breath effect brightness/glow

[Sunwolf]

I know there have been efforts to reduce or eliminate the breath effect, especially at night.  I don't want to see that happen.

What I would like to see happen, however, is a reduction of "brightness" to the breath, particularly on dark nights without nearby light sources.  Sometimes it feels like there's an obnoxious little troll behind or to the side of me, targeting my breath cloud exclusively with a flashlight, just to piss me off and ruin my night vision.  Sometimes I think his name is "McRib" and he's stalking me, messing with me, trying to harsh my mellow and make me want to groin kick him.  Then when I turn, he ducks down behind a snowbank, a tree, a clump of air where I can't see him, giggling and pointing and recording my angst on his phone.  He's really starting to upset me.  I think I need therapy.

[Kendov]

I'd also like to note that this breath effect is completely unaffected by the enviroment. I was walking around in a snow storn during the night (-17°C windchill) but the breath still just went up and dispersed as usual where the winds should have torn it away immediately.

Same problem with bows. I'm practicing archery myself, so when I  was hunting in a storm and shot aside to let the wind carry the arrow to the deer, it only flew straight and obviously missed completely. Bug or a feature yet missing?

[Hadrian]

I. Cannot. Emphasize. Enough. How much I agree with every word from the OP.

This is the easiest change, too. Just tweak existing transparency of an already transparent set of layers by ~50%. I really hope it makes it into the coming update.

Including the troll hallucinations.

-H

[Sunwolf]

I appreciate that this was included in the December update.  I really do.  But I honestly can't tell the difference.

[stratvox]

I think it really matters a lot to people who are playing on marginal video hardware for the game. I noticed when I switch between medium and ultra that the transparency of the breath goes way up when you crank the settings. In fact, the breath can help you get a momentary glimpse of things that are otherwise too dark to see, as I'm currently noticing in my Voyageur run. I'm stuck on TWM with broken ribs after taking a beating from a moose. Oh, and I now know how to hunt them in safety... but my guy learned it the hard way . Not being able to run means that I'm having a hard time getting a regular sleep schedule going, the weather's been awful, so I'm risking cabin fever, and I've found that on my sitting around in the middle of the night in the hut while a whiteout rages that the breath effect can actually make it easier to see some details about what's around you.

[Troxism]

Yeah it was suspected it's video setting based, but that doesn't help people playing on weaker hardware very much as they can't just crank all the settings so they can see at night. Would help to know what setting specifically affects this (at the very least for testing purposes).

Either way I have to echo the sentiment that it doesn't seem like anything changed in the update in this regard, it's basically just as bad (it might be SLIGHTLY better but it's very hard to tell, point is it's still massively distracting/blinding at night). I play on Medium settings for the record.

[Wade]

UGh, could they just include this in settings so it could be turned on or off.  It is super annoying not being able to see because of your own mythical breath effect.

[RossBondReturns]

I might have one of the weakest systems on here and I have no problems at all with the breath effect.

[Sunwolf]

That's weird.  I have a system that allows me to easily crank everything to max.  I'm finding that it's blinding on very dark nights.  To be clear, I'm talking about the brightness of the breath, not necessarily the transparency.  I have no problem with the transparency.  Even at the warmest in-game temperatures the breath cloud would be significant.  It wouldn't, however, be so bright, as if it's reflecting some kind of light source, on the darkest nights or interior environments.

[Mroz4k]

Dont forget, guys, that the breath effect is really not JUST graphics - it is also meant as an indicator.

The colder weather is outside, the thicker and brighter the breath is. 

However, and this is just my theory, the more "body heat" you are losing, the brighter effect. If you walk around, well clothed and your clothes are better then the temperature outside, AND if you are not tired or encumbered, THEN the breath effect is barely noticeable. I, too, played with lowest settings on a very outdated machine, and I cant say I would have ever had much problems with breath effect. But that may also be a matter of playstyle - I learned to walk rather then run, I try to keep good energy levels up and I dont go overly encumbered anywhere. 

Sure, sometimes the breathing is in a way - and it really should be. I like it the way it is right now - it should be a detriment. Just another feature of the unforgiving Long Dark.

[Troxism]

Sadly on late game Interloper you do not have the option of being warm outside, so you have to always deal with the effect cranked to max because you are always 'cold'. But the effect of difficulty has already been mentioned in other threads, so not really new, just another reason why some people barely notice it, and some constantly complain about it.

[Mroz4k]

17 minutes ago, Troxism said:

Sadly on late game Interloper you do not have the option of being warm outside, so you have to always deal with the effect cranked to max because you are always 'cold'. But the effect of difficulty has already been mentioned in other threads, so not really new, just another reason why some people barely notice it, and some constantly complain about it.

