BP. The new BI as far as interloper. No reason to go

[Lord of the Long Dark]

  Love BP but unfortunately once again from a survival perspective there is no reason to go other than just for the challenge and nothing more. 
  The ballistic vest is a 13lb paper weight for anyone except the most naive new player-  there is no way an interloper would even consider it and honestly is practically useless on any level.

  So what we have is basically the same as BI- a challenging level but no reason to visit. I will of course go  AC for the backpack and crampons. I will go to HRV for combat pants and mackinaw. I’ll visit TWM summit for the flares. I of course have to visit the township areas to fill out my top line clothing.  
  Actually now that crampons are finally repairable (thanks for doing that, I have been asking this for months!!) there is finally legitimate reason for visiting BI, but now BP has taken its place as the most challenging region with no practical incentive to visit other than just to lose precarious resources and 1/4 your arrows  

    Each region should have one unique incentive to justify visiting and the vest is hardly it. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Lord of the Long Dark

[Kranium]

You know, if they wanted to add a protective item, I'd have preferred something to protect from electric shocks. Rubber boots, say. Going thru the dam during an aurora (to get buffer memories) is pretty darned annoying.

 

Ballistic vest is definitely useless.

[Salty Crackers]

The only use I see for the Ballistic Vest is if you want to knife fight some wolves for the meat. Still probably not worth it, especially on Interloper, where you would be forced to use the improvised hatchet at best.

It would be fun to try and knife fight a timberwolf pack with it on, mainly to see if it could be done.

 

Even on Interloper, you still need to visit Blackrock to unlock the Noisemaker blueprint, so there is at least some reason to go even if you don't want the Ballistic Vest.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Salty Crackers

[ChillPlayer]

1 hour ago, Salty Crackers said:

Even on Interloper, you still need to visit Blackrock to unlock the Noisemaker blueprint, so there is at least some reason to go even if you don't want the Ballistic Vest.

Exactly this, probably one of the best reasons to visit any region on interloper. You can have the "peng" of the rifle/revolver, which introduces carefree (careless) travelling in modes without guns.

Btw, has anyone tried to actually kill an animal with the noisemaker? When timed correctly one should be able to hit a deer or an unaware wolf. It leaves quite a stain on the ground so I wonder if it's possible to hand-granate some dinner too

 

[Serenity]

There doesn't have to be a special item in a region to justify going somewhere. It similar to the reason people climb mountains. Because it's there.

[I_eat_only_wolf_meat]

1 hour ago, ChillPlayer said:

so I wonder if it's possible to hand-granate some dinner too

 

Sleeping bears come to mind.  If anyone is in a position to try this, please do.

Edited December 13, 2021 by I_eat_only_wolf_meat

[Guest jeffpeng]

19 minutes ago, ChillPlayer said:

Btw, has anyone tried to actually kill an animal with the noisemaker? When timed correctly one should be able to hit a deer or an unaware wolf. It leaves quite a stain on the ground so I wonder if it's possible to hand-granate some dinner too

You can kill a bear with it, I can confirm that. You apparently can even kill a moose, as people on the wiki claim. Still: I see its use mostly as a "get out of wolf pack free" card, as there are more sustainable and reliable ways to down a moose or a bear, and as an ultimate deterrent against those the flare pistol is more effective.

Maybe if you want a super early moose kill (if it actually works) and spawn in TWM or BP( or BLK? BLR? BK?!) and are nuts enough to bet your life on that chance plus willing to take the rather strenuous tour to the mine for them...... Yeah, me neither.

Still, personally I think the noisemaker is a good addition as it at least gives gunpowder a use on Interloper, and provides effective, renewable armament against the one enemy an Interloper can otherwise hardly defend against without taking heavy losses. On the other hand I agree with the stance that there is no real "reason" to go either BI or Blackrock, no tangible incentive other than having done it . But if I for some reason had to, I'd prefer Blackrock over Bleak Inlet in any case. I think we'll just have to come to terms with the fact that while Interloper is in the game, it's not really a thing they balance or particularly care for.

