Indoor encounter mechanics with the Walker are completely broken

[Mistral]

So, first off thanks for the great event concept, and most of all the atmosphere! Even the Voyager survival aspects of it were perfectly fine with the horror elements added in! The fo

HOWEVER, I am left a disappointed as it seems as Darkwalker is broken when met indoors. I had collected 6 journals already and received the badges, and was on my way to get all 10 with the route I had. But then, inside the Bleak inlet transition cave from Forlorn, the Walker approached from BOTH directions off the cave. I was literally cornered, in the middle of the cave, without ability to move forward, nor backwards, as the thing came nearer either way I went. Doing the lure or temporarily stalling it did nothing either. In any case, the 'Fear' factor killed me anyway as I couldn't move past it regardless where I went. The same thing happened to me earlier inside the Carter Hydro dam too.

Dodging the monster outdoors is perfectly fine, in fact I had the most loveliest of duels on the entrance of Timberwolf where I had to dodge and lure her away in a fun way... but indoors it's just a broken mess  I'm not sure I want to try going for the 10 again if it's inevitable that the walker arrives at inescapable indoor passages. What's the point of encounters where literally nothing you do makes a difference

Edited October 30, 2020 by Mistral

[Arran]

I agree - darkwalker indoors needs to be fixed somehow. Whenever I enter any building or cave few mins later I receive notification of darkwalker distance <200m. It doesnt matter that outside is scare glyph painted.

[Mistral]

5 minutes ago, Arran said:

I agree - darkwalker indoors needs to be fixed somehow. Whenever I enter any building or cave few mins later I receive notification of darkwalker distance <200m. It doesnt matter that outside is scare glyph painted.

Yes... If there''s a quick hotfix to remove the Walker from indoors, or if the AI (if you can call it that) is tuned some other way, then I would call this event like A-! Right now it's A- as an idea, C+ as an actual experience.

I mean I guess even now there's a chance for great experience if you just happen not to get into the tight passage indoors mess encounters, as it seems to be quite randomized, but if you do get it... putting many hours in only to be killed off in inescapable situation is just... eeh

Edited October 30, 2020 by Mistral

[EfoDom]

The same this happened to me in the cave between MT and ML. I started 3 times in Mountain town and died 3 times because I couldn't get to ML. One time the darkwalker was in front of the cave to ML. So I turned back and went down the rope. He teleported there and I had to go back up the rope. I got to the cave and he was there again... 

[Mistral]

4 minutes ago, EfoDom said:

The same this happened to me in the cave between MT and ML. I started 3 times in Mountain town and died 3 times because I couldn't get to ML. One time the darkwalker was in front of the cave to ML. So I turned back and went down the rope. He teleported there and I had to go back up the rope. I got to the cave and he was there again... 

Teleporting trollery is her/his deadliest weapon... maybe the origins are from Star Trek lol

[ajb1978]

The Darkwalker doesn't teleport, and there aren't more than one.  It can clip through walls, ignores differences in elevation, and always moves towards you in a straight line.  So if you're zig-zagging, taking corners, climbing up and down, etc. it's just coming at you straight the whole time, relentlessly closing the distance.  Once you're out in the open you can outrun it very easily, but it has the advantage when your movement is restricted by terrain.

So things like caves, while you have to follow the contours of the cave, it can come straight at you ignoring walls and climbing spots.  That can make it seem like there's more than one, because you can be getting closer to it no matter which direction you're going.  But that doesn't necessarily mean you're heading directly towards it.  You can also drop a lure to get it to start moving to that spot, while you keep going.

[TFA303]

I don't think this is a bug, but it's Because the Darkwalker can move through walls and terrain,  as well as vertically, so it can move to intercept you no matter which way you run.

[Mistral]

21 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

The Darkwalker doesn't teleport, and there aren't more than one.  It can clip through walls, ignores differences in elevation, and always moves towards you in a straight line.  So if you're zig-zagging, taking corners, climbing up and down, etc. it's just coming at you straight the whole time, relentlessly closing the distance.  Once you're out in the open you can outrun it very easily, but it has the advantage when your movement is restricted by terrain.

