Wolfes and fires since Errant Pilgrim

[Guest jeffpeng]

Hello fellow Survivors!

Recently there has been a lot of confusion about how wolves react to fires since the latest (amazing) Update. Especially @The Black Knight's video has caused some confusion among people used to the old behaviour, and it was even suspected to be a bug. Also in other threads people have complained about this change, which, AGAIN, wasn't properly announced in any changelog. Now I'm going to show you that indeed this behaviour is how wolves work now. Please excuse my pretty heavy German accent, but I sadly don't get anywhere as much practice speaking English and I do writing.

This behaviour is consistent across Stalker, Interloper and As The Dead Sleep. Throwing a torch doesn't work on Interloper but on Stalker, but threatening ANY weapon makes the wolf run consistently and reproduceably even on Interloper and As The Dead Sleep. I must ask: Dear Developers, HOW does this make any sense.... at all? But at least.... yes, fires still are a great way to deter a wolf from biting your bum. Just make sure you bring a stone now since wolves apparently really hate them when paired with a campfire.

side from that I want to openly discuss if that change has merit.

I personally am pretty torn on it. I always was a proponent of the argument that just dropping an instant campfire was too easy to deal with wolves. But now campfires are no protection anymore, even if they are already established. Because the thing is: eventually that wolf will stop holding its ground and attack ... unless I threaten it with a stone of doom. That potentially means sleeping next to a campfire isn't safe anymore. Potentially even inside a cave.

What I could and would get behind is that fires don't count until they are created. Meaning if you try to start a campfire with a wolf stalking you .... the wolf would see that as a trigger to attack you as normally would when you would threaten it with a weapon. That way you would have to deal with the wolf some other way than just dropping a campfire. But if the campfire would already burn, like you would have one if you were taking apart some game you hunted, the wolf would run from the fire since to the wolf it's just a giant pile of flames.

If you guys have better ideas: cometh forth!

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by jeffpeng

[Guest jeffpeng]

Sorry for some reason the video needs to be at the end of the Post 😕 

And inb4: Yes, this is vanilla Interloper.

Edited December 15, 2019 by jeffpeng

[Ahatch]

So have you just tried luring the wolf and not aimed a stone to confirm an attack is imminent. Had a wolf come to get me by a fire on my interloper run and stopped right near the fire growling but I was stood up to shoot in the face with my bow and in turned tail and ran. Thinking the wolf is waiting for the fire to go out before it makes it's move. 

[turtle777]

Looks like a bug to me. 
Submit a bug report, and see what they say. 
 

-t

[Guest jeffpeng]

14 hours ago, Ahatch said:

So have you just tried luring the wolf and not aimed a stone to confirm an attack is imminent. Had a wolf come to get me by a fire on my interloper run and stopped right near the fire growling but I was stood up to shoot in the face with my bow and in turned tail and ran. Thinking the wolf is waiting for the fire to go out before it makes it's move. 

Yes. If you just lure him and wait.... he eventually will attack. He will not wait indefinitely.

[Ahatch]

I would have to say the wolves are much tougher in this update from what I've seen so far. Hard to get a bead on them when you want to shoot them with arrow . They move too much and scurry away when you pull a weapon. 

[StoneyWolf]

I really hope this is something their going to fix! all these wolf AI changes since Errant Pilgrim have really sucked some of the joy from this game.. at least for me

[peteloud]

Several times recently I have wanted to kill a wolf for food.  I let the wolf start a zig-zag approach attack and waited with, my revolver aimed, for that last part of the attack when the wolf runs straight at me and closes in.  The revolver wouldn't fire.  This was not to it being faulty, it seems that the revolver is inactivated when the wolf is close enough to give you a sure hit.

 

[cullam]

5 hours ago, peteloud said:

 The revolver wouldn't fire.  This was not to it being faulty, it seems that the revolver is inactivated when the wolf is close enough to give you a sure hit.

 

That definitely sounds likely to be a bug. Submit it, and if it is, then at least they'll know about it!

[Guest jeffpeng]

6 hours ago, peteloud said:

This was not to it being faulty, it seems that the revolver is inactivated when the wolf is close enough to give you a sure hit.

I just experienced that in my new Long Term Stalker (so much GEAR OMG). And I thought I was imagining things.

[MarrowStone]

6 hours ago, peteloud said:

Several times recently I have wanted to kill a wolf for food.  I let the wolf start a zig-zag approach attack and waited with, my revolver aimed, for that last part of the attack when the wolf runs straight at me and closes in.  The revolver wouldn't fire.  This was not to it being faulty, it seems that the revolver is inactivated when the wolf is close enough to give you a sure hit.