As for the vest: I'll still have to test what it actually does. I usually play with an emphasis on heavy defense instead of high mobility or high warmth, simply because the cold won't just surprise you coming around a corner and mauling your face - but a bear will. But basically losing the ability to sprint at all seems a bit hard on top of the fact that you basically need to use the satchel to counteract the sheer weight of that thing and lose crampons for it. So unless that "Armoured" buff actually like prevents bleeding altogether, prevents condition loss on any other clothes, or actually prevents broken ribs wrestling with a moose .... I find it hard to justify it. Unless .....

... yeah what actually happens when you hit 100% protection? Up until now 10% protection meant 10% less damage. 50% protection meant 50% less damage. Does 100% mean no more damage? Although I think you cannot hit that on Interloper, as the maximum should be 4% Rabbit Hat, 20% Moose Hide Cloak, 5% Rabbit Mitts, 10% Dearskin Pants, 7% Dearskin Boots, 3% Crampons (yes, accessories now add up) = 49% + 50%. But close enough.

Also: did anyone else notice that both the crampons (10% -> 3%) and the Moose Hide Cloak (25% -> 20%) got a nerf for this? I get why on the crampons, because they kinda were (and are) a no-brainer, but with the MHC losing 5% I find it pretty hard to justify over a BSC now.

[ChillPlayer]

2 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

As for the vest: I'll still have to test what it actually does.

I have tested this today on my Stalker run but only against wolves. With the wolf cloak, deer pants, rabbit mittens, other premium cloths and the vest I had 84% protection. When fighting the wolf with a knife I've got a sprained ankle or wrist, three times in a row but no condition loss. I then tried to fight the wolf with a revolver, first I didn't do anything for a few seconds and then I started hitting it. After the fight my head and I think my foot were bleeding and needed a bandage, condition loss was about 30% and I went into the same animation as after a bear fight, I also dropped some arrows during the fight. Without the vest I would've probably be down to 10% but it does not prevent bleeding, at least not if you don't fight back.

Is it worth it? Nah, 6kg is a lot and it's much easier to deal with the beasts in another fasion without limiting yourself so much. On stalker and below you have guns, on interloper you have torches which act like a magic wand against wolves of any kind. Might be useful for a bear or moose fight but if one is careful, these fights can easily be avoided.

[Guest jeffpeng]

I wouldn't call torches "magic" since they get "dispelled" by wind in just the wrong moment as I've found out too many times 😅

But I've been thinking about the vest some more, and the only decent application I can see for it is relatively early in the game when you don't have animal hide gear, and gimp around in jeans, a ski jacket, some trail boots and yours truly fleece mittens. Running into a wolf like that will almost certainly ruin your day, possibly even your run if you aren't in good condition and/or not even have a pry bar or hammer yet. So maaaaybe investing a flare or two, getting to the prison, and snatching the vest might actually be worth it until you get better gear, making things like hunting for your first bearskin much less daunting. After all: the vest is not repairable anyways, and late game with all the other protective (and warm!) clothing you really have better options and are well enough protected to survive most mishaps unless they chain into an unfortunate series of events.

[A Lamp]

Yeah the ballistic vest is bad, but eventually some mods could make it somewhat useful. If ofc you'll install them.

[SpanishMoss]

2 arguments for the other side:

first: timberwolves are extremely easy to stop from attacking you. All you need is a lit flare or torch, and you can literally ignore them. 

 

Second, black rock also has a Milling Machine, which is useful on late game interloper. CH is one of the best regions to survive long term, and blackrock might be a closer alternative to BI for it. 
 

I do agree that the vest is kinda bad for late game players with the flare gun, and noisemakers are also pointless, but the extra region to loot might be helpful 

[Lord of the Long Dark]

19 minutes ago, SpanishMoss said:

2 arguments for the other side:

first: timberwolves are extremely easy to stop from attacking you. All you need is a lit flare or torch, and you can literally ignore them. 

 

Second, black rock also has a Milling Machine, which is useful on late game interloper. CH is one of the best regions to survive long term, and blackrock might be a closer alternative to BI for it. 
 