So things like caves, while you have to follow the contours of the cave, it can come straight at you ignoring walls and climbing spots.  That can make it seem like there's more than one, because you can be getting closer to it no matter which direction you're going.  But that doesn't necessarily mean you're heading directly towards it.  You can also drop a lure to get it to start moving to that spot, while you keep going.

"That doesn't necessarily mean you're heading directly towards it"
that may be, but how can the player know what direction it's supposedly coming from when the distance draws nearer regardless of where you go in a narrow corridor. And more importantly, you take health damage frorm FEAR factor, which is the real killer here, because even if you're heading the 'right way' (contrary to what the meter says), you still get damage. The lures work horribly indoors as well.

So maybe it's not not bug, but just bad gameplay. Great in wide open spaces, horrible elsewhere.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Mistral

[ajb1978]

15 minutes ago, Mistral said:

So maybe it's not not bug, but just bad gameplay. Great in wide open spaces, horrible elsewhere.

I think it's perfect.  The Darkwalker is pretty easy to avoid normally, and giving it an edge in enclosed spaces kind of makes up for it.  Really all it does is prevent you from camping in one place for too long, which was where 4DON fell short.  You could use the first day to stock up, then just ride out the last 3 with no effort. So people who missed Day 1 were playing at a handicap.

[Mistral]

7 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

I think it's perfect.  The Darkwalker is pretty easy to avoid normally, and giving it an edge in enclosed spaces kind of makes up for it.  Really all it does is prevent you from camping in one place for too long, which was where 4DON fell short.  You could use the first day to stock up, then just ride out the last 3 with no effort. So people who missed Day 1 were playing at a handicap.

Is it an edge if you can't necessarily actually pass it. This isn't like Interloper or Deadman where everything you do actually matters

And camping in one place for too long is already compensated by the region fog limit... also it's not like camping in this mode matters anyway since it's real minutes and not game minutes, you  can run everywhere all you want and sleep 12 hours after that with no penalty

I really do not understand your point at all but let us disagree then. If you enjoy it, well I think they succeeded on their part

Edited October 30, 2020 by Mistral

[Gracia_WolfSlayer]

eh, I agree with @ajb1978 here. The Darkwalker is VERY difficult in caves, but not impossible and to me it just added to the terror. I experienced the 'coming from both ends' like scenario in the cave between CH and DP and I was able to dodge em. essentially I took a stim and ran screaming towards the exit and juked  past him. Now the trick was  that once you exit the cave they're still right on your butt.

Buildings were easy though, I just entered and sprayed a glyph ON THE INSIDE and then I was save to take a much needed power nap.

But yeah, it's frustratingly hard, but not bad IMO 

[UTC-10]

The DW got me in the cave to Desolation Point.  I was just too exhausted to move far (besides carrying probably too much gear).   Now that I look back on it, I wonder if I had stepped back into Crumbling Highway just where the DW would have spawned?  At the transition to the mine, where I would have died immediately, or maybe in the middle of the zone and have to travel to me?  I would imagine the former was more likely than the latter, but if the latter occurred, I'd have been able to go back into the mine, sleep off my fatigue, and if it spawned in the mine again,  do it again, before heading through the mine to Desolation.   If I ever get the desire to try again, I might try that.  For Science!

[Mistral]

9 hours ago, Gracia_WolfSlayer said:

eh, I agree with @ajb1978 here. The Darkwalker is VERY difficult in caves, but not impossible and to me it just added to the terror. I experienced the 'coming from both ends' like scenario in the cave between CH and DP and I was able to dodge em. essentially I took a stim and ran screaming towards the exit and juked  past him. Now the trick was  that once you exit the cave they're still right on your butt.

Buildings were easy though, I just entered and sprayed a glyph ON THE INSIDE and then I was save to take a much needed power nap.

But yeah, it's frustratingly hard, but not bad IMO 

Alright.

