more just to offer a point of view from a player who it would seem has a much different perspective on this game as a whole than many other players.   

Edited June 5, 2020 by ManicManiac

[odizzido]

I just wish to mention that complaining about it makes it known. The devs may not have even thought about the combination of events leading to this outcome. It's up to them if they want people to clean a house while leaving the game running after that. Personally as someone who has done some minor work on games I like to get this sort of feedback.

[Dr. S.]

18 minutes ago, odizzido said:

I just wish to mention that complaining about it makes it known. The devs may not have even thought about the combination of events leading to this outcome. It's up to them if they want people to clean a house while leaving the game running after that. Personally as someone who has done some minor work on games I like to get this sort of feedback.

And of course even better than complaining about it here is putting in a support ticket.

[ManicManiac]

52 minutes ago, Dr. S. said:

And of course even better than complaining about it here is putting in a support ticket.

Right on.
That way the Hinterland support team can consider whether or not it's working as intended, and if it's not what they intended then I'm sure they'd change it.

And to @odizzido's point, I think it's safe to say that feedback is always good to have.  It gives the Hinterland team a wealth of input, ideas, and perspectives from the community to consider.  That's precisely the reason I offer my view point if I have an opinion that differs from what others express.

On 12/21/2019 at 6:21 AM, ManicManiac said:

To be clear, there have been ideas here that I have very much supported... the other's I have just weighed in on with my perspective.  I think it's equally valuable for any developer to hear from both sides of an idea or opinion.  I seem to have a much different perspective on the game as a whole than a lot of people on the forum.  Which I suppose has caused some to assume I'm against changing anything... which is not the case.

In the end, I trust Hinterland to do what's best for their game... so if they see fit to change things, then great.  I've not objected to anything they've changed, even though I've not always agreed with the changes... I've accepted them and took the challenge of adapting my playstyle to overcome those decisions I initially didn't like.  I didn't fuss about it... I chose to embrace it, and as a result I've become much happier with the game.

I do feel (that at least to some degree) I understand and can appreciate the choices that Hinterland has made with their game... and I think a voice expressing that is not harmful, but provides a counter balance to all the voices who do what to change things based on their own personal preferences.

I don't condemn other's for their opinions, I just don't always agree with them because I try to understand and appreciate why Hinterland makes the choices they do.  To me player choice is more powerful at adjusting the experience than wanting to change the game itself.

 

 

[Dr. S.]

38 minutes ago, Dum_Gen said:

I thought that support tickets should be sent if the game is not working as intended - like going into textures, etc.

In this particular case game mechanics work as intended - got Cabin fever => can't pass time. However, people discussing whether this constraint is justifiable or needlessly makes player's experience miserable.

Reporting bugs and things that are broken are obviously important, but I think constructive suggestions about improving things are just as important, especially if they are, as you say, making a player's experiences miserable. (Even if they work as intended.) Submitting a ticket helps the devs track user requests. (I hope so, anyway! 😂)

I have a long list of things I think need to be improved in the interface (many mentioned here in various threads, some not) that I plan to submit at some point, and maybe as a thread here. For example, when crafting, the interface should never default to a tool that is not in the player's inventory. (It should show those tools, because that teaches the player about what is possible, but an unavailable tool should never be the default.) It drives me crazy when I play on interloper and the crafting interface defaults to a tool (like the hunting knife) that I can't possibly have.

[odizzido]

Yeah. There are a number of ways the UI could be improved. I kinda feel like they should have someone working for them with access to the UI and it's their job to play the game and edit the UI when they see stuff that could be better.

[dahemac]

On 6/3/2020 at 11:49 PM, catgamingclan said:

Yes, most electrical devices seem to come alive for a short period of time. Other small changes appear as well

I wish stoves came on during aurora.

[Guest jeffpeng]

On 6/4/2020 at 4:38 PM, Dum_Gen said:

I thought it could be replaced with reducing maximum period of sleep in-door to 1 hour, to reflect appearing mental problems like nightmares that interrupt survivor's sleep.

That's actually a good idea, especially since it would not only unnerve you, but seriously (!) hurt regeneration.

On 6/5/2020 at 1:38 AM, Dr. S. said:

The survivor does not regain condition while sleeping inside. 

While this sort-of amounts to the same thing while being a bit more punishing, but actually more "convenient".

As for convencience ..... that's a balance that's hard to strike. Too much quality-of-life and you stop being invested - since there is no work put into it. But too little .... and you feel you are being harassed by the game. Being stuck in a mine for 8 real time hours counts towards is definitely on the far "too little" part of spectrum.

[acada]

I think of different solution for this particular case. It is a elevator shaft going down. It means plenty of anchor points like steel beams. According the rope weight it can be 50-100m long. The shaft should not be so deep a rope not reaching the bottom of it. I know it would make the mine accessible all the time. But IMHO it should be done this way.

Seriously. Anchor points should be more "realistics"/"available" I dont know. For example you have a cliff with trees near the edge. According my climbimg experience I would trust my life to a 1m diameter healthy tree. I think even in -40°C the tree is strong to support character weight + his equip.

The second part is probably hell of game changer. So I would be comfy with anchor point only in the shaft.

