suggestion [Feedback] Dying to Sleeping in the Cold Without Hypothermia

[Neko-san]

I've noticed that it's painfully easy to die to the cold in the game by simply going to sleep in the cold without being woken up by the cold if the player isn't even in a state of hypothermia.

I discussed this with someone on The Long Dark Discord server about this, and their rebuttal was that hypothermia is the cause, but had no reply when I pointed out that every other condition meter has exactly the same prevention system for various tasks such as being too hungry, tired, or thirsty to focus (etc) and that it's both inconsistent that being woken up by the cold (if you were perfectly fine) isn't a function and that the lack of it doesn't make sense, especially if you don't have or contract hypothermia.

Perfect example:

1. You exit out the back of the hydro-plant dam in Mystery Lake
2. There's a blizzard but it's blowing from the direction of the dam, thus the wall shields you from the wind
3. You are adequately dress to survive this if you stood here doing absolutely nothing (no temp drop)
4. You lay down to take a nap
5. Wind changes direction
6. You die
7. Congratulations, the player just committed suicide in a bafflingly unrealistic scenario where their nervous system completely deactivates while sleeping and lost sense of touch and could do nothing after committing to this task to stop it

I'm sure you've followed me so far where this not only doesn't make sense but is also incredibly irritating for anyone who accidentally navigates to fast to perform a similar task but completely forgot that this is a problem to begin with and probably knew that the better way to avoid it, if they wanted to nap, was to drop down a snow shelter to sleep in instead.

This should be rectified; I understand that the original intent was likely a similar train of thought as the rebuttal but the problem here is that the implementation has an obviously painful design oversight and should be reconsidered to be far less dangerous than essentially an instant death.

[I_eat_only_wolf_meat]

I know what you mean about this being an "unrealistic" behavior.  I always thought the pain of freezing to death should be enough to wake you up, at least in the early stages.

On the other hand, this is part of the difficulty of the Stalker and Interloper difficulty settings.  In the easier modes, "wake player when freezing to death" is set on.  So there is a solution - you can start a custom game, load the stalker or interloper presets, and switch it on manually.

Also, as you say, there are snow shelters, and generally speaking, there is a warm shelter within a short walk of most locations in most regions.  I discovered the unpleasantness of this behavior early on in my Stalker days and I haven't had a problem with it since because I never go to sleep outdoors without a snow shelter except under the most utterly dire circumstances.

[SpanishMoss]

Yeah, this issue is difficultly based, if you don't want to have this happen, just enable the setting in the custom game options. The point of this addition is to make the game harder, and punish the player for sleeping when they shouldn't 

[Neko-san]

19 minutes ago, I_eat_only_wolf_meat said:

I know what you mean about this being an "unrealistic" behavior.  I always thought the pain of freezing to death should be enough to wake you up, at least in the early stages.

On the other hand, this is part of the difficulty of the Stalker and Interloper difficulty settings.  In the easier modes, "wake player when freezing to death" is set on.  So there is a solution - you can start a custom game, load the stalker or interloper presets, and switch it on manually.

Also, as you say, there are snow shelters, and generally speaking, there is a warm shelter within a short walk of most locations in most regions.  I discovered the unpleasantness of this behavior early on in my Stalker days and I haven't had a problem with it since because I never go to sleep outdoors without a snow shelter except under the most utterly dire circumstances.

I've personally experienced the example I mentioned on Voyageur, so I don't see how it's difficulty-based. : /

And while true that other options could be available, this not being consistently enforced is definitely a "foot gun."

[Leeanda]

I'm a bit confused on this. On pilgrim I've slept outside and died when I should have woken up!  

[I_eat_only_wolf_meat]

@Neko-san @LeeandaIt appears to be difficulty-based when looking at the presets within the custom difficulty configuration tool.  I just took it at face value,  but honestly, I don't have firsthand experience with any difficulty less than stalker so you might be right.

[SpanishMoss]

I think that setting refers to your fire going out while sleeping, not when you start dying. Also, how would you be woken up from freezing if you are already freezing in the first place? Then it would just prevent you from sleeping...

[Neko-san]

7 hours ago, SpanishMoss said:

I think that setting refers to your fire going out while sleeping, not when you start dying. Also, how would you be woken up from freezing if you are already freezing in the first place? Then it would just prevent you from sleeping...

