Wolfes and fires since Errant Pilgrim

[JAFO]

The thing I find most curious about this whole debacle (let's call it what it is!), is that Hinterland apparently have engaged a professional play-testing organisation to test new releases before they are made public. If so, they're certainly not getting value for money from these people, because concerns like these should have been picked up on and addressed before release. Certainly, if they'd made use of the normal Indie system of using the community to beta-test new releases, as they once did, they'd have received plenty of feedback on what worked and what didn't. But no.. that would spoil the 'surprise' of what changes were coming, so instead they switched to hiring outsiders to test new releases.

The end result of farming out testing to a bunch of (to my mind, at least) incompetent "professionals" is precisely what we've seen with every single release made since 1.0. A whole slew of frantic multiple patch releasing in the week(s) post-release, to deal with glaringly obvious bugs and problems that the play-testers SHOULD have caught well before release day. Right at the time when the team ought to be patting themselves on the back, celebrating the release and taking a well-earned break, they're forced into a desperate round of patching before they can take some time off, still leaving a bunch of complaints and problems to be addressed as soon as they come back from vacation. That surely can't be good for team morale.

It's a similar thing when it comes to the half-arsed changelogs they release. Hinterland may be an Indie company, but since Raph and many others on the team come from a AAA background, they still retain remnants of that AAA mindset where nothing about changes gets communicated to the players. Changelogs were a foreign concept to them when they began, and while they've tried to get their heads around the idea, they've never really taken to them and don't truly understand their purpose and importance, with the result that what they do provide lacks important necessary detail, is vague at times, and omits far too much altogether. Again, going by Raph's recent Kotaku interview, it's apparently about not spoiling the 'surprise'.

And at the end of the day, this approach costs Hinterland money and goodwill with every release... and it doesn't need to.

Edited January 3, 2020 by JAFO

[Guest jeffpeng]

@JAFOI think I can't add much more to this. You pretty much nailed it.

At this point I'm about to give TLD the MacOS treatment, meaning only updating a full version back. I'm pretty bummed out about the state the game is in. I understand bugs happen, but currently the game is just being torn down from the inside. I mean I can deal with this stuff - but I don't actually want to. I'm just happy that they made the Time Capsule, so I actually have an out if things don't improve. But it's a damn shame.

About the enitre "spoiling the surprise" point ... yeah I get that. But then they should employ actual playtesters, not function testers that miss everything that's not on their test catalogue. Actual people that actually play the game, and that give actual feedback from a players perspective. And other big games do open betas of new versions, too. I mean .... LoL is on beta with new features weeks, sometimes even months. And last time I checked it's still one of the highest grossing games worldwide.

Sign up selected community members to do beta testing with an NDA, and you even minimize the risk of stuff leaking ahead of time. But even if it does it would be preferable to the current - how did you put it? - debacle.

Edited January 3, 2020 by jeffpeng

[Muestereate]

I've experienced the trigger hang time thing several times and got attacked.  I haven't tried pullinng the trigger during the zig zag because I don't think I've ever hit one except off the hip. I did get a wolf to leave his dear by pointing the revolver at himm. Only later did I notice the revolver was empty,  Well I guess a wolf couldn't know if it was loaded but I'm not sure they would recognize a gun as a threat anyhow.

I don't think I have killed a wolf with the revolver. I've beaten them to death but I hit one point blank while he stared at my fire, the gun actually went off btw. At five feet he should have dropped. Should I even go looking since the meat isn't very worth eating.

Timberwolves, Funny how I haven't went into those map areas, Didn't bother looking for the machine shop either and don't think I have a desire to. Maybe a real late game scenario. I just play stalker though.

New wolves aren't terrible, Its not like I ever liked the old ones either , LOL.

[JAFO]

On 1/4/2020 at 3:36 AM, jeffpeng said:

But then they should employ actual playtesters, not function testers that miss everything that's not on their test catalogue. Actual people that actually play the game, and that give actual feedback from a players perspective.

...

Sign up selected community members to do beta testing with an NDA, and you even minimize the risk of stuff leaking ahead of time.

Bingo. This really needs doing.

[MarrowStone]

@JAFO, your 'debacle' essay was written in a very nice and non combative tone while not beating around the bush being afraid of what you think. I like it. 

Even if you're wrong or working off of assumptions on some points it's a great example of good player feedback. 