Frustratingly hard can also be said of Deadman and maybe even Interloper. On those modes, you die because you screw up somehow. May that screwing up be overconfidence, not reading the evolved situation correctly, even as little things as not having enough warm reishis in your pocket. You see, it's not ultimately the game itself that kills you off, but you. You are the end result of things. And that what makes the 'frustratingly hard' amazing and appreciated, it's survival. Meanwhile in this event, it's either luck or exploitation of the system. I don't see me congratulating myself for kind of, sort of, dodging a thing in exploitative fashion. In fact, I managed to successfully do such exploitation at the Hydro dam (the very end of it, at the Winding River window) by magically running past her. Only to be killed off by Fear, but the point was that I didn't feel particularly great by it.

But I don't wish to argue, we all can have our opinions. In the end, it's only Halloween event anyway, not the core product.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Mistral

[Dascomb]

@Mistralwas right ı was headding to ML from CH and DW appared at the front of tunnel ı cant go back cuz ı had hypothermia fatigue and theres only 15 minute to fog appered at CH ı wont waste my time for that ı sprayed lure but he/shes still approaching to me than ı sprayed warden but he/she just stopped in front of tunnel but ı have to pass The tunnel anyway ı gave up and push myself to DW to kill me indoors are really lethal 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Dascomb

[Arran]

I noticed you can put glyphs also indoors - that gives some option to avoid him, even while moving through cave.

[ArcherAC3]

The exact same thing happened to me.

I had a direct path to get all the 10 pages but the Darkwalker trapped me coming out of the Hushed River region.

It would be both outside behind me when in Hushed River, and inside the cave towards Mountain Town when I stepped in.

That was so frustrating, I'm not even wasting time replaying this.

 

[chillgamesh]

So based on all this it seems like the ideal strat for caves/transition zones is to place a lure glyph right as you come in and then book it to the other end.

Still don't like the fact that it totally ignores interior walls and elevation. It makes more sense to me that it would follow your path (along corridors etc) even if it can pass through doors and has a set climb speed or say, is able to float straight up a cliff face at a comparable speed to its walking. I get that those things are probably more difficult with the existing game physics. As it is, though....

[ManicManiac]

25 minutes ago, chillgamesh said:

Still don't like the fact that it totally ignores interior walls and elevation.

I mean... it's kind of a non-corporeal entity.  I think from a lore perspective malevolent (Wendigo-like) spirits can go where they want.

[ArcherAC3]

22 hours ago, chillgamesh said:

So based on all this it seems like the ideal strat for caves/transition zones is to place a lure glyph right as you come in and then book it to the other end.

That also doesn't work, check this video: https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/archerac3/video/114940501

The problem doesn't lie in the DW being attracted to the lure, but in how the game handles NPCs (or more specifically, the DW's) position based on where the player is.

With an active lure or not, the moment you step into the cave and transition to another zone - while the DW is on your tail - he will literally "spawn" in front of you because the game doesn't know where to place it once the player leaves the region.

[ManicManiac]

...that's why the other poster said to place the glyph inside the cave AFTER the player enters...

What's shown in that video is a player who placed a lure... then enters the cave.
Those glyphs are only locally significant.  Meaning, that when we see a loading screen... the game unloads the area they are leaving, and loads the new discrete area they are entering.  This also means that if the player wants the effect inside the cave... that player needed to use their spray paint inside of the cave, rather than outside the cave.
 

I think this kind of thing just comes down to being a player error, or possibly even a misunderstanding of how the game works (relative to a player's opinion of how they'd want it to work).  If systems are working the way that the designers intended... then by definition, it's not a bug nor is it broken.

I can understand if folks don't like it... that's personal opinion and we are all entitled to our opinions.  However, I don't think it's good form to try and say something is buggy or broken just because a person doesn't like it.

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by ManicManiac

[UTC-10]

I think whether or not the Darkwalker is in contact (<200 meters) matters when going through a transition.  If not in contact (>200 meters) the game likely defaults to putting it in the middle area of the next region or zone so laying a lure inside would then draw the DW to the entry point and if the character is at the exit point he might be able to leave without the DW getting into contact range.  

