Water Mechanics

[Ohbal]

I have a few thoughts about this mechanics that I'd like to share to see what the other survivors think 

1. Why not making it a passive task? I understand collecting the snow to melt requires active time from my character, but why do I stare at the flames for hours while the snow melts / boils? I could be doing stuff while this happens, like crafting, sleeping, organizing the inventory, or just leave the place to explore. This could be displayed by a timer when you look at the fire (water boiling - time remaining: 2 hours).

2. Water storage: I really don't like the free bottle mechanic here. I think the resource management could get a boost if we would depend on real containers to storage our water in. Things we need to collect, instead of magically appearing in our inventory. 

3. Water collection from Waterfalls. Make it risky (falling, for example), make it so you get wet while doing this, so hypothermia risk.  

 

[Vhalkyrie]

I'd like to be able to collect non-potable water from chipping ice in the fishing huts.  I have all these water tablets, but I never need to use them because there isn't anywhere to collect non-potable water.  They all degrade away, and I never have a situation in which I need to use them.

[elloco999]

I agree that the current melting/ boiling mechanism is not optimal. I don't know how it could be improved in a way that would make it not tedious but also not staring at a stove for hour after in-game hour.

I would also like to see a better way to store water. We should be able to find (and craft?) containers that we can use to store water. But this might be making things too difficult at the start of a new game, especially for inexperienced players.

13 minutes ago, Vhalkyrie said:

I'd like to be able to collect non-potable water from chipping ice in the fishing huts.  I have all these water tablets, but I never need to use them because there isn't anywhere to collect non-potable water.  They all degrade away, and I never have a situation in which I need to use them.

There are some sources of none potable water, like the bowls of water that can be found around the gas station in CH. And of course you could always melt snow and then purify the water using the tablets to safe wood (and time, which is strange because it takes more time to purify water using tablets in stead of boiling IRL).

[Vhalkyrie]

I've never had a situation in which I needed to save wood for boiling.  If I have 30 minutes of wood, I boil one 1 liter.  If I have 60 minutes, I boil 2 liters.  It is always possible to find at least 10 sticks for 60 minutes.  The only water I found in CH was potable.  But even if I did, I'd probably boil it anyway.  I've never found any non-potable water.  The tablets are a waste - I never carry them.  I'd just like for them to be useful.

[elloco999]

Well, I have found non-potable water before. But I don't use the tablets either, I have a fire often enough that any non-potable water I might have can be boiled.

But that's also true for any water obtained from waterfall's, fishing holes or from chipping ice. I would probably still not use the tablets no matter how many sources for non-potable water there would be.

[Vhalkyrie]

I probably would.  As a backpack camper, I would definitely keep it in my pack. If I could collect water from a fishing hole, there are cases when I might want to use a tablet.   However, since I've never found enough sources of non potable water, there's no point in bringing it because I have to start a fire anyway.  

[Ohbal]

40 minutes ago, Vhalkyrie said:

 I have all these water tablets, but I never need to use them because there isn't anywhere to collect non-potable water.  They all degrade away, and I never have a situation in which I need to use them.

Agree, kind of a dull item atm. I use them when I see them on red condition, cause I don't like to throw anything away, but I've never really needed them. 

25 minutes ago, elloco999 said:

I agree that the current melting/ boiling mechanism is not optimal. I don't know how it could be improved in a way that would make it not tedious but also not staring at a stove for hour after in-game hour.

I would also like to see a better way to store water. We should be able to find (and craft?) containers that we can use to store water. But this might be making things too difficult at the start of a new game, especially for inexperienced players.

In This War of Mine, the water collection and purifying process is handled by a timer. You trigger the action, then 4 hours later, you are done. This could be a way to do it. 

Regarding the toll on new players... it could be handled by having 2 liter storage at start. That bottle you start with could last for, I don't know, 10, 20 days, then it starts decaying. Same principle could be used for all water storage containers: some would last for longer, others could be just temporary solutions. 

We could limit the hazards in this game to:

- Wildlife: you need tools that degrade to handle this safely

- Weather: you need clothes that degrade to handle this

- Food: you need to find the food first, and it degrades

- Water: you need to collect it, then it lasts forever. I may have sprained my ankles and wrists several times, which means I'm falling, but I never lose water, nor the bottles, nor the crafter teas / coffees... 

Of all hazards, I think the water one is currently the easiest to cope with. Challenge here could be made harder, imo. 

[Dirmagnos]

Gathering water from waterfalls would make you wet, fast. That thin layer of fast-accumulating mist that would set on clothes and then freeze. Brrr.

And water bottle that decays in 20 days would be just nonsense. Plastic takes hundreds of years to degrade.

