Sleep and or Rest

[nicko]

Wow to me the last updates (v3.27) has changed how we sleep.

I get it somewhat. We sleep until tired then wake up. Then we have to rest for the remainder of hours/night??

Ok sure we rest and spend the extra calories etc. that not the point. we still need X amount of sleep ? min 6-8? .

 

 

[Kris-thepilgrim]

Its strange. I can run a few hours around my house. Gather wood, food and other stuff. And when I go to bed, I sleep for five hours. Then I sit in my bed for other 5 hours and then I sleep an hour again.

I dont understand why I they changed the sleeping routine and then I dont get it why they changed it drastic.

Its unrealistic. Why cant my character stay in bed a day long when he wanted to be? Its annoying staring at the screen when its dark and my character just wanted to sleep for only 3 hours...

[Nasdaq401]

It breaks immersion for me ALOT.  I recently started streaming and I don't even know how to explain what I'm doing.  It turns into a button pushing simulator that is very awkward.  I do like the pass time mechanic, but I think it should be available anywhere you are, and maybe go back to how sleep worked before. 

[piddy3825]

16 hours ago, nicko said:

Wow to me the last updates (v3.27) has changed how we sleep.

I get it somewhat. We sleep until tired then wake up. Then we have to rest for the remainder of hours/night??

Ok sure we rest and spend the extra calories etc. that not the point. we still need X amount of sleep ? min 6-8? .

 

 

Yeah, the clock seems kinda wonky to me, figure you have 10 hours of darkness and 13 hours of daylight, makes 23 right?  so, when your laying awake on your bed waiting for daybreak and it says less than one of darkness left or what ever, (same as at twilight) is that where the other hour gets split up? IDK

Considering that in the absence of strong artificial light, naturally, our bodies would adopt a circadian rhythm in congruence with seasonal lighting differences.  ie, in this scenario we would be easily sleeping 10-12 hours depending on local lighting conditions.  Here's a screen shot of my current pilgrim walkabout, just check out the disparity in hours awake vs hours rested.  under normal  circadian rhythm that time would be fairly equally balanced between hours awake and hours rested somewhere around a 60/40 split in hours. In the game hours, right now its more like 86% wake time vs 14% sleep time.  the only way i can get 10 hours of continuous sleep now, is contract food poisoning from eating raw meat or fish, wash it all down with some reishi tea and sleep the 10 hours of first aid recovery time! lol

[KD7BCH]

12 hours ago, Kris-thepilgrim said:

Its strange. I can run a few hours around my house. Gather wood, food and other stuff. And when I go to bed, I sleep for five hours. Then I sit in my bed for other 5 hours and then I sleep an hour again.

I dont understand why I they changed the sleeping routine and then I dont get it why they changed it drastic.

Its unrealistic. Why cant my character stay in bed a day long when he wanted to be? Its annoying staring at the screen when its dark and my character just wanted to sleep for only 3 hours...

Nothing preventing you from leaving your character in bed as long as you want. The body won't sleep when it has slept recently without drugs because that isn't how sleep and wake chemistry works in the body. What was unrealistic was being able to sleep 36 hours straight before. Now you can stay in bed but you can't sleep for longer than you are tired. If you had a full day of work and you are red line fatigued you can sleep for 8 hours. After 8 hours you will wake up refreshed. If you don't have full health restored and nothing pressing to do, and your health is good and your levels are out of the red, then pass the time resting for a few hours until dawn. 

[polarnomad]

4 hours ago, Nasdaq401 said:

It breaks immersion for me ALOT.  I recently started streaming and I don't even know how to explain what I'm doing.  It turns into a button pushing simulator that is very awkward.  I do like the pass time mechanic, but I think it should be available anywhere you are, and maybe go back to how sleep worked before. 

I agree with you on this.  It didn't bother me at first, but the more I play this new update, the less I see the point of the sleep mechanic forcing us to be completely WIPED out to get 10 hours of sleep.  It is just a nuisance that is making TLD less enjoyable.

