Skelegutplays

The return of the brand

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The brand shall return!!

So the ”take torch” campfire option should be replaced with a ”make brand” option. To make a brand you would need a stick and a campfire to light it on. It would burn for about 30 ingame minutes and when its burnt it should be replaced by a burnt brand, which could be burnt in a fire for 3 minutes of burn time.

#ReturnOfTheBrand

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Why would a stick burn 3X longer just because you're holding it in your hand... and then be able to be burned again in a fire for nearly another 1/3rd of the burn time of a stick that was never used as a brand?

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Why would a stick burn 3X longer just because you're holding it in your hand... and then be able to be burned again in a fire for nearly another 1/3rd of the burn time of a stick that was never used as a brand?

Well, a campfire would be way hotter and it would burn i faster.

Another fact to consider would be that the brand is only burning at the ends.

And the 3 mins burn time in the fire would be the part you hold on because who wants to get burned, right?

Edited by Skelegutplays
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Skelegutplays said:

Well, a campfire would be way hotter and it would burn i faster.

Another fact to consider would be that the brand is only burning at the ends.

And the 3 mins burn time in the fire would be the part you hold on because who wants to get burned, right?

Not buying it for this game because:  Starting a fire in a cold fireplace with a single stick (at Level 1 with a tinder plug and a wooden match; no accelerant) results in a fire that burns only for 3 minutes and only gets as hot as +1C.  Adding a second stick to that fire when there is 1 minute remaining from the original burn time, increases the fire's burn time to 8 minutes and the temperature rises to only +2C.  A brand made from sticks that are obviously this small and dry would not burn for 30 minutes nor would it likely stay burning when being waved around (i.e. brandishing) or be significant enough to scare a wolf intent on attacking you.

Currently, the torches you can draw from fires require at least, IIRC, 12 minutes of burn time on the fire.  It's RNG as to how long they will burn, but the torch I withdrew from this fire after adding another stick  burned for over 30 minutes in game (timed by adding more wood to the fire and watching the burn time clock on the fire until the torch went out).   Once burned down, I can also harvest it to get a single stick back.

Seems to me this would be a huge step back... and would do nothing to improve realism.

Edited by UpUpAway95
tupo

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1 hour ago, Skelegutplays said:

The brand shall return!!

So the ”take torch” campfire option should be replaced with a ”make brand” option. To make a brand you would need a stick and a campfire to light it on. It would burn for about 30 ingame minutes and when its burnt it should be replaced by a burnt brand, which could be burnt in a fire for 3 minutes of burn time.

#ReturnOfTheBrand

This will always get my support whenever it reemerges as a suggestion.

Brands were just better, in terms of game balance. The "take torch" mechanic is way overpowered, and totally obviates any need to craft torches from cloth and lamp oil.

The (fairly brief) period when brands were in the game was a Golden Era!

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2 minutes ago, Pillock said:

The (fairly brief) period when brands were in the game was a Golden Era!

Ehhhhh I for one will not miss the pile of burnt out brands in the corner that I could never get rid of.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Pillock said:

This will always get my support whenever it reemerges as a suggestion.

Brands were just better, in terms of game balance. The "take torch" mechanic is way overpowered, and totally obviates any need to craft torches from cloth and lamp oil.

The (fairly brief) period when brands were in the game was a Golden Era!

What I would suggest is perhaps that they add a mechanic that enables the collection of branches and that making a brand requires using a campfire to light a branch rather than a mere stick.  Alternatively, they could balance the "take torch" mechanic better by requiring at least an equivalent amount of time on the fire to the length of time the torch will burn (up to a maximum of 30 minutes).  That is, to get a 30-minute torch out of a fire, you would need to have a fire that would burn longer than 30 minutes... and taking a torch would reduce the fire's burn time by an amount equivalent to how long the torch would burn (that is, getting a 30-minute torch from a fire would cause the fire to die out 30 minutes sooner).

Edited by UpUpAway95
typo
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

Ehhhhh I for one will not miss the pile of burnt out brands in the corner that I could never get rid of.

Well. They should fix that bit, yeah.

While we're at it, I've never understood what is actually happening when we 'Harvest' a burnt out torch into a stick. A torch is just a burning stick that we pulled out of a fire. So when it isn't burning any more, it is... a stick! What is this 2 minute harvesting process?

10 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

What I would suggest is perhaps that they add a mechanic that enables the collection of branches and that making a brand requires using a campfire to light a branch rather than a mere stick.  Alternatively, they could balance the "take torch" mechanic better by requiring at least an equivalent amount of time on the fire to the length of time the torch will burn (up to a maximum of 30 minutes).  That is, to get a 30-minute torch out of a fire, you would need to have a fire that would burn longer than 30 minutes.

Sounds reasonable. Although I do miss the aesthetic of the brand compared with the torch. I'd still like to see a distinction between the two. The main thing about brands was that you couldn't relight them, which meant you couldn't harvest loads of them at once to save up and use for mine/cave transitions (or for one-match fire lighting) - you had to craft torches for that, which felt much more satisfying and made lamp oil really valuable.

