I wish cabin fever was removed as a gameplay "feature"

[UpUpAway95]

4 hours ago, ridankrad said:

What you did IRL to cure cabin fever is quite different than in TLD. What you describe sounds like the effects of isolation which you cured by spending time with people. That makes perfect sense. But in TLD survivor mode, there's no one left. Hence my earlier suggestion to make non-skill books a resource since they are a window back to a time when other people existed and might offer a reprieve to the survivor's state of mind. I also suggested that staying active (e.g. crafting, cooking, etc.) should be treated differently than just passing time aimlessly. What do you think of these ideas?

The player cannot read with any of the afflictions.  In game premise is that the character cannot concentrate sufficiently to do so.  I think if they allow reading during cabin fever (regardless of whether it's just skill books or other books - and you know my opinion about opening up too many skill points), they are going to get barraged with requests to allow it for any affliction and then "you're never too tired to read" requests, etc.  Then I would suggest it would get to the point where having a reading mechanic in the game at all is pretty pointless... might as well just give skill ups for actually doing the tasks instead.

[UpUpAway95]

6 minutes ago, Kranium said:

Broken ribs make sense. Cabin fever doesn't.

Perhaps they should just give it some fanciful "zombie apocalyse" sort of name like some games do with a variety of afflictions... disassociating if from an IRL disorder but maintaining what it asks of the player to keep track of in the game to avoid it.  It makes sense to encourage players to not spend all their time indoors and teach them about other alternatives for doing tasks normally thought to be indoor ones (like crafting).

Aurora Fever - you get suddenly if you refuse to go outside during an aurora (for example).

Edited April 4, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[Kranium]

I'm sure there's a way to point players in the direction the devs want, without resorting to using such a blunt & nonsensical instrument. I've had an idea or two about that before, I'll hafta search my memory banks later.

[Moosemaster]

2 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

The player cannot read with any of the afflictions.  In game premise is that the character cannot concentrate sufficiently to do so.  I think if they allow reading during cabin fever (regardless of whether it's just skill books or other books - and you know my opinion about opening up too many skill points), they are going to get barraged with requests to allow it for any affliction and then "you're never too tired to read" requests, etc.  Then I would suggest it would get to the point where having a reading mechanic in the game at all is pretty pointless... might as well just give skill ups for actually doing the tasks instead.

That is also a reason this would not work. One of the many symptoms of cabin fever is difficulty concentration so unless our character has the mildest version of cabin fever possible (yes the symptoms he has are the mildest possible) reading would not help

[Lexilogo]

On 4/3/2023 at 12:45 PM, UpUpAway95 said:

I still don't think that a feature that can be so easily turned off should be such a big problem.

Custom difficulty settings are good to have, but are never an excuse for bad game design features, especially when they are on by default. They're only relevant in discussions of Cabin Fever to let people know it can be turned off, not to defend it.

On 4/3/2023 at 12:45 PM, UpUpAway95 said:

It's not something that just randomly hits the player out of the blue.

Unless you haven't actually trawled the game's wiki. If you are playing TLD organically, Cabin Fever is extremely unintuitive for a bunch of reasons:

• As far as I know, the game has no warning Cabin Fever is coming- I don't remember off the top of my head if there is even a loading screen tip about it
• The invisible Cabin Fever grace period depending on difficulty has no info on it and is likely to confuse players as to what they've suddenly been doing differently
• There's no indication that Cabin Fever is a weeklong tracker, as opposed to an invisible meter or etc
• There's no indication of what does and does not count as outside to the point where even veteran players are frequently confused as to the exceptions. HOW is any player on Earth supposed to realize that the inside of a car, the interior of a fishing hut, or the inside of a cave counts as "outdoors", but numerous other interiors in the outdoor zone don't?

On 4/4/2023 at 12:09 AM, UpUpAway95 said:

and only avoiding long crafting session indoors

This is an odd thing for Hinterland to ask players to do, when they designed the crafting system that usually requires you to be indoors to do it and incentivises long crafting sessions

17 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

You could go off to the Ravine ... and never have to worry about a predator

If we agree going outdoors doesn't provide any consistent game design threat to players (especially when, Ravine aside, numerous other spots essentially provide all the benefits of being indoors while counting as outdoors) what is the point of a mechanic that disables timeskipping if it doesn't provide such a consistent game design challenge, besides annoying the hell out of people via disabling timeskipping?