Most items in game already degrade at pace that tens, if not hundreds times faster, than it is in real life. Imo focus should be on ease of obtaining items, not speed of degradation.

[Ohbal]

2 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Gathering water from waterfalls would make you wet, fast. That thin layer of fast-accumulating mist that would set on clothes and then freeze. Brrr.

And water bottle that decays in 20 days would be just nonsense. Plastic takes hundreds of years to degrade.

Most items in game already degrade at pace that tens, if not hundreds times faster, than it is in real life. Imo focus should be on ease of obtaining items, not speed of degradation.

Oh man, I really hate when a suggestion aiming to affect a gameplay mechanic gets countered by a IRL mechanic. But I'll play... 

I already mentioned that collecting water from waterfalls would imply you getting wet and risking hypotermia, so I guess we agree on that

The plastic water may not degrade (as fast) IRL, but:

1. They break. Yeah, put one in your backpack, with the rest of sharp equipment (fishing lines, knives, hatchets...) then fall on your backpack. That would break the bottle, at least from time to time, right? Get that plastic bottle too close to the fire, and it melts away, right? Put boiling water on them (as we do now), they deteriorate or melt, right? So yeah, plastic water bottles do break IRL.  

2. Drinking from the same plastic bottle is really bad for your health. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/reuse-plastic-water-bottle_n_5671681.html

Long term solutions for water storage are usually not made from a thin layer of plastic. Those are just temporary solutions.  

As a last note, I really hope that item degradation in TLD is based on gameplay reasons rather than realistic ones. The game needs to work. The game needs to be challenging. And the game does not reflect real life, just parts of it, so it needs to have its own set of rules for the design to make sense. The realism argument cannot ever play against the basic gameplay mechanics. 

[exeexe]

I like the mechanics about the water falls. But water is so easy to collect that you wouldnt go to the water fall in the first place. So something could be looked into that, maybe make it harder to collect water?

Or maybe give the water from waterfalls a boost (because its full of minerals or something) Like if you drink waterfall water then for the next 10 days an infection starts with 30% instead of 50% or something?
http://thelongdark.wikia.com/wiki/Afflictions
 

Quote

The initial chance is 50%. This chance increases by 5% every hour. After 16 hours, infection will randomly be applied with the potential chance being the final infection risk percentage at this time.

 

Maybe a fire needs a certain temperature before it can boil water? Like maybe it should feel like 10C? So if the temperature is -30C, you need a fire to give 40C in order to make water. But you can always melt water.

Another thing the game could have is when sleeping inside, like in my rules, you need to make 4 liters of water for hygiene? I have tested it and it works good. Its hard though if you dont have a hatchet.

[Ohbal]

Water is easy to collect now, but also time consuming and boring. It wouldn't be so easy if we didn't have unlimited plastic bottles to store it in. 

I like the temperature rule for boiling, kind of makes sense. Same thing could happen to cooking!

I think collected water from waterfalls or fishing holes doesn't need to change to make this worth it. It would be faster than boiling (an active task, so it will take more time from the player but not from the day in game) at the cost of risking hypotermia. 

[hauteecolerider]

An alternative to plastic bottles (which magically appear every time I melt/boil water, but oh well) would be deer and bear bladders. Cleaned and encased in either deerskin or bearskin for protection against snags, a bladder would be a great way to hold water for a day or two. Well-rinsed, it would be sterile and clean. Stomachs are an alternative, but I prefer to stick with bladders. Of course the bladder would have to be replaced every so often . . .

[Axe]

Obtaining water:
I can appreciate the fact that some people would like water to be more of a challenge, but you have to realize that you are not stranded in a desert or on an island. You are literally walking around in frozen water, as long as this is the backdrop for the game, water is going to be easy to get. Besides you already need to make a fire just to obtain water, it's already costing time and resources and in its current state is a slow steady drain on your resources, making water any harder to obtain is just silly. Honestly people don't typically die from dehydration in that part of the world, I know this is a game but it still has to be at least somewhat believable.

Water storage:
Water being stored in magically appearing bottles, now there's something that can be looked at. If you can only store water in containers you've collected then you have another variable to consider in that you can't just use all the excess heat (time) from you fire to make extra water, which means you'd have to calculate more carefully how much wood you burn because you only have so many bottles to store a certain amount of water in at a time. This model supports more careful resource management.

Purifying tablets:
I agree that the purifying tablets aren't really useful, melting snow and boiling water is so easy its hardly worthwhile, also there are so few sources of non-potable water available in game that it makes this item obsolete.