Edited by Pillock
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Just now, Pillock said:

Well. They should fix that bit, yeah.

While we're at it, I've never understood what is actually happening when we 'Harvest' a burnt out torch into a stick. A torch is just a burning stick that we pulled out of a fire. So when it isn't burning any more, it is... a stick! What is this 2 minute harvesting process?

Sounds reasonable. Although I do miss the aesthetic of the brand compared with the torch. I'd still like to see a distinction between the two. The main thing about brands was that you couldn't relight them, which meant you couldn't harvest loads of them without cost to save up and use for mine/cave transitions - you had to craft torhes for that, which felt much more satisfying.

While we pull torches out of the fire in game, I don't think it's meant to be "just a burning stick."  There are many ways to manufacture a torch without the use of cloth and oil, but a common factor is that the handle of the torch is more likely to be a green sapling than a mere stick collected fromt he forest floor.  They could reskin the head of the torch you pull from the fire to look more like the cruder versions than the one the player can make with cloth and oil.  With a higher "fire time" penalty for drawing torches and a more limited burn time on the torch itself, I think it would not be as convenient to draw torches and would make it more tempting to craft torches.  However, there is already an additional draw on the amount of cloth needed in the game due to the new sprain mechanic, so I'm not sure I'd be any more inclined to craft a torch anyways.  I tend to fish and use a lantern whenever possible.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

With a higher "fire time" penalty for drawing torches and a more limited burn time on the torch itself, I think it would not be as convenient to draw torches and would make it more tempting to craft torches. 

That would go some way towards it, yeah. But they'd also have to cap the maximum condition of torches pulled from fires (right now it's pretty easy to get them at 40-50%, which is way too high, I think). And they should also not be able to be relit once they fall below a certain condition level. That might sort it out. Even then, I'd still miss the old graphic representation of brands!

 

10 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

there is already an additional draw on the amount of cloth needed in the game due to the new sprain mechanic, so I'm not sure I'd be any more inclined to craft a torch anyways

Really? I honestly don't think that factors into it at all. There are over 200 pieces of cloth in the Coastal Townsite alone, in the form of curtains and towels. That's 400 bandages. (From one small area of only one map!) How many sprains are you getting?

I never bother with lanterns except for inside my main base. They're heavy to carry and they don't have any other uses beyond light. Torches can be used to save matches when lighting fires, for transporting a flame from place to place without spending more matches, and for scaring off wolves as well. They're an incredibly useful survival tool in TLD's world and when we had to craft them out of materials (rare-ish, in the case of lamp oil), they were also incredibly valuable. Now that we can pull infinite reuseable torches from campfires at the tiny cost of a few extra bits of wood, their value is totally trivial.

I think that's a shame. And it was a backward step for the game overall.

Edited by Pillock
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1 minute ago, Pillock said:

That would go some way towards it, yeah. But they'd also have to cap the maximum condition of torches pulled from fires (right now it's pretty easy to get them at 40-50%, which is way too high, I think). And they should also not be able to be relit once they fall below a certain condition level. That might sort it out.

 

Really? I honestly don't think that factors into it at all. There are over 200 pieces of cloth in the Coastal Townsite alone, in the form of curtains and towels. That's 400 bandages. (From one small area of only one map!) How many sprains are you getting?

A lot of sprains... still too many.  However, mostly I'm going by other posts I've seen here talking about concerns over cloth for making snow shelters (which ultimately cost 4 cloth even when dismantled), repairing clothes that cannot be crafted (like underwear and socks) and bedrolls (1 to 3 cloth).  The oil cost is seldom mentioned and, as far as I can tell, using the lantern is far superior from this perspective since it doesnt degrade in condition as long as the user refills it or turns it off before it burns out on its own.   There is ample time on a fully fueled lantern to get through any of the caves in the game.  The only disadvantage is having to start an actual fire to harvest any of the deer that one can find inside some of the caves and making sure to turn off the lantern before starting such a task.

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11 hours ago, Pillock said:

 

I never bother with lanterns except for inside my main base. They're heavy to carry and they don't have any other uses beyond light. Torches can be used to save matches when lighting fires, for transporting a flame from place to place without spending more matches, and for scaring off wolves as well. They're an incredibly useful survival tool in TLD's world and when we had to craft them out of materials (rare-ish, in the case of lamp oil), they were also incredibly valuable. Now that we can pull infinite reuseable torches from campfires at the tiny cost of a few extra bits of wood, their value is totally trivial.

I think that's a shame. And it was a backward step for the game overall.

