Should crafting arrows be this difficult?

[tinyfenix]

I feel like either you’re lucky with this or not on survival.

Just around 100 days into my current run. No hammer found anywhere near any forge of course. First hammer I found was in the cannery in BI... where I was shocked to find no forge...

Strangely, crafting bullets has somehow become easier and faster than crafting simple arrows. 

Is it just me or does it seem really ridiculous that the only way to craft an arrow head is by smelting reclaimed metal in a forge? I mean you have access to quality tools, whetstones, work benches with vices, etc. You should be able to craft arrow heads out of stone or by shaving down an die sharpening fragments of metal too. 

I mean, at the worst you should at least be able to sharpen the ends of arrow shafts to make improvised arrows. 

Just wondering if anyone else has crafted a bow, has three dozen arrow shafts and feathers they’ve been lugging around for weeks (even months) thinking “Surely I’ll find a hammer to forge some arrows heads with soon”... 

And surely since you can make an improvised knife and hatchet (and even use them for free without crafting them at a work bench) there should be some kind of improvised hammer as well. 

Its also kind of funny that tool kits and even quality tool kits for some reason have no hammers in them and... basically have little to no use in the game at all. 

[odizzido]

Don’t the forged knife/hatchet require the hammer too?

 

I wouldn’t mind seeing some sort of weapon you don’t need the forge for, but it would still have to have some sort of significant disadvantage conpared to forge items while still being worth crafting. Might be hard to find that balance

[1galbatorix1]

Yeah, good old Power Creep. (Power creep is a situation in which features newly added to the game are much better/more effective that their older counterparts.) It is exactly what heppened here.

In last update Devs were like:

"Hey, there is new region now and you can craft tones of bullets here. And guess what? It's also much easier than crafting arrows we introduced few years ago. Ah, and we also added NEW recolored version of wolves that are stronger and even more annoying than the old ones. Ah and we also added NEW, recolored version of flare that is much better than the old one and designed SPECIFICALLY to counter those NEW recolored wolves."

I agree with you that it doesn't make any sense whatsover that bullets are way easier to craft than arrows. An easy fix would be to just allow players to craft arrowheads in the workbench from scrap metal, or to severely nerf the ammunition crafting, to keep things balanced. But I don't think this will ever be done. TLD's devs seem to be very oblivious about how updates and new features affect the game. Despite players' complains, with each update TLD is pushed more and more towards "zombie wolf simulator". With more and more tools at our disposal, surviving the cold, thirst and hunger is not even a challenge anymore, wolves however are only getting stronger. And because those mechanics are overshadowed by the wolves so much,  the game stops being climatic and starts looking like "trick the wolf AI" type of experience.  So yeah, seeing that, I highly doubt, that this arrow/bullets imbalance problem is ever going to be adressed.

Errant Pilgrim update is a total mess. I don't understand how in the world "let's make a flare, but it's better and it's blue, and you need it against timberwolves, because normal flare is not enough"  idea didn't get scrapped the very moment someone proposed it. You can clearly see that older patchnotes were designed carefully to not make the old gameplay elements redundant. For example: improvised axe and knife that were added with the forge, are significantly worse than man-made ones, to balance the fact that you can craft almost infinite supply of them.  If they were added now, they would probably be lighter, faster and more durable than normal tools. At some point in TLD's development the approach changed from "we are slowly adding new things, while keeping the old ones useful, in order to make the experience better and more climatic"  to "new features must be stronger than the old and wolves should be primary focus of the game". 

Every time i had a long break from TLD i was amazed how the game has improved during that time. Until now. So I am really worried about the direction this game is heading in. Hinterlands keeps talking about " improving the experience" but lately the updates themselves seem to contraddict that and push the game more into "zombie survival" and "new features are better" territory. New wolf behavior resembles me playing "ARK survival evolved", the game in which everything tries to kill you for no reason. And that's a really bad sign. 

I know I went a bit salty with this. And I realise that majority of forum users is going to disagree with me, but current state of the game is something that really bothers me. I am open to discussion tho.

Edited February 4, 2020 by 1galbatorix1

[jhickie]

100 days and no hammer? That's insane. I always find one in the first 10 days, and have crafted tools and weapons usually by day 20. How many locations have you discovered in these 100 days? Maybe you just haven't covered enough territory to find one. There are specific spots that are very likely to spawn a hammer. It can spawn in at least 4 places in ML that I can think of.. ML is one of the best places for hammer hunting. There's also some very specific places to look in CH, PV, and MT. They're out there, trust me.