I do agree that the vest is kinda bad for late game players with the flare gun, and noisemakers are also pointless, but the extra region to loot might be helpful 

Why on earth is a milling machine useful at all in interloper??  What to repair a knife that you can forge in 3 hours without facing timberwolves. No interloper is ever going to go to BP or BI to repair a knife. Crampons- yes but I saw my crampons we’re not repairable at BP today. 
   And as for noisemakers-  nah. I much rather use the gunpowder for accelerant. Absolutely no use for noisemakers for me. Better than spray pain I suppose. 

[Lord of the Long Dark]

5 hours ago, Serenity said:

There doesn't have to be a special item in a region to justify going somewhere. It similar to the reason people climb mountains. Because it's there.

Ummmm that’s not the premise of the game. It’s a survival situation. 
  People who take adventurous challenges may well find themselves in a survival situation, but absolutely no one ever who is in a survival situation decides to just take an adventurous challenge for the hell of it. 
  There should be a legitimate reason to visit a region because it legitimately benefits survival. 

[Leeanda]

Why update a region if you think it's not worth going to ?   Makes no sense to me.

[Lord of the Long Dark]

2 hours ago, Leeanda said:

Why update a region if you think it's not worth going to ?   Makes no sense to me.

No-  they should update or create regions TO make them worth going to by providing a relevant unique survival advantage item especially for interloper.

[Salty Crackers]

12 minutes ago, Lord of the Long Dark said:

No-  they should update or create regions TO make them worth going to by providing a relevant unique survival advantage item especially for interloper.

The game isn't balanced around Interloper. The majority of players are a lot more casual, sticking with Pilgrim or Voyageur and focusing more on the pensive exploration rather than hardcore survival. Hardcore Interloper players are overrepresented on the forums as they are a lot more invested in the game. This doesn't mean that Interloper is not a valid way to play the game- it can be one of the most rewarding survival experiences out there. It just means that the devs don't have to justify adding in regions by making them viable for the least popular experience mode.

[Lord of the Long Dark]

23 minutes ago, Salty Crackers said:

The game isn't balanced around Interloper. The majority of players are a lot more casual, sticking with Pilgrim or Voyageur and focusing more on the pensive exploration rather than hardcore survival. Hardcore Interloper players are overrepresented on the forums as they are a lot more invested in the game. This doesn't mean that Interloper is not a valid way to play the game- it can be one of the most rewarding survival experiences out there. It just means that the devs don't have to justify adding in regions by making them viable for the least popular experience mode.

Think about it: If the devs make game design compatible to interlopers it has no effect whatsoever on easy-level players so why not do it? It’s not like it comes at a cost to the easy levels. They won’t even notice.  It’s not one or the other- it’s for everyone.   That’s all I am saying.

[Salty Crackers]

Just now, Lord of the Long Dark said:

Think about it: If the devs make game design compatible to interlopers it has no effect whatsoever on easy-level players so why not do it? It’s not like it comes at a cost to the easy levels. They won’t even notice.  It’s not one or the other- it’s for everyone.   That’s all I am saying.

What would be a viable reward for dealing with the timberwolves? The Milling Machine would be useful to repair crampons, but they are repairable with a toolbox and scrap metal. I've already mentioned Noisemakers. Would you want something like the prepper cache spawning in Interloper?

[Lord of the Long Dark]

8 minutes ago, Salty Crackers said:

What would be a viable reward for dealing with the timberwolves? The Milling Machine would be useful to repair crampons, but they are repairable with a toolbox and scrap metal. I've already mentioned Noisemakers. Would you want something like the prepper cache spawning in Interloper?

None of those are relevant to an interloper player. You already have crampon repair at BI and it’s way easier since you don’t have to crack the mine code. 
    What would be relevant is something unique in the zone that either can add to your warmth, speed you up or add capacity.  For example- I would totally go to a new zone if there was a regular hatchet. The extra 1/2 hour time saving cutting a log is well worth it. Or if a new region gave the ability to repair sharpening stones- that would be a benefit worth the travel.    But a prepped cache? Nah. Useless. Interloper players think in terms of long term benefit. It’s a totally different game with a totally different strategy. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Lord of the Long Dark

[Salty Crackers]

9 minutes ago, Lord of the Long Dark said:

None of those are relevant to an interloper player. You already have crampon repair at BI and it’s way easier since you don’t have to crack the mine code. 
    What would be relevant is something unique in the zone that either can add to your warmth, speed you up or add capacity.  For example- I would totally go to a new zone if there was a regular hatchet. The extra 1/2 hour time saving cutting a log is well worth it. Or if a new region gave the ability to repair sharpening stones- that would be a benefit worth the travel.    But a prepped cache? Nah. Useless. Interloper players think in terms of long term benefit. It’s a totally different game with a totally different strategy. 

