Temporarily Removing the Cougar

[Pyroxene]

Oh no! I really wanted to see the cougar, at least once.

[hozz1235]

This is surprising.  I haven't been keeping up on the forums so am not aware of all the feedback.  Personally, I didn't think the cougar was that bad.  It is avoidable, if you so wish.  I was a bit confused on how long it was taking for it to attack me - I think I waited 5 days.  

Kudos to Raph and HL team for responding to the (overwhelming?) feedback.  I look forward to the revisions!

[RossBondReturns]

1 hour ago, Pyroxene said:

Oh no! I really wanted to see the cougar, at least once.

It will be back just refined.

And hopefully if huntable insanely difficult to hunt.

Edited June 28 by RossBondReturns

[Ghurcb]

54 minutes ago, hozz1235 said:

Personally, I didn't think the cougar was that bad.  It is avoidable, if you so wish.

I mean... "It is avoidable" is not the best compliment one could give to a feature that was so anticipated. I'm sure, after Hinterland rework the cougar, it will become a feature no one would ever want to disable.

[rush247]

@Sherri, I believe the instant black screen after the attack is a bug, I'm not seeing it in every video, but quite a few.  Fading is what's supposed to happen.

Edited June 28 by rush247

[krikennoxid]

I haven't had a chance to play the new update so can't chime in on how the Cougar works nor do I think I'll be able to let 20 days pass before it is removed, but I'm confident Hinterland will do a fine job revamping it. In "real life" a cougar is a solitary ambush predator so it shouldn't be a predator that is on patrol.  I don't think Hinterland was that far off from implementation. 

Here's some feedback for consideration: I think players should run the risk of an encounter if you are hunting/harvesting animals while in their territory and/or during crepuscular timeframes regardless how many days you've been in a region.

Also, is it just me or does the cougar appear thin/famished? I've seen them on trail cameras before and the cats seem bulky. Perhaps younger cats are not as stocky. I don't know if that was by design or not, but thought I'd point it out.

Keep up the good work Hinterland!

[Raphael van Lierop]

5 hours ago, Leeanda said:

🥺.     For the team and for the cougar... I saw nothing wrong with it.....oh well. obviously in the minority..

Thank you for the time and effort you've already put in to it..💗

I don't necessarily think you were in the minority. It's generally true that we hear more from people who don't like something than people who do. This is why it's important -- even if it's uncomfortable -- for people who enjoy something the way it is to speak up and say so. Otherwise it's very hard to get a true sense of sentiment. Even since we announced pulling the Cougar we have a massive influx of people who say "wait, I like it exactly like it is!". Where were you when everyone was yelling about how much they hated it?

In game communities, you have to protect the things you love as much as talk about the things you don't love. "You get the behaviour you focus on" is a good adage here. If you really like something, let us know!

[Gracia_WolfSlayer]

I love Hinterland and The Long Dark. This has been my favorite game, unchallenged, for well on 8 years now. I play other games Fallout, Green Hell, the Forest(ect) , but when asked what my favorite game of all time is? I never hesitate, it's The Long Dark.

The cougar was a fun addition to the game. It wasn't exactly what I expected, but overall I was happy for new content that added to the experience. I think the countdown/Hud indicators were my biggest rub, but I was willing to move past it (like the Timber Wolf meter, not the biggest fan of UI like that in an otherwise very immersive gaming experience)

I hate that the Dev team felt the need to pull it. If it's because they appreciated the genuine feedback and wanted to rework it, then I'm fine. But I'm sick with worry that they felt bullied and underappreciated. They worked really hard on this update, gave it to us and it was not enjoyed or received how they'd have hoped.

I hope Raph and the rest of the Dev know we appreciate them (or at least most of us do). You are all doing a fantastic job. ❤️ Hang in there.

[Raphael van Lierop]

Re; timers/HUD indicators. It's not that I think these are always the best tools for providing player feedback (that much should be obvious given how much other info we push into diegetic systems over the years), but in general the more dangerous something is for the player, the more info we have to put front and centre to avoid them feeling frustrated at failure.

Too little feedback is worse than too much, especially in a permadeath game. Our approach with the Cougar was to use multiple layers of feedback to ensure the player had plenty of warning, precisely because once the Cougar attacks you can't avoid it. But, once the Cougar attacks, you will have seen/heard so many warnings that it's almost like...you deserve it at that point? 