Also, hammers don't spawn near forges on Loper.

[ManicManiac]

@tinyfenix

All things considered... I think handcrafting arrows requires far more time and craftsmanship than using "modern" tools to fabricate rounds.  I mean properly fletching an arrow shaft takes time and real skill.  Never mind hand carving strait and balanced shafts from the "saplings."

I think it makes sense that hand crafting arrows takes more time that making ammunition in this context.

[tinyfenix]

3 hours ago, jhickie said:

100 days and no hammer? That's insane. I always find one in the first 10 days, and have crafted tools and weapons usually by day 20. How many locations have you discovered in these 100 days? Maybe you just haven't covered enough territory to find one. There are specific spots that are very likely to spawn a hammer. It can spawn in at least 4 places in ML that I can think of.. ML is one of the best places for hammer hunting. There's also some very specific places to look in CH, PV, and MT. They're out there, trust me.

Also, hammers don't spawn near forges on Loper.

That’s the thing. I intentionally went into this playthrough completely blind after over a year of not playing. That way I wouldn’t have the locations memorized and it would prevent me from “cheating” or meta gaming. I was going for a realistic experience and just never could find a hammer. I’ve pretty much scoured the main areas and no such luck. 

I also know it’s a game and designed to be difficult but it really doesn’t make a lot of sense to have a forge... where someone lived... and no tools for miles to utilize it... did the person who lived there build a forge and then drive away, tossing their tools out the window randomly? It’s just kind of hilarious. Like there’s no hammers anywhere near any forges but you can only find one in a completely remote location miles from any building where a hammer would be used??

[tinyfenix]

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

@tinyfenix

All things considered... I think handcrafting arrows requires far more time and craftsmanship than using "modern" tools to fabricate rounds.  I mean properly fletching an arrow shaft takes time and real skill.  Never mind hand carving strait and balanced shafts from the "saplings."

I think it makes sense that hand crafting arrows takes more time that making ammunition in this context.

I mean, I can “repair” a can opener with simple tools and a piece of metal reclaimed from a prybar but I can’t make an arrow head from the blade of a broken knife? 

Im also not sure what you’re getting at. Crafting an arrow shaft is like the easiest possible thing you can do in the game. But making a sharp pointy object is literally the most challenging... lol Even making a premium bow is somehow easier than making an arrow head. 

I can literally go into the garden right now and find a rock I could shatter to make arrow heads out of. It’s a pretty simple concept. And I have no idea how to operate a machine that loads bullets into shells. 

This is also leaving out the fact that to make bullets, you need to harvest car batteries lol. 

You really think crafting a simple arrow head should require more skill than transforming car batteries into bullets????

[UpUpAway95]

12 minutes ago, tinyfenix said:

That’s the thing. I intentionally went into this playthrough completely blind after over a year of not playing. That way I wouldn’t have the locations memorized and it would prevent me from “cheating” or meta gaming. I was going for a realistic experience and just never could find a hammer. I’ve pretty much scoured the main areas and no such luck. 

I also know it’s a game and designed to be difficult but it really doesn’t make a lot of sense to have a forge... where someone lived... and no tools for miles to utilize it... did the person who lived there build a forge and then drive away, tossing their tools out the window randomly? It’s just kind of hilarious. Like there’s no hammers anywhere near any forges but you can only find one in a completely remote location miles from any building where a hammer would be used??

On the easier difficulties, it is not uncommon to find a hammer near at least one of the 3 forges in the game.  The harder difficulties are meant to be harder, so hammers do not spawn near the forge.  The head canon I use is that the forges were looted for forging tools long before Will/Astrid arrived on Great Bear.  People needed them to break apart furniture and we not using them for forging (but knew they would likely find one at a forge).

They don't want to make crafting arrows simple simply because it is the primary weapon for their hardest difficulty setting.  Loper relies on the need to forge the tools and the need to first find a hammer in another zone to make it difficult.  Making it easier would undermine that setting.  Since guns don't spawn in Loper (unless custom), the relative difficulty of crafting bullets is irrelevant to that setting.