If we are talking about realism, during winter in Finland, I have no trouble sleeping longer hours and I do not need to climb cliffsides beforehand either.  In fact, I have a harder time waking up in the morning because of extended darkness.  So, to me this is far from realistic.

If it is about stopping hibernation, some other mechanic should be found.  Just let those who want to spend their time in a dark corner sleeping do it.  If it is about leaderboards, better to include a minimum sleep vs. waking ratio as gatekeeper for access to said leaderboard.

[nicko]

1 hour ago, polarnomad said:

I agree with you on this.  It didn't bother me at first, but the more I play this new update, the less I see the point of the sleep mechanic forcing us to be completely WIPED out to get 10 hours of sleep.  It is just a nuisance that is making TLD less enjoyable.

If we are talking about realism, during winter in Finland, I have no trouble sleeping longer hours and I do not need to climb cliffsides beforehand either.  In fact, I have a harder time waking up in the morning because of extended darkness.  So, to me this is far from realistic.

If it is about stopping hibernation, some other mechanic should be found.  Just let those who want to spend their time in a dark corner sleeping do it.  If it is about leaderboards, better to include a minimum sleep vs. waking ratio as gatekeeper for access to said leaderboard.

Well said, I think the sleep /rest needs a lot more of tweaking!

To me the game has become less fun. why? well now everyday I need to try to do a massive work out of some sort just so I can sleep easily when I go to bed? WTF? I'm no Arnie! lol.

edit: I guess I can just Rest. but sheesh I can do that anytime! I would rather sleep at night.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

Yes can't we have a possibilty to stay in bed without sleep ? We'd have the bonus warm at least. 

[nicko]

6 minutes ago, Vinceofpyrenees said:

Yes can't we have a possibilty to stay in bed without sleep ? We'd have the bonus warm at least. 

Well you can stay in bed, just hit Rest button instead of sleep. All your doing is hibernating then?

Edit: Surely every game mode should have it so you body needs a min 6-10 hours sleep time every day?

[Scyzara]

7 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

In the game hours, right now its more like 86% wake time vs 14% sleep time.  the only way i can get 10 hours of continuous sleep now, is contract food poisoning from eating raw meat or fish, wash it all down with some reishi tea and sleep the 10 hours of first aid recovery time! lol

Thanks for posting the stats screenshot, @piddy3825. Your description and stats seems to confirm what I personally expected to happen regarding the different modes - while Stalker players can still sleep for a more or less "reasonable" amount of time (about 10h/day), Pilgrim players (who don't more or less "automatically" get completely exhausted during the course of the day) wake up after unreasonably short periods of time and thus have to spend the rest of their nights by passing time. I totally understand that this is immersion-breaking for many players.

If someone has a post-tireless menace started 30day+ voyageur game (and an active "normal" playstyle with 2000kcal+ and 2km+ movement per day), it would be great if he or she could post a screenshot of the stat page as well. I'd really love to compare the sleeping/awake times of all three modes and see whether my theory is true and Pilgrim+Voyageur might need a change of their fatigue regeneration mechanics.

Edit:

Attached a screenshot from my current Stalker run to illustrate what I mean. I was "allowed" to sleep 657/1439h in total which equals 45% of the time or in other words: 10h 50min a day. I thus have no issues to sleep through the entire night. I also find an average sleeping time of 10-11h/day quite realistic (given the game's conditions and my character's activities) and believe it adds to the game's credibility and immersion.

Piddy3825, on the other hand, was only "allowed" to sleep 242/1739h which equals 14% of the time or 3,36h/day. Doesn't sound like a good night's sleep for sure. Especially not as his calorie consumption and distance travelled proof that he wasn't hibernating or anything, but played actively. If other Pilgrim and Voyageur players make similar experiences, I think this definitely needs to be looked at.

[Pillock]

I'd always thought that "Tireless Menace" was a reference to the Old Bear in the new Challenges mode. But perhaps it's named after the new sleep mechanics?