[Ohbal]

49 minutes ago, Axe said:

Obtaining water:
I can appreciate the fact that some people would like water to be more of a challenge, but you have to realize that you are not stranded in a desert or on an island. You are literally walking around in frozen water, as long as this is the backdrop for the game, water is going to be easy to get. Besides you already need to make a fire just to obtain water, it's already costing time and resources and in its current state is a slow steady drain on your resources, making water any harder to obtain is just silly. Honestly people don't typically die from dehydration in that part of the world, I know this is a game but it still has to be at least somewhat believable.

Water storage:
Water being stored in magically appearing bottles, now there's something that can be looked at. If you can only store water in containers you've collected then you have another variable to consider in that you can't just use all the excess heat (time) from you fire to make extra water, which means you'd have to calculate more carefully how much wood you burn because you only have so many bottles to store a certain amount of water in at a time. This model supports more careful resource management.

Purifying tablets:
I agree that the purifying tablets aren't really useful, melting snow and boiling water is so easy its hardly worthwhile, also there are so few sources of non-potable water available in game that it makes this item obsolete.

Hey Axe

I haven't proposed to make the water harder to get, more on the contrary! The challenge, I'd rather put it on storage and transportation. I'm particularly bothered by the infinite water bottle mechanic. I completely agree that in the current season, obtaining the water should not be the problem, at all. 

Oh, and the fresh new roadmap is considering the change on cooking-boiling water mechanics to make it passive... so woho! That was one quick granted wish 

 

 

 

[cekivi]

Personally I'm fine with "magic bottles" for now. It reduces the entry level for new players and it is one less thing to micromanage. In real life there would be enough bottles, containers, etc laying around that I wouldn't see this being much of an issue except maybe on Timberwolf Mountain.

I agree that the purification tablets are a bit useless as they are currently. I think I've only used them twice. If you could harvest dirty water from ice fishing holes than maybe they'd have a purpose again. Chip ice, get water, make it drinkable.

Harvesting from waterfalls is a bad idea. It would be far too easy to slip in and if that happens you are toast. It is not a risk most people would take especially when surrounded by snow. Maybe in the spring or fall but not in winter.

Lastly, I agree that melting snow and boiling water should be a passive activity on stoves. You should be able to just put the pot on the stove, stoke the fire and just come back to check on it every so often as you warm up, repair your clothes, read a book, etc. Keeping a pot boiling on an outdoor fire or fireplace would be more work as you'd need to be repositioning logs and embers to ensure your pot stays hot enough to boil.

[Fuarian]

Hinterland has recently confirmed that in the next coming months a feature like this would be added. Check the roadmap.

[Vhalkyrie]

Harvesting from waterfalls is a bad,bad idea.  IRL if you tried to do this, you could slip on wet rocks.  Not a good plan.

With the new cooking mechanic, I wonder if I could burn my steak if I leave it for too long? 

[nicko]

I like the idea of latest roadmap. Moving water.

http://hinterlandgames.com/the-long-dark/roadmap/

[Dirmagnos]

On 4/4/2016 at 4:48 PM, Ohbal said:

Oh man, I really hate when a suggestion aiming to affect a gameplay mechanic gets countered by a IRL mechanic. But I'll play...

The plastic water may not degrade (as fast) IRL, but:

1. They break. Yeah, put one in your backpack, with the rest of sharp equipment (fishing lines, knives, hatchets...) then fall on your backpack. That would break the bottle, at least from time to time, right? Get that plastic bottle too close to the fire, and it melts away, right? Put boiling water on them (as we do now), they deteriorate or melt, right? So yeah, plastic water bottles do break IRL.  

2. Drinking from the same plastic bottle is really bad for your health. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/reuse-plastic-water-bottle_n_5671681.html

Long term solutions for water storage are usually not made from a thin layer of plastic. Those are just temporary solutions.  

As a last note, I really hope that item degradation in TLD is based on gameplay reasons rather than realistic ones. The game needs to work. The game needs to be challenging. And the game does not reflect real life, just parts of it, so it needs to have its own set of rules for the design to make sense. The realism argument cannot ever play against the basic gameplay mechanics. 

By what else could they be countered ? Everything that we may proposes is based on our experience from real world. Sure, there is an option to make absurd proposals that they will be countered by other absurd proposals, and it will result in all out flame war, since neither side have any basis to their argumentation, and convincing any1 or anything would be impossible as result, since there is no logic or common sense involved.

Plastic bottles do break fairly easily if you are not careful. And player is completely inept with organizing his backpack, so that sharp objects are sticking everywhere, then broken bottles would be the least of his problems. With proper organization and a bit of common sense, plastic bottles can last for a long long long time. And considering situation that protagonist is in, hes probably quite careful. Im not exactly a pro camper, but i never had any problems organizing my backpack, to keep sharp and pointy things away from items that could be damaged by them. All it takes is a bit common sense - you dont throw dirty dishes into a washer from across the kitchen, or what ?