I was thinking the prepper cache would have some unobtainable items, like either a hatchet or knife (not both!), or clothing like a thick wool sweater or climbing socks, along with some food. With a regular hatchet or knife, there is an incentive to use the Milling Machine once you run out of whetstones.

[Lord of the Long Dark]

11 minutes ago, Salty Crackers said:

I was thinking the prepper cache would have some unobtainable items, like either a hatchet or knife (not both!), or clothing like a thick wool sweater or climbing socks, along with some food. With a regular hatchet or knife, there is an incentive to use the Milling Machine once you run out of whetstones.

Well you don’t need a prepper cache for that but either way as long as the items are there. It’s the items that are critical. A better game design of course would be positioning them in some area of moderate to high risk based on the reward value. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Lord of the Long Dark

[Ahatch]

Although there may be no reason to enter Black Rock region there is still the need to challenge yourself a bit. I'm taking my long run interloper survivor with level 5 archery and hopefully depopulate that prison. 

[Salty Crackers]

41 minutes ago, Lord of the Long Dark said:

Well you don’t need a prepper cache for that but either way as long as the items are there. It’s the items that are critical. A better game design of course would be positioning them in some area of moderate to high risk based on the reward value. 

The point of putting it in a prepper cache would be to force you to look in multiple areas around the map rather than beelining towards the guaranteed spawn and immediately leaving the region.

[Guest jeffpeng]

14 hours ago, Salty Crackers said:

The game isn't balanced around Interloper. The majority of players are a lot more casual, sticking with Pilgrim or Voyageur and focusing more on the pensive exploration rather than hardcore survival. Hardcore Interloper players are overrepresented on the forums as they are a lot more invested in the game. This doesn't mean that Interloper is not a valid way to play the game- it can be one of the most rewarding survival experiences out there. It just means that the devs don't have to justify adding in regions by making them viable for the least popular experience mode.

This is kinda the point, isn't it? Of all players that have bought TLD on steam only 20.2% have survived 10 days on any survival setting. Of those 20.2% 3.8% have survived a single day on Interloper. That means roughly 19% of people that play survival have even tried Interloper. I mean I have no data on that, but I wouldn't be too surprised if among the people that even play survival regularly, people that usually do so on Interloder would literally mark the elusive 1%.

So of course the game isn't balanced against Interloper with a lot of effort. Of course there is less consideration going into offering content for Interloper players since effectively nobody does that. And I cannot even fault them for that - instead I've come to be grateful that Interloper even kinda sorta works as well as it does.

[UpUpAway95]

Ultimately, is there a definitive reason for interlopers to go to, say, Mystery Lake or Coastal Highway or Pleasant Valley?  There is nothing in those regions either that can't possibly spawn somewhere else in the game.  I was of the impression that exploration of a variety of areas was its own reward, not just a location to be "beelined" towards to get "unique" loot specific to only one level of difficulty.

I agree with Salty Crackers and Jeff Peng.  Hinterland has an obligation to provide purchasers of the game with a quality experience regardless of the level of challenge they seek.  Their bread and butter is in catering to the largest segments of their playing population who are, for the most part, not the most vocal.

In addition, interloper players have a choice of 3 forges.  The addition of Blackrock brings the total of ammo forges to 2 for players who prefer to use guns rather than arrows.

ETA:  A note specifically to the OP - Consider this, if nothing in a region is worth braving Timberwolves in your game, you do have the option in custom to turn off Timberwolves.  If you leave them in your game  but never go to the two regions they are in, then you're not really playing up to the vanilla standard interloper experience.  They might as well not be there at all.  Braving the T-wolves for the sake of braving the T-wolves is all part of the standard "interloper" game setting.

Edited December 14, 2021 by UpUpAway95