Considering I alternate between Voyager and Interloper, dont think the difficulty has much to do with it - if anything, its the different weather conditions for those modes like you mentioned.  I was pointing out that there are a lot of variables in play with the breathing brightness. And cold is not the only variable, though it may be one of the most apparent ones - the breath is intended to work as an indication of the outside conditions.

Energy level and stamina, as well as encumberance are all very important variable in this case. Try walking around with 20 kg of just warm clothes on, dont run and have high energy - and you wont have much of a problem with the breathing brightness, even on Interloper.

[Troxism]

Those things have very little effect on the breath in my experience. I have indeed tried that, and I can't even notice a difference. I think the only difference is the breath comes SLIGHTLY less often if you exert yourself less, but it's still stupidly annoying/blinding whenever it's not very bright around you.

Either way the argument of 'it's a UI indicator' has been hashed over before, and in summary it's a pretty silly one. Other UI elements are not intrusive (infact Hinterland has intentionally REMOVED other UI elements against the wishes of some players to give less information/improve immersion). If the purpose behind it being so intrusive is so it's easily visible, it should straight up be a toggleable option, because it's so annoying it actually makes me not want to play sometimes. 

And even as a UI element it completely fails, because like I said, I can't even tell any real difference between being tired/encumbered vs not, and in terms of ambient temperature, it's still stupidly bright indoors when it's -1C ambient temp and I have +20C feels like and I'm not even cold at all. If it's supposed to show people something, it completely fails at that task. The only purpose it serves right now is to be in the way, because even the argument of immersion or realism fails because it makes no sense that the breath is glued to your face and is apparently backlit at night because somehow it's almost pure white as if it's the middle of the day. Every time I have to do anything in the dark/at night, it BREAKS my immersion, because it's so jarring and so irritating and so obviously out of place/not working according to any kind of logic either in terms of game design or 'realism'.

Edit: Even if it was significantly cut down by not being encumbered/tired/cold, to be blunt, forcing players to pace themselves via causing massive annoyance if they do not, rather then an actual gameplay mechanic/detriment, is the worst possible way to design something in a game. If the goal is to get people to not be encumbered/tired, increase the actual penalties for this, not half-blind their vision (and only at night/in dark places at that). I'm not saying that is the developer intention (I would pretty surprised if it actually was), but I have seen players floating this idea in various threads on this forum and it makes no design sense.

[Mroz4k]

I have played the game for ages, got thousands and thousands of hours logged in, and yet I never had a problem with the breathing effect. And I do distinctly see a difference in those factors. 

I also disagree with you that its a bad thing to force players to pace themselves - its not forcing you to do anything, but if you plan to run around a lot, then there is a price to pay - your visibility.

I guess this here is a matter of personal preference - because I have been on forums for a long while (far longer then just when I decided to actually join) - and I see a distinct split in a community - one side of people who have no problem with the breathing (or a very little one), and then others who cant almost stand it. I suppose this is not the issue of the game settings but personal perception. 

In that case, there really needs to be a graphical setting to tune it down. I suppose it could have a little word of advice next to it, something like:

"Be wary of tuning down the breath brightness too much, it is a useful indicator."

Hinterland was always very mindful of players and their health or perception issues - I am sure if this argument is presented as though that roughly 40% of the player community has an issue with how bright the breath is because they perceive it differently then others, they will be inclined to work on fixing that in the future.

[Troxism]

Talking about how long you have or haven't played the game in terms of the breath effect is completely pointless. The current breath effect didn't exist until the Faithful Cartographer update which is fairly recently (and don't even get me started on the UI revamp btw with all the clicking you have to do now through various menus now for things like medicine). Before that for years the breath effect was very very low key and nearly invisible (and was basically just for a small amount of immersion). So ofc nobody complained about it (or even mentioned it) before, it was totally different if you look at old videos/screenshots. When the Faithful Cartographer update came out I legitimately thought it was a bug (that it was so bright and blinding) and would be hotfixed in a week like most major issues are. Heck the reason I basically didn't play from that update leaving the test branch to launch was almost entirely the breath effect just being too annoying for me to bother when I could just go play other games that didn't seem intent on frustrating me.