@Muestereate, The trigger hang time seems to be tied with the aim down sights animation and not the charging event. I've shot both the flare gun and revolver after aiming while under no threat and it is still there. 

If this extra time is intentional they need to slow the aiming animations for both so it communicates you arent ready and wont feel so clunky or buggy. 

One problem with this game is that a lot of features that are intentional aren't presented in a way that feels intentional or is communicated correctly. These little things add up and lead to the game feeling buggy and unpolished.

Are hits with guns and bows chance based now? The flare gun doesn't seem to stick consistently either. 

[Guest jeffpeng]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:19 PM, Muestereate said:

I did get a wolf to leave his dear by pointing the revolver at himm. Only later did I notice the revolver was empty

Wow that's actually a good idea. Just aim empty weapons. Crafty.

2 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

One problem with this game is that a lot of features that are intentional aren't presented in a way that feels intentional or is communicated correctly.

That's basically my entire point about the lack of proper changelogs and my primary gripe with the recent changes. If new updates introduce stuff that just suprise-kills people .... people will stop updating. With the availabilty of the Time Capsule I see the player base in danger of becoming severely fractured between different versions.

[Serenity]

On 12/21/2019 at 12:29 AM, MarrowStone said:

That doesn't sound fun

Don't generalize from your playstyle to others. I've always done that. It makes cooking much more immersive for me. I see my meat on the ground and can just drag it across to the cooking surfaces and off of them. And don't have to mess around in the menus which I don't find fun at all

Edited January 6, 2020 by Serenity

[MarrowStone]

4 hours ago, Serenity said:

Don't generalize from your playstyle to others. I've always done that. It makes cooking much more immersive for me. I see my meat on the ground and can just drag it across to the cooking surfaces and off of them. And don't have to mess around in the menus which I don't find fun at all

It's fine to have a different experience with it than me. Fun is subjective so maybe i should've said specifically that it doesn't sound fun to me in particular. I didn't intend to marginalize any other opinions on it. I like to see the condition and weight of the food before I cook it so dropping them on the ground makes it take longer to gather that information, especially since condition takes a few seconds to pop up when previewing the item. 

My perspective is I'm struggling with arbitrary menu stuff like having to drop all my bladed tools when i want to smash open a can. Or having two lanterns and pressing 1 or using the radial menu only equips the highest condition lantern even if it has no fuel left. 

It is also in reference to having to drop all my meat every time I harvest anything from a carcass. But that was before I was taught by a community member to just press 3 a bunch of times to skip the menu. 

In the current state of the game, carrying any meat basically hinders my ability to explore the world, when all the processed food runs out I am left with always dealing with wolves whenever I want to leave base with any buffer of food for my travels. I feel like the first scent bar could be lowered in effect slightly. 

[ThePancakeLady]

I leave meat behind, and carry only a cattail stalks, if I am going out for extensive exploration, and will cook and eat any meat I kill or come across. Cattails are good food, and lots of them out there, and they have no scent. Life-saving in Stalker.

[Guest jeffpeng]

1 hour ago, ThePancakeLady said:

I leave meat behind, and carry only a cattail stalks, if I am going out for extensive exploration, and will cook and eat any meat I kill or come across. Cattails are good food, and lots of them out there, and they have no scent. Life-saving in Stalker.

What's life-saving in Stalker is essential on Interloper. But cattails eventually run out, and old-world food is scarce to begin with. I'm currently playing an Interloper that tries to maintain well fed (and so far is successful 20 days in), but I can already see how this is probably not sustainable unless I start hunting very, very soon. I've still got a lot of cattails to find (most of TWM, most parts of ML, all of CH, some remote parts of Milton, large parts of FM, some remote areas of HRV), but with an average consumption of around 4000 calories per day right now I can't see this working out much longer than day 150 or so even if I start hunting seriously in the next 10 days. Not if I want to remain on the move and retain Well Fed.

[manolitode]

16 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

What's life-saving in Stalker is essential on Interloper. But cattails eventually run out, and old-world food is scarce to begin with. I'm currently playing an Interloper that tries to maintain well fed (and so far is successful 20 days in), but I can already see how this is probably not sustainable unless I start hunting very, very soon. I've still got a lot of cattails to find (most of TWM, most parts of ML, all of CH, some remote parts of Milton, large parts of FM, some remote areas of HRV), but with an average consumption of around 4000 calories per day right now I can't see this working out much longer than day 150 or so even if I start hunting seriously in the next 10 days. Not if I want to remain on the move and retain Well Fed.