[Patriot]

So I hvae cmoe up wtih a soitulon. A porpsoed sgugsetion for a new sikll. This ought to rselove this bug inadvertently.  

Saw a post recently so testing out this alternate form of typing. Y'all oughta be able to read it without an issue.

 

[ManicManiac]

16 hours ago, Patriot said:

This ought to rselove this bug inadvertently.  

 It's not a bug... but I've explained all that before.

[odizzido]

2 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

 It's not a bug... but I've explained all that before.

I agree it's not a bug, it's working exactly as designed. Unfortunately the design is garbage in the case here and should be redesigned.

[ManicManiac]

Opinions may vary
Some may not like it... but that's entirely subjective.

I don't think it's garbage...  I think it's possible that some folks just haven't leaned/figured out how easy it is to mitigate, and I imagine that can be frustrating.  Just because some don't like it, doesn't mean it's bad game design.

Edited August 20, 2020 by ManicManiac

[odizzido]

27 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Opinions may vary
Some may not like it... but that's entirely subjective.

I don't think it's garbage...  I think some folks just haven't leaned how easy it is to mitigate, and I imagine that can be frustrating.
Just because some don't like it, doesn't mean it's bad game design.

We will forever disagree, but that's fine because I can play with cabin fever disabled and you can keep using it. We're both happy that way.

[ManicManiac]

Fair enough
I feel the same way when topics like this come up.  I think if more folks appreciated the flexibility of the custom settings (that Hinterland kindly provided) a lot of opinions that seem to want to change the experience for all of us wouldn't need to lead to so many disagreements.

Even though we don't agree, I certainly respect your point of view. 
I just don't want other people's personal preferences to potentially lead to changes in a game I enjoy.  Which is why I (more often than not) weigh in with my perspective when I don't agree with the assertions others make.

As always I mean nothing personal toward anyone... but I will speak my mind, just like everyone else here.

Edited August 20, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Dan_]

19 hours ago, odizzido said:

I agree it's not a bug, it's working exactly as designed. Unfortunately the design is garbage in the case here and should be redesigned.

Agreed, clumsy mechanic in an otherwise very well balanced sandbox. The status quo of the cabin fever implications are pointless. You can as shown and explained in this thread, bypass them by harvesting clothing items and cancelling the operation before it is complete. If a new player is unaware of this, he/she might just toss that save aside or even let go of the game altogether, where's the fun in waiting IRL hours on end staring at a black screen? 

My suggestion for eliminating cabin fever altogether is simple: Give all indoor locations variable temps, make the rickety and poorly insulated cabins have worse thermal properties than a warm cave. This way you'd need a fire when it gets cold, regardless of being inside or outside, but you'd still get the fire duration bonus when outside and that might make camping more attractive, that and the fact that you would need to procure firewood and leave your comfy cabin every once in a while. A real reason to be outside, dont'ya think?

Winter's embrace has shown a preview of this by dropping the temps, I'd say take it further and make indoor locations not so OP. Scale the inside/outside temp delta with difficulty:

Pilgrim : stays at it is - Inside temps are fixed per building, buildings provide good warmth regardless of outside conditions.

Voyager : buildings get huge positive offsets. Compound this with the current best clothing set available and test the weather models to ensure you'll get a cold night every once in a blue moon, regardless of clothing.

Stalker gets medium sized offsets.

Loper gets little to non-offset, again depending on the building. The Farmhouse in PV should be warmer than Skeeter's basement and so on. They could make each building even more unique this way. The Hunting lodge has a six pot stove with a moose and workbench? Give it non-sealing windows and say it is badly insulated.

Custom : You choose.

[ManicManiac]

23 hours ago, Dan_ said:

My suggestion for eliminating cabin fever altogether is simple: Give all indoor locations variable temps, make the rickety and poorly insulated cabins have worse thermal properties than a warm cave. This way you'd need a fire when it gets cold, regardless of being inside or outside, but you'd still get the fire duration bonus when outside and that might make camping more attractive, that and the fact that you would need to procure firewood and leave your comfy cabin every once in a while.

I still think the better solution is: if folks don't like it... just turn it off with custom settings.

Edited August 21, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Gracia_WolfSlayer]

Eh... I 'get' why some people don't like it... Cabin fever is annoying, but I feel like it is supposed to be. It's an obstacle that makes survival hard and upheavals all your thoughtful planning.

I've personally never felt it was a bad game mechanic. It's just something to look out for. Like food poisoning on that can of 55% peaches that your 'pretty sure' would be ok, and then isn't. Or running from wolves and spraining your wrist as they're making their charge.

Good thing custom settings exist for ya'll ❤️

[Dan_]

3 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

I still think the better solution is: if folks don't like it... just turn it off with custom settings.

Not to be pedantic, but the same could be said to every single customizable parameter in the game. That doesn't lead to any productive conclusion or valid feedback when assessing features, qualities or quirks of the game, which I presume is the ethos behind the official forums, no?

If we go back to the OP, it is presenting a rare situation in which the game demands a non-practical amount of time to be spent IRL in front of a black screen. The only way to circumvent it is through an exploit. I'm pretty sure HL will want to take a look at these whenever they feel it is possible, given their packed dev. schedule.