Also I really don't see what the breath indicates that you can't see another way. All of the information it is supposed to inform you on is available in more direct ways through the UI on demand. And as I said, I can barely tell a difference, esp at a glance. If you wanted to tell how tired you are from the breath, you would have to check the timing between breaths (and the difference is very small so you might just get it wrong in a hurry), which actually takes longer then tapping tab or shift to check your fatigue/sprint bar (and is less accurate). If you wanted to tell air temp, well like I said it seems to be identical at -1C ambient temp and -37C at a glance. I don't even know how you would tell the difference there in practice, esp on the fly. The character voices (if you notice, your character will audibly shiver/complain at 50% freezing, plus I think at 75%/25%/10% as well) are a lot more useful in that regard in terms of giving actual reliable information (lets say you totally turned the UI off otherwise and had to rely only on the breath and voice ques), and you can actually turn those off if you want (thank god for that too because hearing for the 100th day in a row that 'I've never been so cold in my life' is silly). Yet you can't toggle the breath which is far more irritating (because even before you could disable the character voice in this update, you could just turn voice volume to 0%, although after Faithful Cartographer you would still be able to hear the echo in caves ect when doing that due to some audio bug or other). It's just confusing to me why this works the way it does.

Idk, I was really hoping when I saw the patch note about 'breath effect is more transparent at night', that it was finally being addressed. Instead as far as I can tell basically nothing changed (or if it did, it's so subtle I can't tell the difference).

[Mroz4k]

40 minutes ago, Troxism said:

Talking about how long you have or haven't played the game in terms of the breath effect is completely pointless.

No, it is not. Thought it has changed, it was deemed as annoying for a lot longer than the Cartographer update when it went through some changes. The thing is, everybody perceives it differently, and there is no way to satisfy anyone completely. Such is the way games work - everyone wants something different.

42 minutes ago, Troxism said:

Also I really don't see what the breath indicates that you can't see another way.

Now, THAT is an irrelevant point. You are right, of course, but it should be obvious that not everything needs to have just ONE way of determination. For example, there are a lot of indicators already in the game that warns the player of a weather change coming in soon. And that is how it should be, since not all indicators are always precise.

Besides, if someone wants to have as real of an experience as possible, they will on purpose not use certain indicators. You can, for example, minimize your HUD, which (I think) takes away the temperature indicators as well. Breath as an indicator has a great value in that case.

46 minutes ago, Troxism said:

Idk, I was really hoping when I saw the patch note about 'breath effect is more transparent at night', that it was finally being addressed. Instead as far as I can tell basically nothing changed (or if it did, it's so subtle I can't tell the difference).

Well, if it was supposed to change, I would say it means that it is being addressed. But you cannot expect them to get it right on a first try now, can you?

Like I said, I never had much of a problem with breathing in the game - or rather, I did at first when it became more bright, and when I adapted to a more relaxed style, those issues disappeared for me. 

You see, what you complain about is clearly highly individual. You seem to have a problem where others don't. Now, is that really an issue of the game, or not? 

Now, I want them to fine-tune it so you guys are satisfied, and who knows, maybe I will try playing with the fine-tuned changes as well, to see if I find it better... but the issue stands - this is not a problem of the game, it is not a bug, the issue is on your side, not on TLD. So relax, use some moderation, and instead of ranting on how bad and broken it is and was for a while, provide more constructive feedback, try to measure and compare changes, post screenshots or videos, do something to make sure the devs can see the issues you see and fix them. 

Because it seems to me, Devs are more like me and less like you, and it is VERY difficult to fix an "issue" that you cant see yourself. Its not unlike trying to shoot a target with a rifle while blindfolded. Give them more directions on HOW to fix it, not that they should fix it.

 

[Troxism]

I have literally never even heard anyone mention the breath effect before Faithful Cartographer on this forum, but maybe I missed a thread somewhere. Again, if you watch some old videos it's just a totally different order of magnitude.

I have already explained over and over that I have actually tried to use the breath as a UI indicator. I legitimately cannot tell the difference in most cases. I don't see how it fufills that function because of this, making it simply an annoying 'feature' to me. Maybe the reason for it is my specific video settings, my monitor, my brightness, maybe I'm just blind or an idiot, who knows.

I have already explained why it doesn't make realistic sense (not that I personally think realism should rule the game) to have it work how it does (it's too bright and sticks to your face, neither of which makes sense). 

I have explained how I don't believe it makes design sense to have it be a 'punishment', because it doesn't really fufill that goal either.

I have also already mentioned how it can be fixed, either tone it down at night even more (or give a slider to do so), because the patch doesn't seem to have changed it at all, or just allow it to be toggled (like character voices, or the entire UI currently can be) off if desired.

I have posted plenty of screenshots before in other threads and I'm sure they have been seen.

It has been months since it was changed to this, and there has been basically non stop complaining about it since then. It certainly isn't the 'first try'.