[Drifter Man]

4 hours ago, Scyzara said:

If someone has a post-tireless menace started 30day+ voyageur game (and an active "normal" playstyle with 2000kcal+ and 2km+ movement per day), it would be great if he or she could post a screenshot of the stat page as well

It's average 7 hours a day for me after the update (but my game was started in v.302). I usually wake up 3-4 hours before daybreak now. Ca 3160 Cal and 2 to 2.5 km movement per day after the update.

[Vhalkyrie]

I have screenshot stats before the patch. 2200 calories per day, about 2-3km per day on average over 250 days.  I think what might be skewing my fatigue is that I walk everywhere. I don't run unless I have something to run from.  But I rarely fatigued by bedtime, so I have to use pass time a lot so that I have daylight. 

[KD7BCH]

Stalker, Here is mine I do a substantial amount of running places. I try to keep my game days to about 20-30min per day and there is no benefit to walking everywhere. In fact it is usually more beneficial to run some places. Less exposure time, less risk getting caught outside after dark, less risk to enemy action from wolves. Normal ratio for sleeping humans is 1/3 sleep 2/3 awake so 8 hours sleeping 16 hours active. The game doesn't have it modeled too skewed in favor of realism and there is plenty of time to rest/sleep in a day. 

[Pillock]

Here's one from Voyageur, 35 days in.

The hours awake vs asleep has been roughly 60-40 % in favour of waking - so that's 14-10 in terms of hours? I do often find myself trying to fill up the hours of darkness by micro-managing Pass Time and Rest (which really isn't great fun as a gameplay mechanic).

(As an aside, I spotted something in the right-hand column which I'd never noticed before...)

[Dinhammer]

Yeah, drinking unpurified water will give you the trots.  Probably intended to be giardiasis or amoebic dysentery.

 

[Scyzara]

Thanks guys, did a bit of math with your numbers and there definitely seems to be a pattern. (Which is btw also perfectly logical given the current sleeping mechanics and the different fatigue increase rates per one hour of activity X in the different modes.)

KD7BCH (Stalker like me) slept 253/523h = 48% of the time which is 11.5h/day and extremely similar to my own 45% (11h/day). I personally don't run much, guess that's why I exhaust a little slower and am thus allowed to sleep a little less.

Our two Voyageurs (Drifterman and Pillock) were allowed to sleep less than the Stalkers in comparisson. Drifterman said he usually sleeps 7h a day (= 29%) on average, Pillock slept 328/856h = 38% = 9h/day.

@Vhalkyrie: Could you tell us your awake/sleep ratio post-tireless menace (= how many hours does the game allow you to sleep per day if you perform an average level of activity)? The other numbers are only important to make sure I'm comparing more or less similar playstyles and not hibernators with 5000kcal/day marathon runners for this would greatly influence the results as well ofc.

 

If anyone else has a post-tireless menace run with an active "normal" playstyle to share, I'd be happy about further stat screenshots (no matter the mode, data is always welcome^^).

[Vhalkyrie]

I'm not at home so I don't have the screens in front of me to post.  Generally if I go to sleep at 10 hours of darkness, I wake up at 4 hours of darkness.  So about 6 hours with the same play as v.302. I have been using 4 hours of pass time then sleep so I wake up near dawn.

[Pillock]

The odd thing for me is that when I first started playing TLD, I remember being constantly short of sleep, and using herbal tea to improve the quality of my available Rest time and speed up fatigue-recovery.

Now, I don't use herbal tea at all (except as a warming agent) because I find that I don't want to recover from fatigue quicker: I want to allow as long as possible for my sleep so that I'm not having to stumble blindly about in the darkness of night-time, getting colder than I need to be, while not being able to do anything very productive with my character.

I've never been active during the night unless it's been an emergency, and I've always (until yesterday) played on Voyageur. Has the calculation for recovering fatigue been fiddled with to make sleep more effective? Perhaps I just manage that aspect of the character health better now that I have more experience.

The point is, it's a shame that herbal tea's main function in the game is rendered undesirable by players because of the sleep mechanics.