And that article is about importance of keeping your cutlery clean, that applies to pretty much everything. Millions(if not billions) people all around the world, reuse all kind of plastic bottles and containers all the time and often for extended periods of time, without any adverse side effects.

Sure, having proper canteens would be better, but in present situation plastic bottles would do just fine.

Also keep in mind, that inventory in game is generic. As you can have a rifle in your inventory, yet still use it without needing to take it out. Not to mention question of how it fit there to begin with. Knife and hatchet are probably holstered and carried on the belt or attached to the backpack, rifle in on the back, as well as bow, etc

Every design starts in reality, and then adjusted based on need. And the more artistic liberties game developer take, the harder it would be to make a good game. Because you have no origin point for balance. So unless certain aspects of design cannot be made relatively realistic for gameplay purposes, it rarely a good idea to to just randomly add stuff. And realism argument is the only one that can be used, since anything fictional has no basis and will simply result in flame wars, where each side just thinks out completely random "arguments" and throws at opponents. If there are no rules, then there cant be any order.

For example you wannt an option to collect water from waterfalls. If we discard realism as starting point, i can say that you cant because there is no water. After all, its a GAME, so i can claim whatever i wannt.

[Dirmagnos]

23 hours ago, exeexe said:

Maybe a fire needs a certain temperature before it can boil water? Like maybe it should feel like 10C? So if the temperature is -30C, you need a fire to give 40C in order to make water. But you can always melt water.

I dont even know how to call it. Its basic physics. Water boiling temperature is around 100C. Fire from burning wood generates over 1000C. It has 0 importance how it feels, unless were changing laws of thermodynamics.

[Ohbal]

Don't really have anything else to say mate, and the last thing I want to get into today is a flame war

In my book, gameplay mechanics are not taken from Real Life. ideas may serve as inspiration, sure, but that's about it. 

Mechanics in game (again, in my book, and I completely respect you have a book of your own) need to answer to gameplay needs. 

Is my opinion that the water management is lacking in TLD. Its too easy to get water and to store water. I don't pretent to have a solution that would work for everybody, either. 

[Dirmagnos]

Remaking boiling/melting mechanics is a great idea.

Amount of water meltable/boilable could have certain limit, based on available cutlery. Also being able to both melt and boil at the same time, if player has several containers. Melting times should be greatly reduced. And both melting and boiling time should have far more realistic scale - boiling 2 liters of water instead of 1 liter should not take twice the time. In addition, if water is left boiling for 2 long it would start to evaporate rapidly.

[Dirmagnos]

7 minutes ago, Ohbal said:

Mechanics in game (again, in my book, and I completely respect you have a book of your own) need to answer to gameplay needs. 

Is my opinion that the water management is lacking in TLD. Its too easy to get water and to store water. I don't pretent to have a solution that would work for everybody, either. 

True, and my book is bigger than yours 8), gameplay must come first. Question is do certain features serve any good for that gameplay, or are they there for their own sake because better solution havent been found ? And was there a problem in the first place to begin with ?

Water mechanics in the game are iffy, granted. On one hand its easy to melt and boil water in more than sufficient amounts. On the other, you have to actually boil melted snow for whatever reasons, not to mention that you are surrounded by pretty much unlimited amount of it. So in the end, id say that one compensates for another.

As already mentioned by @cekivi water would not be an issue in current situation to begin with.

[Pillock]

I would have no problem with the game requiring you to have a receptacle for boiling/cooking in. What am I doing at the moment - boiling water in a plastic bottle? Holding it over the fire in my hands until it boils? What?

Don't seem right to me. And I remember thinking the same when I was in my first ever play-through, so I don't think the "It would be too hard for new players" argument is valid here. The game is supposed to be hard.

Maybe you could start off with a mess tin, or something, and later be able to find higher-capacity pots/pans/buckets. I also think you should need containers to carry water in and not be able to carry more water than you have containers for. I find it incredibly odd that I can melt snow while inside a building where there is no snow to hand. Would forcing players to collect snow manually be so bad?

I don't think anyone - especially not new players who don't know any different - would complain about this, purely because it makes intuitive sense and feels more believable / less gamey.

[cekivi]

There are issues with the current mechanics and they'll hopefully be improved with the improved cooking roadmap item though. I wouldn't be overly concerned with realism though. In an outdoor setting, you can eat snow for water during the day to help you cool off and avoid overheating. Snow, especially freshly fallen, wouldn't be dirty nor require purification. Taking a Ziploc back, putting snow in it and wearing it in your jacket until it melts would work as well as melting on a fire. 

So, I agree, there are strange elements to how water is handled now but what's missing is just as weird. On a whole, if the only thing changed is requiring a pot and allowing you to do other tasks while waiting I'll be very satisfied.