Keeping well fed for that long sounds like a hard nut to crack. But you seem to know your loot locations well, is there a reason why you didn't mention PV for cattails? I like to follow the river trails there in the first few days of a run. Moving stuff out of there is usually the only time when I care about being well fed on interloper, don't wanna waste a flare just cause wolves can catch up and I'm too lazy to make two runs over 5 or so kgs. Anywho, going to PV on day 20 should be a bit of a hassle. 

[Guest jeffpeng]

1 hour ago, manolitodeespana said:

is there a reason why you didn't mention PV for cattails

PV isn't even a real region on Interloper imho. Any cattail you could possibly loot there will just serve to trap you longer there than you need to. If it's on my way - yeah, sure. But I wouldn't go out of my way for 10 cattails just to get trapped for 12 days in return. (Slight exaggeration. Or is it?)

Also yeah.... I don't think I will maintain it indefinitely. I was merely looking at the possibility to keep it up. I'm actually still torn on if Well Fed is even worth it in the long run. It's nice to be able to carry 35kg .... but you burn through your food at 5 times the rate for it. Before you could make an argument for it as a lategame trait .... but now that is pretty much gone as I don't see myself able to maintain it without being able to carry meat period.

But .... let's see how it goes.

Edited January 6, 2020 by jeffpeng

[JAFO]

17 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

@JAFO, your 'debacle' essay was written in a very nice and non combative tone while not beating around the bush being afraid of what you think. I like it. 

Even if you're wrong or working off of assumptions on some points it's a great example of good player feedback. 

Thank you... 🙂

[MarrowStone]

6 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

Not if I want to remain on the move and retain Well Fed.

This is why i feel like the scent mechanic could be looked over again. All renewable foods give off scent except for birch tea. 

[manolitode]

6 hours ago, micah6vs8 said:

 

Well Fed on Loper is not that difficult to maintain permanently.

So, so many cats, rabbits and ravaged deer corpses for early in a run. Carter in particular has many ravaged deer carcasses near it, and it is a draw early for the ML bedroll and the Ravine flare pistol.

Oh, I agree it's perfectly doable to keep well fed in early game if you're familiar with what the maps can offer. A splendid start is all good but one mistake and your bonus is snap gone. As for difficulty level, keeping well fed permanently sounds like way more than most loper-players can handle. What's your strategy there?

7 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

PV isn't even a real region on Interloper imho. Any cattail you could possibly loot there will just serve to trap you longer there than you need to. If it's on my way - yeah, sure. But I wouldn't go out of my way for 10 cattails just to get trapped for 12 days in return. (Slight exaggeration. Or is it?)

Also yeah.... I don't think I will maintain it indefinitely. I was merely looking at the possibility to keep it up. I'm actually still torn on if Well Fed is even worth it in the long run. It's nice to be able to carry 35kg .... but you burn through your food at 5 times the rate for it. Before you could make an argument for it as a lategame trait .... but now that is pretty much gone as I don't see myself able to maintain it without being able to carry meat period.

Seems like it could be worth it if you e.g. move a lot of gear between regions, like to gather loads of firewood far off your main base or play a custom with added rifles. Will be interesting to hear how many days you manage. As for PV I like to devote a full day there to cattails, it's quite forgiving in the first few days and in my opinion Worth it to get out with approx 1/10 of great bear's cattails.

[Guest jeffpeng]

5 hours ago, manolitodeespana said:

As for PV I like to devote a full day there to cattails, it's quite forgiving in the first few days and in my opinion Worth it to get out with approx 1/10 of great bear's cattails.

The run started in HRV, and I actually went back there for the Signal Fire and the Waterfall Cave. Was more or less a new strategy to try out. I went to the summit regardless (I'm still on TWM currently), even tho all I needed were my second ear wraps. Thinking about it .... it might indeed be better to beeline to the summit, pick up the PV stuff on the way in and out, and be done with it earlier in the game. That's how I usually do it. This time I lost two days traversing PV once already. I'm pretty sure I'll lose more on the way back.

Another mistake I made was to actually greed for the Signal Fire, for which I even had to go get a hatchet first. All it got me was a surplus hammer and a second Mackinaw, which I will replace in the long run anyways. There really isn't that much of a good reason to go to the Signal Fire on Loper if you actually think about it. Waterfall Cave in and out should be sufficient.