Death from hypothermia and just having hypothermia are slightly different; it's a status condition in the game but to die from the cold hypothermia is also a prerequisite.

It's implied if your condition drops to 0 from the cold that you died of hypothermia, but if you don't actually *contact* the status affect it's also expected that you *don't have* hypothermia (which sounds contradictory, I know). That said, you have to be cold enough first before reaching that state, and that would guaranteed wake any normal person up first.

[I_eat_only_wolf_meat]

14 hours ago, SpanishMoss said:

I think that setting refers to your fire going out while sleeping, not when you start dying. Also, how would you be woken up from freezing if you are already freezing in the first place? Then it would just prevent you from sleeping...

The setting is named "Wake up player when freezing near a fire".  The description states "If you start to freeze when resting next to a fire, you will wake up.  Helps prevent freezing in your sleep.  NOTE: this setting only applies when resting near a fire." 

It seems to work in tandem with the setting, "Fires prevent freezing", which protects you from freezing even if your active fire isn't hot enough to actually protect you. (just a few sticks, maybe, like +4-5 C)

Both of these are set "YES" for pilgrim and voyageur, and "NO" for stalker and Interloper.

So, that explains a couple things.

For any difficulty, the first setting won't help you if there is no fire.

Without the second setting ON, you can still freeze to death near an active fire if it is not hot enough.

 

[Neko-san]

That clarifies exactly what you were referring to, and while it makes sense in that specific context, in the case where the player has the clothing to not need a fire and there not being a function for handling that similar scenario is indeed an odd oversight...

Humans can tell the difference between drops in temperature rather well; we don't have fur or thick hides to really ignore even slight drops in temperature (ever been asked who touched the thermostat? Lol)

[odizzido]

The worst part of this situation is if you want to be safe you need to sleep in one hour increments. There is no challenge with actual gameplay, the only challenge is in real life with how much time and clicking you're willing to spend on sleep.

[I_eat_only_wolf_meat]

12 hours ago, odizzido said:

you need to sleep in one hour increments

This works, but you forfeit a great deal of condition restoration due to the short sleep times.

[ManicManiac]

I find that 2-3 hour naps work well for me.  It allows for a reasonable amount of rest while still giving me a decent safely margin if it gets too cold during one of my naps.

Personally, I don't really see a need for Hinterland to change this.  If anything, I think it's a case of sometimes a video game, just has to "video game." 

Personally I like that we can easily die in our sleep by essentially "freezing to death."  I think it both encourages the player to have to play more carefully and make deliberate choices...  and is also in line with their stated desire for the game to not hold the player's hand.  Allowing us to suffer the consequences of our choices/mistakes.

To be clear, I understand why folks feel the way they do about it... and I'm not judging anyone's opinion, I'm just sharing mine.   

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by ManicManiac

[Neko-san]

I can understand that sentiment; although, I would prefer consistency concerning the game's functions, especially since survival mode doesn't explain any of them aside from button prompts, the status, and crafting menus.

If condition meters affect actions, I think they should behave consistently across the board instead of "coincidentally" and arbitrarily deciding that the most important one be exempt from the rule while simultaneously being in direct contradiction with an established status effect; which, is supposed to be like what you mentioned: a means to make players suffer consequences.

If hypothermia *wasn't* a status effect with meaning in the game already, I'd oblige that point, except *it is* already established and regardless wouldn't excuse the idea of a perfectly healthy person essentially instantly contracting it and dying without doing *anything* about it; it's ludicrous, even for a game, and feels more like getting trolled because of how there's no way to cancel the action in such a scenario once it's been started. Similar to your point, one could argue that waking oneself up from sleep is hard, but a "game could just be a game" and give me literally any way out when I see my condition plumet just as the screen fades to sleep.

[odizzido]

11 hours ago, I_eat_only_wolf_meat said:

This works, but you forfeit a great deal of condition restoration due to the short sleep times.

I always played with sleep condition restoration disabled so I never noticed.

[I_eat_only_wolf_meat]

8 hours ago, odizzido said:

I always played with sleep condition restoration disabled so I never noticed.

Yikes.  Sounds hard.  I finished "As the Dead Sleep" challenge, but it was touch and go for a bit.

[UpUpAway95]

22 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

I find that 2-3 hour naps work well for me.  It allows for a reasonable amount of rest while still giving me a decent safely margin if it gets too cold during one of my naps.