[Vhalkyrie]

Here are my game stats.  The first one is the last one I took from v.302.  I use the journal entries in my story blog, so I have a lot of saved journal data.

This one is from after v.326

Stats in 220 days patch v.302

Establishing that I am not a hibernator:

2997 Hours Awake + 2410 Rested = 5407 Total Hours played
3999 Hours Indoors / 5407 = 74% Indoors
1410 Hours Outdoors / 5407 = 26% Outdoors
2108 average calories per day
722.6 km traveled / 220 days = 3.28 km/day

2997 Awake/5407 = 55% * 24 hours = 13.2 hours awake on average
2410 Sleeping/5407 = 45% * 24 = 10.8 hours sleep on average 

Since 77% of my hours played are pre-patch, my current data is going to be weighted towards that, but you can still notice how the numbers are changing.

Stats in 286 days patch v.326

4015 Hours Awake + 2993 Rested = 7008 Total Hours played

4015 Awake/7008 = 57% * 24 = 13.7 hours awake on average
2993 Rested/7008 = 43% * 24 = 10.3 hours sleep on average

So I am not a hibernator, however, I may not be typical in that I walk 90% of the time and only run in an emergency.  This is a roleplay habit I developed in my Skyrim/Fallout 3 games because one day I realized that  IRL, I only run for exercise, but I walk to my car, the grocery store, to my work, etc.  In game, my character walks unless running from danger.  I believe that my fatigue levels are not the expected behavior in my activities, and thus I am not able to resume 'normal' sleep patterns.  However, I do not believe I should have to be exhausted in order to sleep.

As I mentioned above, if I go to sleep at 10 hours of darkness, I will wake up at 4 hours of darkness, or after 6 hours of sleep.

Like Polarnomad above, I have lived in regions with extended periods of darkness in the winter, and sleeping is not a problem.  Waking up is!

Thanks for collecting this info and following this.  

[polarnomad]

The current sleep mechanic makes it so that neither herbal tea nor coffee are of any real benefit anymore.

Coffee maybe, if you don't have access to stimulants and you are over-burdened.  Then again, over-burdened is a good thing, since it wears you out.  So why bother with coffee?  Just suffer your character's whimpering under an excessive pack and sleep better for it.

But herbal tea?  I have not needed the extra benefits from sleep after Tireless Menace, so I just toss them.  What is the point of having them in the game?

In the last 150 hours of gameplay, I have tried NOT to get worn out so that I could carry as much gear as possible.  However, the recent updates make it so that getting worn out is a MUST.  5 extra kilos too much to carry?  Sounds good, maybe now I won't have to pass time on my bedroll before dawn.  "What?  You don't like it?  You want me to drop some gear?  Hell, no!  If I do, we'll just end up twiddling our fingers for 4 hours until sunrise, so suck it up."  I don't want to have this kind of exchange with my character.  It is counter-productive.

Stims are also over-powered, since they both give you a boost AND wear you out.  Need to do something last minute?  Use a stim, you'll sleep better.  They are advertised as a positive with a negative effect, but really they are a double-positive.  You get to overwork yourself, perform a super-human feat, and then crash like a baby (almost).

The one time I found a stim to be really useful was when I got stuck between two ropes in a blizzard and had stupidly left my bedroll on the top, and thus could not rest to recover my stamina.   Used my stim, got to the top, slept until I woke up, but unfortunately waaay before dawn... again.

(As a side note: I love this game.  I think Hinterland is working magic.  The only reason I object so adamantly is because I feel the magic is fading due to the current sleep mechanic, and I wish it wouldn't.  And please believe me, I thought long and hard about whether to post this or not.  I realize how much work you are doing.  I hate telling you this doesn't work for me.  Of course, that's just me.)

[Nasdaq401]

18 hours ago, Pillock said:

I'd always thought that "Tireless Menace" was a reference to the Old Bear in the new Challenges mode. But perhaps it's named after the new sleep mechanics?

This made me LOL.  It really is bad. It gets worse for me every time I pick up the game and stream.  I find myself telling my followers on my stream more and more aggravating things about it.  It's pretty bad and not very well thought out.  It should be available anywhere, and 2nd made the game much less seamless and very awkward. 