16 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

IDK why... broken ribs are irritating, last longer, and do a lot to "pidgeon-hole" the player's gameplay

Broken Ribs are definitely the most dangerous status effect in the game (besides arguably frostbite's permanent consequences) but there are two important differences:

• In application, Broken Ribs are very clear about the fact they are a rare status effect granted by failing a very specific task (hunting moose) as opposed to being implemented very specifically to shut down a method of play (which, for the record, is not always bad)
• In consequence, Broken Ribs present you with a dangerous gameplay scenario and ask you to use some medicine and survive it for ~5 days. While being forced to survive in a zone you might prefer to leave definitely takes away player agency (as do most meaningful consequences in videogames) there are plenty of ways players can handle it because, well, it's still TLD survival, it's simply a travel restriction. By disabling timeskipping, Cabin Fever inherently cuts off part of the foundation of TLD's survival mechanics

10 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

you make the choices over the previous 6 days of gameplay that lead to the risk visibly climbing to 100%

No, you make choices over the previous ~5 days without any transparency on the mechanic then Cabin Fever Risk pops up

10 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

As far as being completely unable to pass time... not true... start to break down something and then cancel it.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Lexilogo
(removed an extra "a")

[UpUpAway95]

17 hours ago, diggity said:

Once I spent all day and night at the Riken forge making arrowheads.  When done I went to sleep at the top of the ship, in the little bridge/helm room.  That should technically be outside -  I went outside to get there, had to climb the steps,  didn't have to open a door to get in, therefore it's outside.  Still got cabin fever.  Wasn't happy.

That portion of the ship is indoors (you go through a loading screen to exit to the deck; and if you try to start a fire in that area, you'll get the message that you can't start a fire indoors).

Edited April 5, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[UpUpAway95]

12 hours ago, Lexilogo said:

Custom difficulty settings are good to have, but are never an excuse for bad game design features, especially when they are on by default. They're only relevant in discussions of Cabin Fever to let people know it can be turned off, not to defend it.

Unless you haven't actually trawled the game's wiki. If you are playing TLD organically, Cabin Fever is extremely unintuitive for a bunch of reasons:

• As far as I know, the game has no warning Cabin Fever is coming- I don't remember off the top of my head if there is even a loading screen tip about it
• The invisible Cabin Fever grace period depending on difficulty has no info on it and is likely to confuse players as to what they've suddenly been doing differently
• There's no indication that Cabin Fever is a weeklong tracker, as opposed to an invisible meter or etc
• There's no indication of what does and does not count as outside to the point where even veteran players are frequently confused as to the exceptions. HOW is any player on Earth supposed to realize that the inside of a car, the interior of a fishing hut, or the inside of a cave counts as "outdoors", but numerous other interiors in the outdoor zone don't?

This is an odd thing for Hinterland to ask players to do, when they designed the crafting system that usually requires you to be indoors to do it and incentivises long crafting sessions

If we agree going outdoors doesn't provide any consistent game design threat to players (especially when, Ravine aside, numerous other spots essentially provide all the benefits of being indoors while counting as outdoors) what is the point of a mechanic that disables timeskipping if it doesn't provide such a consistent game design challenge, besides annoying the hell out of people via disabling timeskipping?

Broken Ribs are definitely the most dangerous status effect in the game (besides arguably frostbite's permanent consequences) but there are two important differences:

• In application, Broken Ribs are very clear about the fact they are a rare status effect granted by failing a very specific task (hunting moose) as opposed to being implemented very specifically to shut down a method of play (which, for the record, is not always bad)
• In consequence, Broken Ribs present you with a dangerous gameplay scenario and ask you to use some medicine and survive it for ~5 days. While being forced to survive in a zone you might prefer to leave definitely takes away player agency (as do most meaningful consequences in videogames) there are plenty of ways players can handle it because, well, it's still TLD survival, it's simply a travel restriction. By disabling timeskipping, Cabin Fever inherently cuts off part of the foundation of TLD's survival mechanics

No, you make choices over the previous ~5 days without any transparency on the mechanic then Cabin Fever Risk pops up

LMAO - Do you always get your jimmies in such a knot whenever people merely disagree with your negative take on things.  I'm OK with the game mechanic as it is... I have never had a problem with it or figuring it out when I was new at the game (without the Wiki, BTW).