Edited February 4, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[tinyfenix]

5 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

On the easier difficulties, it is not uncommon to find a hammer near at least one of the 3 forges in the game.  The harder difficulties are meant to be harder, so hammers do not spawn near the forge.  The head canon I use is that the forges were looted for forging tools long before Will/Astrid arrived on Great Bear.  People needed them to break apart furniture and we not using them for forging (but knew they would likely find one at a forge).

They don't want to make crafting arrows simple simply because it is the primary weapon for their hardest difficulty setting.  Loper relies on the need to forge the tools and the need to first find a hammer in another zone to make it difficult.  Making it easier would undermine that setting.

I get that it’s all for gameplay balance. 

Simple solution: have different kinds of arrows. Arrow heads made from rock or reclaimed materials would be inferior to arrow heads forged from metal. 

Or just make it like the improvised knife and hatchet. You can use them, but they will be worse and take longer. Crazy that i can find a quality workbench and quality tools all over the place but I can’t use anything except for a specific heavy hammer for forging... ridiculous that there’s no improvised hammer or regular hammer of any other type. 

[Snogan]

Have you not found any arrows or broken arrows at all in 100 days? Pleasant Valley Outbuildings target is practically guaranteed 1 arrow and 1 broken arrow, that's 2 (infinitely reusable) arrowheads, I'm on day 12 of a Stalker run and already found 5 arrowheads. Unless you're on loper you're honestly not going to need to forge any arrowheads as long as you're not wasting arrows and making an effort to find them after you shoot, you'll always have arrows, and birch saplings are usually plentiful as you said you have dozens of arrow shafts.

[ManicManiac]

1 hour ago, tinyfenix said:

Im also not sure what you’re getting at.

I'm not sure what you're getting at either.  
So let's move on.

[Addendum]
As I think about it more, I'll try to explain a little further:
I suppose at some point, I guess a video game just has to "video game"...  As players we can either accept the world we've been given or we can object to it (or certain aspects).  I tend to be in the group who appreciates the world that has been crafted here, and I don't much try to scrutinize the creative choices that were most likely made for gameplay reasons.

Whatever the case, I have no interest in arguing rationalizations of game mechanics with you... I think we just clearly have a difference of opinion.  I just happen to think it's reasonable for the complete process of hand crafting arrows to take longer than crafting ammunition.

Again though, I'm not interested in arguing with you... but you posted a supposition and I gave you my thoughts on it.  We don't have to agree.  

Edited February 4, 2020 by ManicManiac

[acada]

I think the higher difficulty in fletching is counterweighted by the fact the every arrow you make increase your archery skill. While bullets and cartidges goes to special skill gunsmithing.

And I agree with the opinion that making bullets is kinda easier. And IMHO it should be. It is something like: Casing + primer + powder + bullet. Slam it into press and bam. Of course you have to know how much powder otherwise the BAM could be literally bam.

But to make an proper arrow... The shaft has to be straight. This alone is not trivial task. Fletching has to be in correct place. Head has to be attached correctly as well. And the whole creation has to be in balance, not nose or tail heavy. One mistake and the whole creation can be traveling to the moon instead to the moose.

I am comfy with the setting in the game. Both types of projectiles needs something hard to get (birch sapplings versus stump remover and sulfur). Both needs special place like furnace for arrowhead and gunsmith bench for cartidges. Both have something reusable but easy to loose.

I noticed another thing. In my last runs I never found hammer on the same map as forge. Previously I usualy found hammer on Forlong Muskeg or Broken Railroad, but not in latest runs. Now I have to haul this piece of metal to the forge as well as coal.

[peteloud]

Many of the criticisms I read here reflect the irritations that I feel with the developments since Episode 3. Every now and again I wonder if HTL is losing it. Pre-Episode 3 I had no doubt at all that it was the best game I have ever played.  I have played over 3,500 games days mostly at Stalker to Voyager levels, and thoroughly enjoyed the challenges, (and I don't use mods to make it easy).

Now I am forcing myself to return Wintermute to complete Ep .3, (at hardest level), which I gave up ages ago when I was halfway through.  I am not enjoying it, but I feel the need to complete it, because I don't want to think that I was defeated by it.

I am close to giving up with TLD.

[1galbatorix1]

32 minutes ago, peteloud said:

Many of the criticisms I read here reflect the irritations that I feel with the developments since Episode 3.

Yeaaah, about that... Remember when HTL claimed that they want to keep the HUD minimalistic in order to increase the immersion? I guess it's only a thing of the past now, because last update we got large red health bar for our terminator-wolves. And this "morale meter" is bigger than the rest of the HUD. Well, at least it lets me know how many times i have to throw my blue flare in front of my feet to make them disapeear... You know, IMMERSION.