5 hours ago, manolitodeespana said:

As for difficulty level, keeping well fed permanently sounds like way more than most loper-players can handle.

That's kinda my point. Permanently becomes incresingly harder the longer you actually plan to live. If you play loot and scoot, and then retire your survivor once you have done all key locations ... no problem. Just make sure to keep on the move and to not tick too many locations more than once. But if you actually want to go for a 100+ days game you start wondering how sustainable this is. This answer is, probably: it isn't in the long run. Assuming a high octane playstyle (4000 calories / day) you need to shoot a deer every 2 days (average 9kg * 800 calories * 1.25 Cooking V = 9000 calories) on average. That's doable, but only if you keep moving between spots, but yeah - doable.

The real problem emerges with the scent as @MarrowStone points out (btw good look surviving on birch tea ). 2600 calories is enough to travel a significant distance. But upon reaching your destination you will have limited time to procure food. Sure you can setup a long series of way points you stock with food. Once proficient with the bow you can probably add the occasional wolf to your menu. But all of that still doesn't keep into account maintenance of clothing and weaponry, and we're basically running in circles on a map with a high amount of game, like ML or CH. That alone is hard enough. But now it isn't even feasible to move food between places unless you are indeed willing to confront wolves head on. And I think now that decoy baiting is broken that probably isn't the most sustainable approach. But I gotta test and see how well crouched scent baiting with Archery V works. Maybe the solution to the entire predicament is to just hunt everything that moves.

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

The run started in HRV, and I actually went back there for the Signal Fire and the Waterfall Cave. Was more or less a new strategy to try out. I went to the summit regardless (I'm still on TWM currently), even tho all I needed were my second ear wraps. Thinking about it .... it might indeed be better to beeline to the summit, pick up the PV stuff on the way in and out, and be done with it earlier in the game. That's how I usually do it. This time I lost two days traversing PV once already. I'm pretty sure I'll lose more on the way back.

Another mistake I made was to actually greed for the Signal Fire, for which I even had to go get a hatchet first. All it got me was a surplus hammer and a second Mackinaw, which I will replace in the long run anyways. There really isn't that much of a good reason to go to the Signal Fire on Loper if you actually think about it. Waterfall Cave in and out should be sufficient.

That's kinda my point. Permanently becomes incresingly harder the longer you actually plan to live. If you play loot and scoot, and then retire your survivor once you have done all key locations ... no problem. Just make sure to keep on the move and to not tick too many locations more than once. But if you actually want to go for a 100+ days game you start wondering how sustainable this is. This answer is, probably: it isn't in the long run. Assuming a high octane playstyle (4000 calories / day) you need to shoot a deer every 2 days (average 9kg * 800 calories * 1.25 Cooking V = 9000 calories) on average. That's doable, but only if you keep moving between spots, but yeah - doable.

The real problem emerges with the scent as @MarrowStone points out (btw good look surviving on birch tea ). 2600 calories is enough to travel a significant distance. But upon reaching your destination you will have limited time to procure food. Sure you can setup a long series of way points you stock with food. Once proficient with the bow you can probably add the occasional wolf to your menu. But all of that still doesn't keep into account maintenance of clothing and weaponry, and we're basically running in circles on a map with a high amount of game, like ML or CH. That alone is hard enough. But now it isn't even feasible to move food between places unless you are indeed willing to confront wolves head on. And I think now that decoy baiting is broken that probably isn't the most sustainable approach. But I gotta test and see how well crouched scent baiting with Archery V works. Maybe the solution to the entire predicament is to just hunt everything that moves.

There will still be times you'll have to carry hides anyways in order to get them curing to maintain clothing and your bedroll.  You won't be able to avoid confronting at least some wolves head on some of the time.  ML and CH both connect to the Ravine... which has no wolves, a couple of deer, some rabbits, and lots of birch bark.  To me, it's looking more and more like the best place to settle down to a lower-cal lifestyle... with runs into ML and CH to hunt in the areas that border the Ravine.

[manolitode]

2 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

Thinking about it .... it might indeed be better to beeline to the summit, pick up the PV stuff on the way in and out, and be done with it earlier in the game. That's how I usually do it. This time I lost two days traversing PV once already. I'm pretty sure I'll lose more on the way back.