[Drifter Man]

I do not see an advantage in wearing myself out without purpose, because the amount of calories spent in the process is probably greater than the amount of calories saved by sleeping more (compared to standing at the bed). I usually take 2-3 hours of "pass time" before daybreak and then sleep for around 1 more hour to be fully rested. It does break the flow of the game, otherwise I don't mind much.

[Scyzara]

8 hours ago, polarnomad said:

However, the recent updates make it so that getting worn out is a MUST.  5 extra kilos too much to carry?  Sounds good, maybe now I won't have to pass time on my bedroll before dawn.  "What?  You don't like it?  You want me to drop some gear?  Hell, no!  If I do, we'll just end up twiddling our fingers for 4 hours until sunrise, so suck it up." 

Well, just remember that running around overloaded on purpose is a two-edged sword. While it indeed wears you out faster, it also increases your chances to sprain an ankle or get attacked by a wolf (even despite dropping a decoy or using a flare). Being exhausted or having a sprained ankle will also prevent you from climbing ropes (a fact mainly important for people living in TWM).

So I wouldn't recommend constant overweight as a real "solution" to the problem (except maybe for Pilgrim players who don't live in TWM). If you seek a way to exhaust your character completely in the evening, my advise would be rope climbing (as a temporary workaround). Twice up and down and your character should be exhausted.^^

Regarding stimpaks: Well, they're rather scarce (yeah, I know, a pretty relative term) so using them just to exhaust your character on purpose every evening isn't feasible imo. I think your example with the rope was a really good one as it shows the intended purpose of stimpaks: To get your character out of a potentially lethal emergency situation. Another one would be getting spotted by three wolves at once while exhausted and at low condition. Using a stimpak to run away from them will likely save your hide in this case as well. For me personally, the "sleeping bonus" is the cherry on top of the cake, nothing more. 

Last, but not least I agree that a further decrease of the resting time by herbal tea isn't really desirable any more in most cases. I think herbal tea could thus benefit from a rework to make it increase the player's health regeneration per hour of sleep instead.

 

@everyone: I definitely understand your complaints about not being allowed by the game to sleep through the night and I agree that average sleeping times of less than 10h/day are neither immersive nor do they benefit the game's micromanagement. 

I'll write a PM to Raphael about it, but it's well-possible that he's already aware of the problem anyway and has the team working on further tweaks. 

[piddy3825]

20 hours ago, Vhalkyrie said:

 In game, my character walks unless running from danger.  I believe that my fatigue levels are not the expected behavior in my activities, and thus I am not able to resume 'normal' sleep patterns.  However, I do not believe I should have to be exhausted in order to sleep.

Like Polarnomad above, I have lived in regions with extended periods of darkness in the winter, and sleeping is not a problem.  Waking up is!

9 hours ago, Scyzara said:

...If you seek a way to exhaust your character completely in the evening, my advise would be rope climbing (as a temporary workaround). Twice up and down and your character should be exhausted.^^Regarding stimpaks: Well, they're rather scarce (yeah, I know, a pretty relative term) so using them just to exhaust your character on purpose every evening isn't feasible imo.

I too "walk" rather than run 95% of the time.  As a result of not being able to sleep I recently started running as much as I could in order to get "exhausted."  I've also stopped chopping branches with the hatchet and only break them by hand which eats up time and calories, seemingly helps to tire me more readily as well. Climbing the rope takes a lot out of you as well, particularly if climb up over encumbered. But even then, I too only get 6 hours straight sleep at best.

However I do a know a sure fire way to guarantee you 10 hours of sleep regardless of condition, time of day, etc... Food Poisoning!  eat anything raw... anything...  used to be you could eat a piece of raw meat from a fresh kill and not get food poisoning...  but not since the last updates.  I accidently gave myself food poisoning when i mistakenly clicked on the raw piece of rabbit in my inventory instead of the cooked piece, lol.  Best nights sleep ever!