 

The revolver and flare gun have this really strange hang-time where you cant fire immediately after aiming, but the rifle still lets you. I've been charged many times by timberwolve's while spamming the trigger button and not being able to get a shot off until after they're behind me due to this strange feature. You can shoot your rifle wayyy before both pistols! It makes no sense. 

But from how you described it, you were already aiming for a considerable amount of time?

 

On 12/15/2019 at 2:54 PM, jeffpeng said:

What I could and would get behind is that fires don't count until they are created. Meaning if you try to start a campfire with a wolf stalking you......

This would make accelerants way more valuable as a result and used more often as well, great solution! As of now, I'll be harvesting a deer and a wolf will attack me through my campfire before I'm able to threaten it with a stone, also, they don't run far enough away and keep coming back. 

Thanks again for shedding light on some weird wolf behavior; your videos demonstrate them very well and have helped me adjust my playstyle for now. I'm always carrying a stone with me from now on. Could you direct me to this @blackknights video you mentioned? I'd like to check it out. 

[Guest jeffpeng]

26 minutes ago, MarrowStone said:

Could you direct me to this @blackknights video you mentioned? I'd like to check it out. 

Apparently the post no longer exists as it was part of a rather argumentative shootshow in another thread the admin didn't take kindly to.

26 minutes ago, MarrowStone said:

I'm always carrying a stone with me from now on.

Worth noting it works with any kind of weapon. Just aim and they run. Also it's possible to hit a wolf in its "Hold Ground State" when firing the revolver from the hip. 

I kinda think I know the reasoning behind this. The wolf runs to avoid players "exploiting" this as an easy way to kill wolves. It's just not smart enough (yet....) to realize that the stone is no real threat. They will most likely change that with another update rather soon. I wouldn't even be surprised if they made the wolf jump over the fire once you aim a weapon. And after all that's transpired since Crossroads Elegy I wouldn't even put it past them that when you pull a stone on a wolf the wolf pulls a gun on you.

In general the agenda seems to be to remove all forms of reliable defense and all forms of low-risk hunting. Pretty much like how Timberwolves are: you can't reliably defend yourself (except with one of three or so blue flares in the game, kek), and you cannot hunt them risk free since they smell you from half the region away. I can see how this actually might seem like a good idea. But the result is that players (like me) that - so far - have abstained from exploiting lapses in the pathfinding algorithm are going to resort more and more to such strategies as those that were conforming with the game's rules are quickly disappearing.

You know something is going awry when resorting to exploits becomes the reasonable thing to do.

Edit: What I really wonder, however, is: Why?

Edited December 20, 2019 by jeffpeng

[Ohioastro]

I have to say that the changes to the wolf AI have been very much for the worse.  It is exceedingly difficult to cook meat over an outdoor fire without drawing wolves from halfway across the map (in Stalker).  Having done a number of runs using Jackrabbit Island as a base, it is new (and unwelcome) to have wolves climbing to the top of the hill when cooking outside.  They also tend to glitch out running because you're adjacent to the building. This isn't making it "harder" - they attack the rabbits on the island, killing them for me and then getting shot themselves - but it is making the already annoying all-wolves-all-the-time aspect worse.  More generally, it's a severe handicap for any maps / locations where you need to cook outside - Forlorn Muskeg is borderline unplayable without committing wolf genocide for me.

If we absolutely have to have this really unwelcome AI change, it would be useful to have some toggle controlling the wolf reaction radius or the like.  Better yet, allow badges in custom games so that we can turn them way down, or off, and still make progress towards long term goals.  It seems more than a little off that I can earn achievements on thee easiest game setting, but not if I change any of the dials to make it harder.

[StoneyWolf]

2 minutes ago, Ohioastro said:

I have to say that the changes to the wolf AI have been very much for the worse

I feel the same way. All the wolf AI changes that came with Ep.3 and Errant Pilgrim have really sucked the fun out of the game the most annoying things being the wolves auto dodging when you aim at them when your not even detected and the fires no longer scaring them plus on top of that they changed baiting so it pretty much doesn't work. Timber wolves are another annoying feature added but that's a separate discussion. 

I really hope they change this stuff back, IMO all these changes have done is make the game annoying to play which is unfortunate as it's been my favorite game to play for years now.   