Sheesh - an you accuse me of being "passive agressive."

[Lexilogo]

5 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Sheesh - an you accuse me of being "passive agressive."

Wait, sorry, did I do that? Apologies if so, years of Internet living has jaded me and probably made my tone of speaking in argument a bit nasty.

Rest assured, I really don't mean ill will, I just like dunking on silly things, and I think Cabin Fever is silly haha

[UpUpAway95]

21 hours ago, Moosemaster said:

That is also a reason this would not work. One of the many symptoms of cabin fever is difficulty concentration so unless our character has the mildest version of cabin fever possible (yes the symptoms he has are the mildest possible) reading would not help

That's one reason I thought maybe people would prefer it to be called something else - something not associated with an actual health issue.  There doesn't seem to be as strong a reaction against the insomnia being caused by the fanicful "glimmer fog" despite the fact that it comes on suddenly due to pure RNG (which is a thing I don't like about illnesses in other survival games) and there is only one place you can go in the entire Far Territory to get out of the way of the "glimmer fog."

So, if they changed things up such that it isn't supposed to make any sort of sense and to top it all off comes on totally at random... but still makes people go outside to play... maybe that would put to rest a lot of the complaints about it.  (Since, 24-hours outdoors in this game is not an unreasonable consequence as it is far less onerous than 1 week not being able to climb a rope.)  The only thing remaining is the "math" of the mechanic that lets a person know they are building up their risk of cabin fever over time.  I think a lot of players simply don't understand it or they overthink it.  So, the easiest way to simplify it is to take away the warning of it building up altogether... a la FO4 style... some days you just go to sleep and wake up with an infection.

Bottom line on reading - it's not something we can do when we have any illness... so I simply disagree with making cabin fever an exception to that.

Edited April 5, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[ridankrad]

20 minutes ago, Lexilogo said:

Wait, sorry, did I do that? Apologies if so, years of Internet living has jaded me and probably made my tone of speaking in argument a bit nasty.

Rest assured, I really don't mean ill will, I just like dunking on silly things, and I think Cabin Fever is silly haha

For what it's worth, I don't think your tone was hostile or passive aggressive. It was a lengthy post and used emphasis in a lot of places (plus a meme, but I assumed that was meant tongue in cheek), but overall it seems like a well-reasoned explanation of the various issues with CF. Then again, I'm also critical of CF so I may be biased.

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by ridankrad

[hozz1235]

2 words:  Custom Game

[odizzido]

Custom games are how I tried to get into the game, but in the end there was too many things like cabin fever which make no sense so I just don't play.

But yes cabin fever is one of those "what the?" things. That along with clothing not working in a sane way, meat rotting in -20 degree weather somehow, you spraining every limb just walking down a hill, the fact that you can't even sleep a full night without taking thirst damage despite drinking as much as possible the night before, houses being magically warm, etc etc etc.

Anyways I am still looking forward to the story part of the game when it comes out of early access. A good atmosphere and story can make up for a lot.

[Lexilogo]

10 hours ago, hozz1235 said:

2 words:  Custom Game

I think I should explain myself a bit more as my previous counter to the Custom Game argument was more of an authoritative statement rather than an in-depth argument.

Customisation options do not negate bad game design features, because at the end of the day, game design is about creating an enjoyable set of rules. That's why, despite most TTRPGs having the caveat "the GM can override these rules at any time", they still have dozens and dozens of books dedicated to the pursuit of the best possible set of default rules. (and why the playerbase still don't like bad design decisions made to the default rules)

Customisation options are great when you can't satisfy an entire playerbase, and so need to give them multiple choices. (eg. it's not like Celeste's Assist Mode is in the game because the platforming mechanics are unfair. They're in the game because players don't all come to a game in equal condition) But using customisation to defend bad game design is cowardice on behalf of the designer, and is no different from arguments like "well, if you think that's overpowered, just don't use it".