Personally, I don't really see a need for Hinterland to change this.  If anything, I think it's a case of sometimes a video game, just has to "video game." 

Personally I like that we can easily die in our sleep by essentially "freezing to death."  I think it both encourages the player to have to play more carefully and make deliberate choices...  and is also in line with their stated desire for the game to not hold the player's hand.  Allowing us to suffer the consequences of our choices/mistakes.

To be clear, I understand why folks feel the way they do about it... and I'm not judging anyone's opinion, I'm just sharing mine.   

 

Well said.  I agree.

OP - It is different than other mechanics in the game; but once you're aware of the mechanics of the game, it's really not a problem and is in keeping with the philosophy @ManicManiachas so eloquently stated above. 

The player can make deliberate choices that matter.   If one goes to sleep outdoors longer than an hour or two, they risk the weather changing randomly as they sleep and potentially changing enough that they start losing condition to the cold as they sleep.  Sleep for long enough to lose all of your condition and you don't wake up.  The player, as a result, can weigh the benefit of possible condition gain over longer periods of sleep against the possibility of a weather change in the location in which they themselves have chosen to sleep. 

There are ample caves and locations in the game where even a lightly dressed player can sleep for entire nights in safety.  If the player does not want to risk dying in their sleep, they can also choose to push onward to one of those safer locations.  There are even many outdoor locations where the player can be assured their fire will not go out even if the wind direction changes.  If tired, the player can also choose to not sleep, but rather consume coffee or Go or a stim. 

Death in this case is the direct result of the player choosing a poor location to fall asleep... not due to the game mechanic failing to hold the player's hand by waking them up every time the temperature drops by a degree (or however many arbitrary degrees you think would be fair).

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by UpUpAway95

[odizzido]

16 hours ago, I_eat_only_wolf_meat said:

Yikes.  Sounds hard.  I finished "As the Dead Sleep" challenge, but it was touch and go for a bit.

I still have awake regen on at minimum levels so I can gain something like 8% life per day as long as I keep all my meters up. I also turned down hunger/thirst to minimum amounts so it's not just all hard. I just try to have the game be more realistic and I want the threat of death to be slower and more present instead of just being perfectly healthy or dead all the time. Anyways I can't have that yet so I am just waiting for good mod support.

 

edit------

While I agree that I don't want hand holding, I also want the world to make sense. I would prefer the game be harder in ways other than your character drying from, for example, not drinking for 15 hours despite having has as much water as you could possibly drink for a week straight before. Or in the case of what the OP said.

Edited March 11, 2022 by odizzido

[UpUpAway95]

On 3/10/2022 at 8:23 PM, odizzido said:

I still have awake regen on at minimum levels so I can gain something like 8% life per day as long as I keep all my meters up. I also turned down hunger/thirst to minimum amounts so it's not just all hard. I just try to have the game be more realistic and I want the threat of death to be slower and more present instead of just being perfectly healthy or dead all the time. Anyways I can't have that yet so I am just waiting for good mod support.

 

edit------

While I agree that I don't want hand holding, I also want the world to make sense. I would prefer the game be harder in ways other than your character drying from, for example, not drinking for 15 hours despite having has as much water as you could possibly drink for a week straight before. Or in the case of what the OP said.

A survival game based on IRL drinking and eating "risks" of dying would ultimately be as boring as it is in real life.  All that would be left is falling through the ice, since IRL lethal animal attacks are quite rare in North American despite the millions of people each year who use the National Parks wildlife areas for recreation... and are not allowed to carry guns or other lethal weapons while doing so.  So, what would make sense... zombies?

[odizzido]

Human zombies would just freeze and be harmless, and besides, wolves/dogs are essentially zombies anyways. They have all the same mechanics. But that's what the event did to them so okay, that's fine. Personally I would like them to be less predictable but that would requite an overhaul.

I personally would be more interested in playing survival if I could go on hunting trips instead of just popping around the corner where the animals always spawn in their tiny little area and just shooting another couple days of food. If animals dropped more meat but were rare enough that you still had the threat of starvation even on minimum hunger then I would be happy. It would make finding that deer meaningful instead of just "oh there's another one".

I would also like freezing to be more of a threat too. Currently you find a couple items and all indoor areas are perfectly livable so it's almost impossible to get too cold. If you had to heat homes this would be another thing you would have to survive against.