[Guest jeffpeng]

About cooking outside .... you might want to consider "dropping" all your meat on the ground, like you do in "true" deadman with completely bonkers detection radiusses. This way you won't get tracked from half the map away. Also avoid timelapses so you can stone any wolf that casually passes by. All that being said .... this is a lot to take into account for players used to a certain style of gameplay which now has become mostly invalid. And again ..... all of that basically unannounced. Which is my biggest gripe with it, personally.

[MarrowStone]

53 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

you might want to consider "dropping" all your meat on the ground, like you do in "true" deadman with completely bonkers detection radiusses. This way you won't get tracked from half the map away

That doesn't sound fun, reminds me of having to drop my tools every time I want to smash open a can. 

As it stands, hunting is impossible without dealing with wolves unless you drop the meat as you harvest it too! Why should i bother and fight the menus like that just to keep from potentially being killed by multiple wolves?

[Guest jeffpeng]

Just now, MarrowStone said:

That doesn't sound fun, reminds me of having to drop my tools every time I want to smash open a can. 

Just smash "3" until you've dropped everything. It's how I actually play since deadman became a thing. It also prevents bears from walking in on your cooking sessions.

[StoneyWolf]

1 hour ago, Hawk said:

I'm seriously thinking about going back to V-1.56, back when the game was still the best game out there, and consider it the last update I'll install (unless they make some serious changes, which I doubt).

Either that or just uninstall the game completely. Sad really. TLD was once a great game.

 

Yeah it's a shame but the recent changes make me not want to play either

[DirtyMadcap]

Am I the only one not able to scare away a wolf by aiming a weapon, stone included?  Maybe I should figure out video recording so I can share with you all how desirable I am to wolves.

[Guest jeffpeng]

15 hours ago, Hawk said:

I'm seriously thinking about going back to V-1.56

If you wanna go back to when TLD was at its peak.... then you kinda have to go back to Vigilant Flame aka 1.37. Which I actually am considering myself.

[StoneyWolf]

I wish ps4 players had the option to play older versions. I would defiantly do so given the current state of the game.

It's kinda bull that ps4 doesn't have this ability in this day and age although I'm fully aware that is has nothing to do with Hinterland.

[MarrowStone]

I think the current version is playable on Voyageur difficulty. Stalker and Interloper players have taken the full brunt of this. The wolves hide right outside your doors and living nomadically while hunting is impossible since that requires you to carry meat with you. Cutting up any carcass attracts wolves unless you drop the meat instantly as you cut it up which doesn't make any sense. 

Aside from PC user interface (please let us use our keyboards to navigate like consoles, wsad for arrow keys and e for enter) and wolves, I think the game is at its peak still. I have faith that wolf behaviour can be ironed out and allow for more consistent defense while simultaneously eliminating easy kills.

We cant just go back to before, but currently there's not enough reliability in any action unless you've got a weapon skill at level 5. But you still can't miss your shot with that either. 

[StoneyWolf]

6 minutes ago, MarrowStone said:

I have faith that wolf behaviour can be ironed out and allow for more consistent defense while simultaneously eliminating easy kills

Not everyone thinks killing wolves was easy before and the new AI is more annoying then hard that's the issue I have with it. Auto dodging,not being scared by fires and no baiting just IMO makes the game less fun. It's the same with timber wolves.

[MarrowStone]

1 hour ago, StoneyWolf said:

Not everyone thinks killing wolves was easy before and the new AI is more annoying then hard that's the issue I have with it. Auto dodging,not being scared by fires and no baiting just IMO makes the game less fun. It's the same with timber wolves.

Oh no, youre right. The easy kills I mentioned involved using bait. The stuff you listed is exactly all the points i thought needed ironed out for this all to work. I'm not denying that there's a problem here. I just have optimism that theres a solution to all this.

I think upon dropping bait, the normal wolves should approach it and charge the bait similar to a timberwolf then run away. 

Fires should cause wolves to run, but only when its fully lit. This encourages players to bring accelerant. 

[StoneyWolf]

10 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

Oh no, youre right. The easy kills I mentioned involved using bait. The stuff you listed is exactly all the points i thought needed ironed out for this all to work. I'm not denying that there's a problem here. I just have optimism that theres a solution to all this.

I think upon dropping bait, the normal wolves should approach it and charge the bait similar to a timberwolf then run away. 

Fires should cause wolves to run, but only when its fully lit. This encourages players to bring accelerant. 

I think fires and baiting worked perfect before. Hinterland called it an "exploit" and just assumed that it was easy for everyone to do which is just not true a lot of people struggled while trying to bait without getting into a struggle or wasting arrows/bullets and what they've done with both is just make it harder for the sake of making it harder.