If in contact the DW spawns in closer to the transition.  I have no way to know if that is what happens but when I exited Cinder Hills mine with the DW well within contact (about 80 meters away) when I appeared in Coastal Highway the DW was about 80 meters away along the snow-plowed road.  I don't remember the distances as I was getting a bit scared. 

My strategy was to impose as much delay on the DW as practical.   But at the entry of the connecting link to Desolation I could go no farther without rest.  There my luck and time ran out.  😞

[Mistral]

On 11/3/2020 at 12:44 AM, ManicManiac said:

 

I think this kind of thing just comes down to being a player error, or possibly even a misunderstanding of how the game works (relative to a player's opinion of how they'd want it to work).  If systems are working the way that the designers intended... then by definition, it's not a bug nor is it broken.

I can understand if folks don't like it... that's personal opinion and we are all entitled to our opinions.  However, I don't think it's good form to try and say something is buggy or broken just because a person doesn't like it.

 

Not good form to say it's broken? How is the player even supposed to know it is not broken, without looking into the matter with magnifying glass? And even if it's not "actually" broken and is exactly how it was designed, I'd argue you can still call it broken when the limitations of the game mechanics create _impression_ of brokenness. And/or lead to early demise of the player (let's also remember, in a sudden death game after investing potentially multiple hours) via contradictory messages / fear meter ramp up. So it may not actually be broken, but it acts like it is broken. This is how game criticism has worked for decades

Anyway. It is just a Halloween event as I've been saying, overhauling some of the limitations of the game just for such event and fixing this inconvenience might have been too much for too little, so it's alright. Much better to prioritize resources and time for the thing that actually matters, which is the next Survival update, which I cannot wait. And EP4 too I guess if/when it expands Survival further as well as gets the game back in peoples conciousnesses further

Edited November 3, 2020 by Mistral

[ManicManiac]

Like I said... if folks don't like it that's fine.  As I said we are all entitled to our opinions.  Something being "bugged" or "broken" is something that must be measured against the creators intentions... not just measured against personal opinion. 

So again (and I'm not sure how much more clearly I can say it):

On 11/3/2020 at 3:14 AM, ManicManiac said:

If systems are working the way that the designers intended... then by definition, it's not bugged nor is it broken.

I can try and explain it another way... If  the behavior you didn't happen to like about the Darkwaker was NOT what Hinterland intended it to be, then it would qualify as "bugged/broken"... (because it wasn't want the designers wanted).
 

1 hour ago, Mistral said:

How is the player even supposed to know it is not broken

Simple... you could ask the creator/developer if the behavior is intended or not. 
For example you can open a ticket on the support portal.

In any case, I'm not going argue with you.
I'm just speaking my mind.
I've said my piece. 

Edited November 4, 2020 by ManicManiac

[vidholf]

On 11/2/2020 at 5:54 PM, UTC-10 said:

I think whether or not the Darkwalker is in contact (<200 meters) matters when going through a transition.  If not in contact (>200 meters) the game likely defaults to putting it in the middle area of the next region or zone so laying a lure inside would then draw the DW to the entry point and if the character is at the exit point he might be able to leave without the DW getting into contact range.  

In my first 3 playthroughs, I had the same "why is it always on top of me in the tunnels?!" experience as others have posted here. On my fourth run - where I got all the badges, though settled for only 6 of 10 notes - I tried spending as little time as possible in each region. My aim was to stay ahead of, and far away from, the DW. Each time I knew I was heading to a small/confined transition or zone, I made a point of sleeping in the bigger zone (e.g. PV) just outside the entrance to the small transition (e.g. Cinder Hills mine), then booking it through the transition. This worked brilliantly, with only two close encounters during the run. In prior runs, the "on top of me" effect in small areas always happened when the DW either had been a close encounter (e.g. the distance meter pops up) shortly before transitioning, or was a close encounter as I left.