 

While Cabin Fever is a unique problem, if it's any consolation to Hinterland, I think it's pretty comparable to a mechanic Don't Starve Together implemented, Disease.

Klei had the guts to admit that, yes, even though Disease could also be turned off in the settings, that wasn't an excuse for it remaining in the game, especially as a setting that was on by default. Practically the entire playerbase recommended turning it off, and servers that forgot to often found their farms destroyed by the mechanic with little warning. (coincidentally, Disease is also a mechanic that targets the player after ~50 days and is designed to disrupt the consistency of a player's base)

When they reworked farming, they simply removed it, and the playerbase was overjoyed about it, because it was badly designed and it was one less landmine for new players to quit the game over. Even if you think Cabin Fever is a fine mechanic, would you actually miss it if it was deleted?

Edited April 6, 2023 by Lexilogo
added a clarification bracket to the mention of TTRPGs

[Kranium]

12 hours ago, hozz1235 said:

2 words:  Custom Game

1 word: Feats.

[Leeanda]

Forgive me for saying but how have those who have played since day one or near enough not got all the feats already?

I've only been playing for three years and the only one I don't have is dark walker and that's because I have no interest in doing that challenge.

[UpUpAway95]

3 hours ago, Lexilogo said:

I think I should explain myself a bit more as my previous counter to the Custom Game argument was more of an authoritative statement rather than an in-depth argument.

Customisation options do not negate bad game design features, because at the end of the day, game design is about creating an enjoyable set of rules. That's why, despite most TTRPGs having the caveat "the GM can override these rules at any time", they still have dozens and dozens of books dedicated to the pursuit of the best possible set of default rules. (and why the playerbase still don't like bad design decisions made to the default rules)

Customisation options are great when you can't satisfy an entire playerbase, and so need to give them multiple choices. (eg. it's not like Celeste's Assist Mode is in the game because the platforming mechanics are unfair. They're in the game because players don't all come to a game in equal condition) But using customisation to defend bad game design is cowardice on behalf of the designer, and is no different from arguments like "well, if you think that's overpowered, just don't use it".

 

While Cabin Fever is a unique problem, if it's any consolation to Hinterland, I think it's pretty comparable to a mechanic Don't Starve Together implemented, Disease.

Klei had the guts to admit that, yes, even though Disease could also be turned off in the settings, that wasn't an excuse for it remaining in the game, especially as a setting that was on by default. Practically the entire playerbase recommended turning it off, and servers that forgot to often found their farms destroyed by the mechanic with little warning. (coincidentally, Disease is also a mechanic that targets the player after ~50 days and is designed to disrupt the consistency of a player's base)

When they reworked farming, they simply removed it, and the playerbase was overjoyed about it, because it was badly designed and it was one less landmine for new players to quit the game over. Even if you think Cabin Fever a fine mechanic, would you actually miss it if it was deleted?

Frankly, yes I would miss it... since I might be inclined to spend more time indoors staying warm than outside facing my fears.  I would not have learned how possible it is to stay outdoors in blizzards or how cozy it can be to sleep out in a cave or how to keep a fire burning by nursing it with sticks when the wind changes and a host of other activities beyond "sitting in a car" attempting to press the "pass time" button.

You're equating cabin fever with a game mechanic that "destroyed farms" in a multiplayer environment.  Cabin fever inconveniences a player's plans to stay indoors for 24-hours after getting it... and it warns the player that they have a risk of getting long before they actually do get it.  As I said before, 24-hours outdoors is not an unreasonable ask for a game that has so large a variety of possible outdoor activities to fill in that 24-hours... and your bear skin coat is not going to get destroyed if you craft it in stages or put off finishing it for 24-hours.  It's not the same thing at all.

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[hozz1235]

5 hours ago, Lexilogo said:

I think I should explain myself a bit more as my previous counter to the Custom Game argument was more of an authoritative statement rather than an in-depth argument.