I don't even see the point of saying 'devs are more like me'. Feedback is supposed to be about pointing things out, esp things that were overlooked or missed. I'd say more on this topic/argument, but I would have to bring up some private conversations with devs for other games (not talking about TLD, or Hinterland devs) and I don't wish to violate people's confidence.

There has been plenty of constructive conversation. At this point it's just going in circles, and I think every relevant point has been made. I've tried to address every point in good faith.

I do agree I rant on this issue a lot, but this really is a deal breaker for me. This is the single feature that I dislike the most. This isn't some minor annoyance for me, and I do not exaggerate at all that it basically caused me to take a very long break from the game. I say that not to dramaticize the issue, but to point out that yes it really matters, and it's not some minor annoyance. I wouldn't waste my time posting about it so much if it was. To use a friends words, 'are you willing to die on this hill?', and for me on this issue the answer is most definitely yes.

[Kaisentlaia]

I'm beginning to think that the breath effect does indeed look different on different hardwares and settings. And to be honest, I think it's a bit bugged.

At first I noticed it was slightly more transparent at night (outside at least), and while it was still a bit too bright for my taste it was an improvement for sure. There was a full moon and no clouds so it makes sense that the breath effect is still pretty visible. But later on I noticed that in a pitch black cave it looked extremely bright, and I think that's the thing that annoys me the most. If there's no light to reflect on the condensation, how can the condensation be visible? I don't really mind not being capable to see (especially in the dark since I can't see anything already :P) but the fact that the breath effect looks like there's way more ambient light is definitely immersion breaking for me.

I don't know if the breath effect being so much brighter inside that cave than outside at night was an optical illusion due to contrast between background and breath, or if it really was brighter, but in the second case I'm pretty sure it's a bug.

[Hotzn]

I have to support @Troxism here - the breath became a problem with one of the later updates, maybe it was Faithful Cartographer. Complaints sprung up at the time from a number of players, both here and on the Steam forums, I remember that quite well. The fact that some players have a huge issue with this and some do not, in connection with the strange circumstance that Hinterland hasn't fixed this, leads me to assume that it may indeed be tied to certain rare hardware/software configurations. Maybe Hinterland has not been able to reproduce this, and we should start talking about the configurations of players who have this obstructive breath effect.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 9:12 AM, Sunwolf said:

I appreciate that this was included in the December update.  I really do.  But I honestly can't tell the difference.

Me too...

There is no difference in Ultra settings.

[cekivi]

18 hours ago, Troxism said:

and don't even get me started on the UI revamp btw with all the clicking you have to do now through various menus now for things like medicine

Personally, I'd prefer this to be fixed before the breath animation is taken care of  

[Mroz4k]

Ugh. Will try to be quick cause I am wasting ton of time making huge walls.

You are not being stupid, you are being ignorant, @Troxism . So please, turn off that rant mode for a bit, and read well what I am writing.

18 hours ago, Troxism said:

I have literally never even heard anyone mention the breath effect before Faithful Cartographer on this forum

It was definitely not that frequent, but I vaguely remember seeing it. I remember it in conjunction with a request to have an option to turn it off for performance improvement and because people felt like its obstructing their view. But, ultimately, this is not an important point.

18 hours ago, Troxism said:

I have actually tried to use the breath as a UI indicator

So did I. I can tell the difference. And it does have a value like that for me. I step outside and I dont even need to check the feels like temp to know its too cold to be there.

18 hours ago, Troxism said:

maybe I'm just blind or an idiot, who knows.

maybe its neither one of those, and you are being simply ignorant of the most simplest explanations of them all. That you were born, seeing it differently than others. Not your fault, not ours either. Point here being that this cannot be fixed if the people who can fix it cant see the problem through your eyes. Which brings me to an earlier statement - you need to convince them of this. Best way to do that is to give them a lot of FEEDBACK with references - screenshots and comparisons and like. If they are trying to fix it by trying it in the game, perhaps they cant notice the diffference themselves. Funny thing is, maybe if they can see the diffferent options on the screenshots side-by-side, with a long list of different situations that make a difference, then (because they will seee it on pictures, outside of the confines of the game) they will finally be able to see it the way you do. That is why posting screenshots is important.

I will ask you this way - did you try to post screenshots in comparison of different settings and under the same conditions at that time - like posting a screenshot of Low, medium and ultra quality settings, screenshoted in the exact same moment of breath, with individual conditions met (during same temperature, first rested stamina, later exhausted, same light) - etc...

That kind of screenshots will be invaluable for future adjustments to this setting.