Another mistake I made was to actually greed for the Signal Fire, for which I even had to go get a hatchet first. All it got me was a surplus hammer and a second Mackinaw, which I will replace in the long run anyways. There really isn't that much of a good reason to go to the Signal Fire on Loper if you actually think about it. Waterfall Cave in and out should be sufficient.

That's kinda my point. Permanently becomes incresingly harder the longer you actually plan to live. If you play loot and scoot, and then retire your survivor once you have done all key locations ... no problem. Just make sure to keep on the move and to not tick too many locations more than once. But if you actually want to go for a 100+ days game you start wondering how sustainable this is. This answer is, probably: it isn't in the long run. Assuming a high octane playstyle (4000 calories / day) you need to shoot a deer every 2 days (average 9kg * 800 calories * 1.25 Cooking V = 9000 calories) on average. That's doable, but only if you keep moving between spots, but yeah - doable.

Indeed, it's sweet to finish PV early, I like to get it over with. Not only for the vast (it's almost cheating) amount of resources but for the psychological satisfaction of being done with the hard part til next replay and have all the other goodies to look forward to. If you carry one heavy load out to CH and one out to ML, summit loot included, you conveniently pass the important buildings on the way out while the riverpaths give you a week or so worth of cattails, starving. 

When you put it like that, 4000 cals doesn't seem like a lot, still it's 3-4 times normal (that daily dose of birch included). I suppose you could also shoot 50 bunnies a week. 

[Guest jeffpeng]

13 minutes ago, manolitodeespana said:

I suppose you could also shoot 50 bunnies a week. 

That amount of bunnies isn't sustainable without mass trapping. Which pretty much ties you to a few key locations. 

[Guest jeffpeng]

54 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

There will still be times you'll have to carry hides anyways in order to get them curing to maintain clothing and your bedroll.

Hides don't smell. That's one good thing. 

55 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

To me, it's looking more and more like the best place to settle down to a lower-cal lifestyle... with runs into ML and CH to hunt in the areas that border the Ravine.

That's my endgame plan for the current run. I have already established a base there. It's just..... meh.... I've played so many games dwelling in that cave it really got old  

[manolitode]

26 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

That amount of bunnies isn't sustainable without mass trapping. Which pretty much ties you to a few key locations. 

Sure, it's just an example to point out the amount of meat required in order to remain well fed in the long run. Settling down where you can hunt, trap and fish would seems ideal and would offer some variation. 

[UpUpAway95]

1 hour ago, jeffpeng said:

Hides don't smell. That's one good thing. 

That's my endgame plan for the current run. I have already established a base there. It's just..... meh.... I've played so many games dwelling in that cave it really got old  

Oops, meant to say hides and guts.  You're right, it's the guts that generate the smell, but one does eventually need fishing tackle to repair items too.

Another alternative is life underground... or is there now a wolf in the Cinder Hills Mine?

[Guest jeffpeng]

44 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Another alternative is life underground..

How would that work?

[manolitode]

On 1/7/2020 at 12:58 PM, jeffpeng said:

Another mistake I made was to actually greed for the Signal Fire, for which I even had to go get a hatchet first. All it got me was a surplus hammer and a second Mackinaw, which I will replace in the long run anyways. There really isn't that much of a good reason to go to the Signal Fire on Loper if you actually think about it. Waterfall Cave in and out should be sufficient.

Made we reconsider how to prioritize in HRV. I usually loot all along the west side of HRV because of it's abundance of cattails and tea ingredients. Looking back this might have been a mistake as I mostly end up wasting a flare in that hilly, hostile part of the map. That, I suppose, is the same as wasting 30kgs of bearmeat later on. Ice cave on the other hand seem like a must as you say, and if absolutely necessary is worth wasting a flare on the Fluff. Still, the shelf on west side is always worth a visit in my opinion. The possible mackinaw, possible moose, possible wolf carcass - useful in early game -, a decent amount of cattails and tea ingredients and only one hostile wolf. Don't usually spend any time whatsoever in the eastern part but I'm likely affected by the time I couldn't climb up from the valley by moose overlook after getting a veteran survivor butted by a moose, having looted and drunk all rose hip teas before and being 2 pain pills short of curing. 

Any other musts in HRV?

[Guest jeffpeng]

11 hours ago, manolitodeespana said:

Any other musts in HRV?

Not that I know of. I usually try to tick the bedroll & hacksaw as that's still fairly rare loot that's good to have, but must have's? I don't think so.