Customisation options do not negate bad game design features, because at the end of the day, game design is about creating an enjoyable set of rules. That's why, despite most TTRPGs having the caveat "the GM can override these rules at any time", they still have dozens and dozens of books dedicated to the pursuit of the best possible set of default rules. (and why the playerbase still don't like bad design decisions made to the default rules)

Customisation options are great when you can't satisfy an entire playerbase, and so need to give them multiple choices. (eg. it's not like Celeste's Assist Mode is in the game because the platforming mechanics are unfair. They're in the game because players don't all come to a game in equal condition) But using customisation to defend bad game design is cowardice on behalf of the designer, and is no different from arguments like "well, if you think that's overpowered, just don't use it".

 

While Cabin Fever is a unique problem, if it's any consolation to Hinterland, I think it's pretty comparable to a mechanic Don't Starve Together implemented, Disease.

Klei had the guts to admit that, yes, even though Disease could also be turned off in the settings, that wasn't an excuse for it remaining in the game, especially as a setting that was on by default. Practically the entire playerbase recommended turning it off, and servers that forgot to often found their farms destroyed by the mechanic with little warning. (coincidentally, Disease is also a mechanic that targets the player after ~50 days and is designed to disrupt the consistency of a player's base)

When they reworked farming, they simply removed it, and the playerbase was overjoyed about it, because it was badly designed and it was one less landmine for new players to quit the game over. Even if you think Cabin Fever is a fine mechanic, would you actually miss it if it was deleted?

You make a valid point.  It would be interesting to see how many players "don't mind it" and play within the confines defined by HL.  If a landslide majority are opposed to it, I could see the need for it to be removed.

[UpUpAway95]

4 minutes ago, hozz1235 said:

You make a valid point.  It would be interesting to see how many players "don't mind it" and play within the confines defined by HL.  If a landslide majority are opposed to it, I could see the need for it to be removed.

... and we'll see how quickly the old problem of people "camping" indoors for days on end returns... There may be no leaderboards now, but there is still an "ego" about pushing saves to the utmost extreme for # of days survived... if sitting indoors pressing the "pass time" button can be called "surviving" in this game.

15 minutes ago, diggity said:

I would rather have the carrot than the stick to learn those things.  There's nothing that will convince me that my char would rather go outside during a raging PV blizzard because he's spent a couple days indoors in the farmhouse and "feels like the walls are closing in".  That's just silly.

It's still not a very big stick... certainly not as big a stick as players keep trying to make it out to be.  It's a minor inconvenience for 24- hours... certainly not as onerous as broken ribs (a week without being able to use a rope).  Sure, it doesn't make sense, but neither does "glimmer fog" or "aurora bears."  Do "broken ribs" from a moose stomp make as much sense as people claim.  IRL, the moose's antlers are going to give you a number of bleeding lacerations.  The broken ribs won't be of a kind that you could heal in a week either... they would probably result in "flail chest" and kill you... and why can't a bear hug give you broken ribs or a fall from a rope?  If you're looking for things that make absolutely sense, I'd venture you're not going to find much of it in video games in general.

[UpUpAway95]

27 minutes ago, diggity said:

Sure ya, go sleep outside in the car and  it's done.   But that's not the point - the point is, like you admit, it doesn't make sense, in the context of the game.    The fact is that is was added to the game out of spite - and iirc and I'm paraphrasing here - the quote is "as for you hibernators, we've got something for you".      I don't want to drag this out, but like anything done out of spite it has negative consequences.     Why they don't remove it after 7 years is a mystery.

What sense does "sleep as a resource" make.  I can sleep for 6 hours and wake up in the middle of the night unable to see to find my way out of the room... but I can't sleep for 8 hours and wake up at dawn?  Why don't they remove it?  I have to totally exhaust myself to get a full night's sleep... since when IRL is that a thing?

ETA:  I set my sleep for a full night, but then there's nothing I can do to wake up for an aurora that started 4 hours before I had selected to wake up?... even if that's the aurora that can get me out of the Cinder Hills Mine in CH?  Is that a "better" game mechanic than the cabin fever one... so much better that it shouldn't be removed, but cabin fever should be?

Edited April 6, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[xanna]

All I can say is that I'm envious of your ability to sleep. I wake up when I wake up and whether I've had 4 hours' or 7 hours' sleep, I can't just make myself sleep more.

[UpUpAway95]

16 minutes ago, xanna said:

All I can say is that I'm envious of your ability to sleep. I wake up when I wake up and whether I've had 4 hours' or 7 hours' sleep, I can't just make myself sleep more.