Long term injuries might be interesting, but this I am less sure about. If you sprain your hand it could take weeks to actually heal. I would like to try it but I don't know if I would like it.

Anyways I've had a number of other things I've thought about while I played but I will stop here.

[UpUpAway95]

9 hours ago, odizzido said:

Human zombies would just freeze and be harmless, and besides, wolves/dogs are essentially zombies anyways. They have all the same mechanics. But that's what the event did to them so okay, that's fine. Personally I would like them to be less predictable but that would requite an overhaul.

I personally would be more interested in playing survival if I could go on hunting trips instead of just popping around the corner where the animals always spawn in their tiny little area and just shooting another couple days of food. If animals dropped more meat but were rare enough that you still had the threat of starvation even on minimum hunger then I would be happy. It would make finding that deer meaningful instead of just "oh there's another one".

I would also like freezing to be more of a threat too. Currently you find a couple items and all indoor areas are perfectly livable so it's almost impossible to get too cold. If you had to heat homes this would be another thing you would have to survive against.

Long term injuries might be interesting, but this I am less sure about. If you sprain your hand it could take weeks to actually heal. I would like to try it but I don't know if I would like it.

Anyways I've had a number of other things I've thought about while I played but I will stop here.

I've bolded the key phrase in your response.  I'm pretty sure I'd find it more boring and annoying than fun.  I'm also pretty sure there are a number of people who would feel the same way... judging from a multitude of comments I've read/heard here and elsewhere regarding sprains and broken ribs.  You yourself are unsure you'd like it.  Well, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to limp around for weeks in-game in, say, Ash Canyon, unable to climb a rope... I'd probably be looking for ways to end the save quickly and start again with an uninjured character... or I'd be looking for a way to backup the file frequently before things happen and reload if an injury occurs (effectively save scumming - which I've heard Raph absolutely hates).

The animal spawns right now are very unpredictable... and we have people searching the entire world for moose and bears despite custom settings being "high"... and those people don't seem to be very happy about that.  Programming them to not have specific spawn locations seems counter to virtually every game I've played.  Even Minecraft utilizes specific parameters for each mob type (e.g. light/air above a solid block, etc.) that eliminates possible locations for those mobs spawning (e.g. you don't find wolves in plains biomes).  They also use a specific distance from the player (e.g. equivalent to the "spawn distance" setting in this game).  Unless I'm completely misunderstanding you, I don't think what you're proposing is something that's practical from a programming perspective... particularly on the old engine this game runs on.  I think my Xbox One would probably implode under the strain.

You don't know if you'd like it and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like it... so let's just agree to disagree or agree as the case may be.

[Ghurcb]

15 hours ago, odizzido said:

I would also like freezing to be more of a threat too. Currently you find a couple items and all indoor areas are perfectly livable so it's almost impossible to get too cold. If you had to heat homes this would be another thing you would have to survive against.

YES PLEASE! Seriously, for a game about surviving in the cold, it's too easy to escape it by simply entering a building (one that hasn't been heated in months)

15 hours ago, odizzido said:

Long term injuries might be interesting, but this I am less sure about. If you sprain your hand it could take weeks to actually heal. I would like to try it but I don't know if I would like it.

A week is a bit too much, in my opinion. But I also think that sprains are way too easy to treat. If they required both bandage and 3 hours of rest to be treated, players wouldn't be so eager to mountain-goat all the time.

[Leeanda]

How long can you survive without being able to hold most weapons due to sprain injuries?  

[Kranium]

Does playing with custom settings allow you to complete feats?

 

Anyway, I don't see this as much of an issue, and I'm a stickler for making things realistic in this game. Risk assessment is one of the most important things in any survival situation. Freezing to death in your sleep is simply the result of a bad/risky decision.

 

Would I like to change it so one wakes up once you gain the affliction? (like how IRL the onset of bad shivering wakes you up) Sure, I'll add it to my list. But it's near the bottom of said list. (athough I'd love to add "uncontrollable shivering" and "confusion" to the hypothermia affliction scale, and you'd wake up with one or both of those) Way below "ability to step higher than 3 inches" and "canned goods totally decay in a few weeks".

[Bimbobjoejr.]

8 minutes ago, Kranium said:

Does playing with custom settings allow you to complete feats?

If you're talking about playing on custom mode, then yes, it seems like it doesn't work towards feats.