18 hours ago, Troxism said:

how I don't believe it makes design sense to have it be a 'punishment',

 

Punishment is probably not a good word for it, an obstruction works better. The TLD is in many ways a game of weighting pros and cons to different things you might do.

18 hours ago, Troxism said:

non stop complaining about it since then. It certainly isn't the 'first try'.

 

Not saying it is. Also said that thought there is sizeable community that has a problem with it, there also is sizeable community which does not have a problem with it. Why is that, I suppose?

18 hours ago, Troxism said:

I have already explained why it doesn't make realistic sense

Funny thing here - I find it VERY realistic. Reminds me of the very cold winters when I was a kid, back when I didnt even have to wear glasses, and especially the nights were so cold that if you breathed while walking through an evening forest, the brigthest thing you could see was your own breath. Literally almost like it is in the game. THIS is what I mean precisely by "seeing the world differently". Barring out the point about realism being a driving force which is true and false at the same time - depends on individual scenario and preference.

18 hours ago, Troxism said:

I don't even see the point of saying 'devs are more like me'.

 

I will quote exactly what I said, AGAIN.

19 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Devs are more like me and less like you, and it is VERY difficult to fix an "issue" that you cant see yourself.

You see, what you complain about is clearly highly individual. You seem to have a problem where others don't. Now, is that really an issue of the game, or not? 

 

I dont have a problem with the breath. So does the Devs, probably. You do. So, devs (probably) see the world more like I do.

18 hours ago, Troxism said:

There has been plenty of constructive conversation. At this point it's just going in circles, and I think every relevant point has been made. I've tried to address every point in good faith.

Really? Ranting counts as good faith? I dont see you posting more screenshots now. Why dont you make more and more and more screenshots, then? Was every relevant point really made? Because I see people bring up the same "possible causes" but not considering the "possible causes" mentioned by others. Not a single person here seems to be capable of admitting that perhaps, the issue is in THEM, not in the game. And in their own perception.

If we were able to do that, consider it a possibility, we could have more constructive conversation on THAT topic, which could lead to an ALTERNATE ways of dealing with it.

19 hours ago, Troxism said:

I do agree I rant on this issue a lot, but this really is a deal breaker for me.

Then stop ranting and do something to fix it. Because if you tried, and its been adressed but still an issue, you havent tried hard enough yet.

We can do that, together. If we all work together, instead of argue over stupid individual points.

[Mroz4k]

Okay, now when I have gotten that out of the way, I will one last time remind you all of something:
You view of everything in a world is unique. So never assume that what you see is the same thing that others see as well. This is not something bad, but if history says anything, the view of a world is the oldest cause of any human argument ever made. In medicine, they try to teach you this, to be more accepting of a fact that others see things differently. And a fact that most people are unable to comprehend this simple fact.

First of all, I would like to agree on some sort of "test" - for screenshots. If we want to fix this issue, we need to precisely identify where the issue is. Best way to do that, in my opinion, is to set up a test which will result of making of 1 screenshot per specific condition, and then compiling them together so it is possible to compare them side-by-side.

here is what I suggest:

Load a moderate game - let's say Stalker, to give ourselves a same basis. Load it on Mystery Lake because we know ML has the least crazy weather differences of all places. Move around the game, and rest so you will be around 9 AM in the morning, on a clear or cloudy day. Note down if its clear, or cloudy weather outside. Strip the avatar naked. Note down the feels like temperature, and save the game by going in and out.

Now it is time to start doing tests.

Put on lowest graphics possible. Turn the breath brightness all the way up. Take a screenshot of a "peak of breathing" (the moment when the breath is the brightest) while being well rested, and with full stamina (sprint meter). Now, sprint around, make a same screenshot when the stamina bar is completely exhausted.

Quit the game without saving.

Load it again. Do the same exact thing, two screenshots, but this time, set the settings to medium.

Repeat for Ultra settings too.

Now, start the game again from that same spot as before, and now set the breath brightness all the way down.

Repeat all the steps with individual graphics settings, and with full/empty stamina.

Post all of your screenshots and the "weather conditions" in this post, side-by-side. If you cant edit it all together, just post it, I think I will be able to put them together. 

This will give us 12 different screenshots of different conditions. If you can precisely "hit" the screenshot button at the peak of a breath, of course. Might take a few tries, but thats ok - post only the ones where it seems to be the most brightest.

With this done by at least three people, we will all have better idea of how these "settings" change in individual scenarios, and if people here on forums compare them, perhaps we will be step closer to figuring out where the issue really is, and this may provide us with a way to fix it which we can present to the Hinterland.