I've had a regular circadian rhythm since I was a kid... didn't matter if I had done an exhausting amount of manual labor during the day or spent the day sitting at a desk doing paperwork.  Noises in the night will wake me up... so I simply can't fathom not being able to wake up my character during an aurora when all the lights start buzzing... but the game mechanic says that once I choose a sleep duration, I'm sttuck with it, period.  There is an option in Custom to enable waking up if freezing by a fire, but not one to that toggles waking up for auroras.  In the Cinder Hills Mine... it can be a death sentence.

Try to continue to get them to remove cabin fever... go ahead.  I will miss it if they do.  All I've really been trying to do here is make people aware of several options and adaptations to their gameplay they CAN make... you know, just in case HL decides not to remove it.  Have a nice day/night.

[xanna]

I've been reading all this with interest. Some rambling thoughts:

I am happy with Cabin Fever in the games I play, but I don't play with Interloper-level weather. I do like the extra incentive of going outside to do things so I don't get that Cabin Fever Risk warning. I agree no sane person would go outside in a blizzard for no reason, but I guess tthe point that by the time you've got the actual Cabin Fever, not just the Risk, that you're not exactly sane at that moment. My way of thinking of it is that getting the Risk makes my survivor feel itchy and restless and feel a bit trapped, and definitely not mentally comfortable staying indoors to do crafting if they could be outside. So that's my cue to go out as much as possible, for the duration of the Risk. I spend time outdoors before the Risk, too, when I can, eg reading or sewing outdoors if it's warm and light, because I know Cabin Fever is a thing. I like having that extra nudge to help me decide what to do.

If people are too often finding that going out when they can during the Risk still leads to the affliction, then the calculation time and/or Risk warning time is obviously not good. My feeling is that it ought to be possible to see the Risk and then have enough time to do what's needed to reduce it to 0, and you only get the affliction if the Risk is actually ignored. That is a crude but not ridiculous model of minding mental health. But on modes with more frequent severe weather, that's going to be less and less possible. Even though mental health is vitally important, in extreme situations, physical conditions that are an immediate threat to life are unlikely to be neglected in favour of mental health in the short-term.

As a model of mental health, I'm not sure how the actual effects of Cabin Fever fit. No being able to pass time feels arbitrary. I'm not sure what would be a good set of restrictions for the affliction to have, though. Something like not being able to read or craft indoors, as they require focus and mental wellness, but passing time and sleeping are allowed. Maybe the insomnia affliction? (Thinking about how I feel afflicted when my mental health is poor.) Definitely I ought to be able to read and sew and craft outdoors when I have the affliction.

In general, I'm glad that this (and now Insomnia) are the only mental health things in TLD (except in Darkwalker). I've never found mental health modelling in games to be effective either as gameplay or as a comment on how mental health actually operates. They run the risk of being very insensitive in the necessary over-simplicity. It's too hard to get immersion from mental health effects, too. I feel immersed by the cold risk when I'm surrounded by the wind noise and stormy visuals, even when I'm playing in my stuffy room in a heatwave. But it's harder to be immersed in mental effects because my own feelings are part of my gameplay in a way my temperature is not. I feel scared when I see a bear charge, I feel relieved when I make it to the top of a rope that I didn't plan properly for, those emotional responses are part of the experience, so I don't want to divorce my emotional state from the PC's the way I divorce my body temperature from the PC's. Giving the PC an emotional state that I might not have myself is therefore a real risk of immersion-breaking.

Would I miss it? Probably not much, but I do like to pay attention to the extra constraint. If I was playing with more severe weather I would probably feel differently.

[Moosemaster]

Oh we’re still doing this? Grab a drink everyone this could get messy real quick 🧉

Edited April 6, 2023 by Moosemaster

[xanna]

29 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I simply can't fathom not being able to wake up my character during an aurora when all the lights start buzzing... but the game mechanic says that once I choose a sleep duration, I'm sttuck with it, period. 

Yeah, sleeping through the night is one of those things I only ever experience in games, LOL
 

[Moosemaster]

11 minutes ago, xanna said:

Feel that