[acada]

@peteloud I hear you. But for me it is not this way. Of course I hate things falling through floor, mole-bear and such. But these are bugs. The new game mechanics like timber wolfs, gunsmithing, I am fine with them.

I enjoyed the EP 3. The only head scratching was the very end of it. I was fully loaded with medical stuff because I expected I am going to help people in Perverance Mills. Instead of that the game ended in CH.

The only new thing in the game I did not like was the sound clutter. But it is better after 1.73.

[jhickie]

20 hours ago, tinyfenix said:

That’s the thing. I intentionally went into this playthrough completely blind after over a year of not playing. That way I wouldn’t have the locations memorized and it would prevent me from “cheating” or meta gaming. I was going for a realistic experience and just never could find a hammer. I’ve pretty much scoured the main areas and no such luck. 

I also know it’s a game and designed to be difficult but it really doesn’t make a lot of sense to have a forge... where someone lived... and no tools for miles to utilize it... did the person who lived there build a forge and then drive away, tossing their tools out the window randomly? It’s just kind of hilarious. Like there’s no hammers anywhere near any forges but you can only find one in a completely remote location miles from any building where a hammer would be used??

 

20 hours ago, tinyfenix said:

I mean, I can “repair” a can opener with simple tools and a piece of metal reclaimed from a prybar but I can’t make an arrow head from the blade of a broken knife? 

Im also not sure what you’re getting at. Crafting an arrow shaft is like the easiest possible thing you can do in the game. But making a sharp pointy object is literally the most challenging... lol Even making a premium bow is somehow easier than making an arrow head. 

I can literally go into the garden right now and find a rock I could shatter to make arrow heads out of. It’s a pretty simple concept. And I have no idea how to operate a machine that loads bullets into shells. 

This is also leaving out the fact that to make bullets, you need to harvest car batteries lol. 

You really think crafting a simple arrow head should require more skill than transforming car batteries into bullets????

You said it yourself.. it's about gameplay balance. Things may make more common sense when analyzed logically, but for the purposes of gameplay and balance some things aren't going to be realistic. This effect is more pronounced for harder difficulties. It's just the way it is.. you can either suspend disbelief (much like watching a movie) and enjoy the game, or get frustrated with things not being the way you want and don't enjoy it. This game is not going to be for everyone. Personally, if I am not enjoying a game, I simply move on to another one.

I think the real issue that TLD suffers from is people expecting too much realism from it due to it being based in reality. Many games are based on sci-fi, fantasy, horror, etc. With these types of games, you never hear people complaining that things aren't realistic enough because there's nothing in reality to base it on. Nobody ever says, "Wow, this plasma rifle sure doesn't fire like the one I have at home!" With TLD, it's all based in reality, albeit with an apocalyptic twist. Every detail gets over analyzed against reality. "Hey, my feet aren't making a realistic sound when I walk on the snow!" It's a bit exhausting.

 

20 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

On the easier difficulties, it is not uncommon to find a hammer near at least one of the 3 forges in the game.  The harder difficulties are meant to be harder, so hammers do not spawn near the forge.  The head canon I use is that the forges were looted for forging tools long before Will/Astrid arrived on Great Bear.  People needed them to break apart furniture and we not using them for forging (but knew they would likely find one at a forge).

They don't want to make crafting arrows simple simply because it is the primary weapon for their hardest difficulty setting.  Loper relies on the need to forge the tools and the need to first find a hammer in another zone to make it difficult.  Making it easier would undermine that setting.  Since guns don't spawn in Loper (unless custom), the relative difficulty of crafting bullets is irrelevant to that setting.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Create some canon for yourself that explains all of the inconsistencies and unrealistic things in the game. Well done, @upupandaway, this is precisely what I do as well. Giving little stories to the things you find in the game will help you develop your own narrative in Survival mode and will close any loops that may exist. Max in ML got attacked while trying to make a fire, that's why you find matches or a fire book on him. My take, anyway. I've got tons more.

Well said regarding Loper too. Things are going to be out of balance because Loper is hard and it wants to kill you.The realism argument is less relevant as the difficulty mode increases.