My lantern has kept my survivor from getting frostbite or becoming hypothermic more than once. They do provide a few degrees of added warmth to your "Feels Like" temp when they are lit. They are heavier, but can be lit regardless of how much show and wind is blowing in your face. That small addition of a few degrees of warmth may be all you need to keep your survivor alive for a bit, until you can get to shelter, and/or a windproof fire. The quality of the light is, to me, much better than that of a torch or flare, much cleaner, clearer, and larger radius, no sparks, no smoke, no "rose colored glasses view" of the world around you. That is balanced out by the fact that crafted torches do use less lamp oil per burn hour. Which is balanced out by not being able to light them in a blizzard. Different tools, for different tasks and situations. And again, that few degrees of added warmth from carrying a lit lantern has saved my survivor from frostbite more than once. I actually prefer the storm lantern for outdoor use, and the flare or torch for indoor use (indoor also meaning transition mines and caves, or 2 level caves), simply because it will not bow out, can be lit in horrid conditions, and gives me more warmth, until I can get somewhere safe enough to camp and make a fire to warm up.

 

Brands were also a little supernaturally creepy at times. TFW the brand is staring back at you, with 2 glowing "deblish" eyes...

20161030162905_1.thumb.jpg.a9128fc5fa27d53ad7e22e2258910468.jpg

 

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13 hours ago, ajb1978 said:

Ehhhhh I for one will not miss the pile of burnt out brands in the corner that I could never get rid of.

Far as I remember, putting it in a container would dispose of it like any other used up, unsalvageable item in the game. Problem with brands was that once burnt out and dropped, they couldn't be picked up again. And if they were dropped indoors, they wouldn't despawn.

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Nope, it's a NO from me, sorry but I prefer the TORCH.

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@UpUpAway95 & @ThePancakeLady

I wasn't intending to argue that the lantern isn't useful or doesn't have its place in the game. I do think, though, that the over-abundance easily available torches diminishes its value significantly - not to zero, but a lot lower than they were when burning brands were a part of the game.

I think that's my point, really - burning brands (or significantly nerfed pulled torches) would bring the other survival tools, like crafted torches and lanterns, much more into the mix and give the game a better balance between them.

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On 6/12/2019 at 5:00 PM, Pillock said:

That would go some way towards it, yeah. But they'd also have to cap the maximum condition of torches pulled from fires (right now it's pretty easy to get them at 40-50%, which is way too high, I think). And they should also not be able to be relit once they fall below a certain condition level. That might sort it out. Even then, I'd still miss the old graphic representation of brands!

 

Really? I honestly don't think that factors into it at all. There are over 200 pieces of cloth in the Coastal Townsite alone, in the form of curtains and towels. That's 400 bandages. (From one small area of only one map!) How many sprains are you getting?

I never bother with lanterns except for inside my main base. They're heavy to carry and they don't have any other uses beyond light. Torches can be used to save matches when lighting fires, for transporting a flame from place to place without spending more matches, and for scaring off wolves as well. They're an incredibly useful survival tool in TLD's world and when we had to craft them out of materials (rare-ish, in the case of lamp oil), they were also incredibly valuable. Now that we can pull infinite reuseable torches from campfires at the tiny cost of a few extra bits of wood, their value is totally trivial.

I think that's a shame. And it was a backward step for the game overall.

I think not being able to relight a torch would be too onerous since crafted torches are made at 100% and we should be able to relight those even when they fall below whatever threshhold you would set.  A cap on the condition of a pulled torch is what I'm suggesting along with it diminishing the equivalent amount of time on your fire.  This means that, ultimately, pulled torches are going to cost you a lot more in wood or coal (in the form of campfire burning time) than what it takes to craft them.  If we ignore the cloth and lantern fuel for now, it takes 3 sticks to craft a torch that will burn for around an hour.  If they cap a pulled torch at 50%, but have it reduce the fire's burn time by the 30 minutes that 50% torch would burn, it would cost roughly 3 sticks worth of fire... but burn for 1/2 the time as a crafted torch.  Currently, you can pull a 50% torch and it will still only reduce your campfire time by 10 minutes.

Therefore, crafting a torch will gain you roughly 30 minutes more of torchlight at the additional cost of 1 cloth and 0.10L of lantern fuel.  This means that it uses less lantern fuel than the storm lantern, which burns for 4 hours on 1L of lantern fuel.  As I said, my personal preference will likely always been to burn a storm lantern because lantern fuel is a renewable resource and cloth is not; and as long as I'm careful and don't run my storm lantern out of fuel, it won't lose condition through use.  I do realize, however, that it uses more lantern fuel per burn minute than a crafted torch.

I think all that's needed is to have the pulled torches deplete the campfire they are pulled from in direct accordance with however long that torch will burn and none of the light sources we have would be universally OP over the others.

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Posted (edited)

While I don't agree with the idea of bringing back the brand... as I feel the torch is objectively better, both aesthetically and functionally; I am however in favor of bringing back the Brandishing Mechanic:

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 8:23 PM, ManicManiac said:

- (I'd like if the team would) consider bring back the brandishing mechanic.  There is no reason why both brandishing and throwing can't be implemented.  Maybe a quick-tap right click would brandish and a right click+hold to throw?

 

Edited by ManicManiac

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