[Lurve]

On 2/4/2020 at 4:20 PM, tinyfenix said:

That’s the thing. I intentionally went into this playthrough completely blind after over a year of not playing. That way I wouldn’t have the locations memorized and it would prevent me from “cheating” or meta gaming. I was going for a realistic experience and just never could find a hammer. I’ve pretty much scoured the main areas and no such luck.

Yep.  Harder difficulties are less a game of exploration than of map knowledge.  They assume you already know the possible locations of the legendary Last Box of Twinkies as well as safe routes to get around, and are balanced around making it a challenge to check them. 

Conversely, that same map knowledge makes easier difficulties trivial, because everyone knows if you need a twinkie box you can just rope climb down Suicide Cliff and find one at the base of Greeble Canyon, but then one just spawns in Trapper's?  Loot pinata!

[OldGrey]

This, from the most recent Milton Mailbag:

“I have some ideas for how to improve Arrowheads and Arrows in general. Using a whetstone to maintain them sounds like a good idea.”

- Looks like they will probably update arrows at some point.

Personally, I’d quite like them to add a stone arrowhead too. Means those stones could be useful for something more than just pelting them at rabbits.

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, OldGrey said:

This, from the most recent Milton Mailbag:

“I have some ideas for how to improve Arrowheads and Arrows in general. Using a whetstone to maintain them sounds like a good idea.”

- Looks like they will probably update arrows at some point.

Personally, I’d quite like them to add a stone arrowhead too. Means those stones could be useful for something more than just pelting them at rabbits.

It sounds to me like Raph is thinking about making arrowheads degrade and then using whetstones to sharpen them.  I hope this is done with an increase in the number of whetstones that can be found in the game (or with the added use of another sort of strop (beaver tails were discussed on another thread).  Even on lower difficulties, I have tended to eventually run low on whetstones.  Maybe I'm missing a few while looting (they can be hard to spot), but I'd hate to have to use them up sharpening arrowhead and have no means to sharpen my hacket or knife.

[peteloud]

I have always been baffled why we can not make an arrow from wood alone which was only able to kill rabbits.  The would be a realistic and sensible way of making the start of a game easier.

 

[ManicManiac]

6 hours ago, peteloud said:

way of making the start of a game easier.

This is why we can use stones to stun rabbits... a way of making the start of the game easier.

I think the game is fine as it is... I think it's better to learn to adapt to the challenges we face, as opposed to wanting to dull the challenges to better suit us or make them "easier."

[peteloud]

6 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I think the game is fine as it is... I

You might think the game is fine, but what do people who have recently bought the game think? 

 

Us old hands who post here have played the game for a great many hours and start off with knowledge of the maps, the techniques and increased skill levels.

New players, don't have our experience and would benefit from a an easier start.   Not only that, if they were enthusiastic they might recommend the game to their friends and increase the sales of the game.

 

 

 

[ManicManiac]

2 hours ago, peteloud said:

New players, don't have our experience

Right, and I would love to be back in their shoes... if I had discovered this game last week instead of 5(ish) years ago I would be even more blown away.  This is the reason that I say the challenge is part of what makes the game wonderful... over coming the challenge and learning how to survive is what I think feels so rewarding.

I think that making things easier cheapens that feeling...  There are plenty of games that have what I consider cheap and easy mechanics, and they just end up sitting abandoned in my steam library.

I just think it's better to have to rise to a challenge, rather than lowering a challenge for the sake of making things easier.  I just think that's a mistake...

Besides... we can lower the effective difficulty with the gameplay modes as well as custom settings.  As a result of those options, I don't feel there is any reason to make core/fundamental gameplay any easier. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Jimmy]

I think the game itself is a fairly niche market item.

People who want to run across maps shooting anything that moves have plenty of options on the market.

People who want to build houses and craft items from simple blocky resources have plenty of options on the market.

The Long Dark is instead, at its core, a strategy survival game, not a crafting game. The difficulty of crafting is part of the strategy. Do you spend the time and resources to gather the materials you need to craft, or make do with what you already have? Interesting choices such as this form the core of the gameplay.

With experience, players learn how to better manage their resources. With experience, players learn how to better navigate the map. With experience, players learn where to find the tools and materials they need.

With four levels of difficulty ranging from 'super tourist' to 'brutal deathmarch' there's plenty of opportunity to learn how to play the game, even for new players. The story mode increases this by offering a very well structured tutorial to the game as well.

I think the Hinterland team have the balance right.

[ManicManiac]

@Jimmy

Agreed.