The Cougar wasn't intended to be an animal people eagerly wait to interact with, but rather one they do their best to avoid. I've encountered Cougars in real life and it's honestly it is a terrifying experience, much worse than bears or anything else you might find scary in your mind. That was the experience and mindset that we brought to the original Cougar design.

I'm not saying that can't be done without "in your face" UI stuff, but it's much harder to guarantee the player will see and understand the warnings. And before anyone says "just make the UI/HUD stuff optional", trust me that is never really a great solution for a variety of reasons and we try not to do that, not the least because it only reinforces a culture where everyone expects every small detail of the game to cater to their precise and specific tastes, which is impossible and not a recipe for creating great games or great art, which is what we aspire to.

[Leeanda]

6 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I don't necessarily think you were in the minority. It's generally true that we hear more from people who don't like something than people who do. This is why it's important -- even if it's uncomfortable -- for people who enjoy something the way it is to speak up and say so. Otherwise it's very hard to get a true sense of sentiment. Even since we announced pulling the Cougar we have a massive influx of people who say "wait, I like it exactly like it is!". Where were you when everyone was yelling about how much they hated it?

In game communities, you have to protect the things you love as much as talk about the things you don't love. "You get the behaviour you focus on" is a good adage here. If you really like something, let us know!

My apologies..  I should've said seems like...    I did notice ,after the event, that people came forward to say it's great as is... 

It might've been nice to hear it before,but I'm sure they had their reasons.. whatever they were..

As I said though..I liked it ,and I hope it comes back soon.snarling and claws ready..

 

[deliaziz]

The most necessary addition to the game was Puma or something similar.  In nature, it is the upper link of the food chain that you need to adjust your entire survival plan accordingly.  In that sense, I think it was a great move.  In fact, I think what's wrong with the game so far is not the Puma, which protects its territory just like in nature, silently attacks, and is a dangerous predator (it doesn't even announce its arrival, I think it was added for the playability of the game);  The wolves that do not attack as long as you keep their distance are the bears that cannot detect you at a distance of 100 meters.  You know that you cannot get rid of the wolves by pretending to throw stones.  
I play the game to test my ability to adapt to the wild, as long as it doesn't conflict with reality.  Thinking about what would actually happen, I try to hide when I see a wolf and move away when I see a bear.  If there was a cougar in the game, I would of course try to save my life by following the rules that would also apply in real life.
Of course Raphael listened to the wishes of the People, I understand that.  I hope Puma comes back soon.
Until then, I would like to ask those who do not want a Puma to think about this: Do you want to adapt to wild nature?  Would you like nature to adapt to you?  Interesting!

PS: It is surrounded by translation.  Sorry for any possible errors

[Raphael van Lierop]

6 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

My apologies..  I should've said seems like...    I did notice ,after the event, that people came forward to say it's great as is... 

It might've been nice to hear it before,but I'm sure they had their reasons.. whatever they were..

As I said though..I liked it ,and I hope it comes back soon.snarling and claws ready..

 

For sure -- and I would assume the main reason is when you see/hear a lot of very vocal, angry (even hostile) people attacking a feature or the development team, it takes a lot to step up and say "hey, maybe we should take a breath here". I think this is why it's so important -- and we are so fortunate -- to have a well moderated community in these forums, a place where there can be respectful disagreements about stuff. That way everyone feels like it's ok to share their opinion, including dissenting ones. You often see it when people really love a thing -- there's always someone who pops up to say "well, I think it sucks, why is everyone so happy about this?". It's very hard for people to go the other direction.

It's not that I expect or want people to put themselves into uncomfortable situations to try to "defend" us or anything. I'm only talking about features or content people like, and speaking up to say so. The main point here is that when you have a community that is generally hostile or taken over by pushy, loud people, it's impossible for quieter people to feel comfortable sharing their point of view. This is why we try so hard to nurture a different tone on these forums -- different from Steam, different from Reddit. People there feel like the folks preferring to spend their time in these forums do so because they are Hinterland sycophants or something (clearly not the case), but I think it's more likely because...this isn't such a noisy, hostile place.

Shout out to @ManicManiac and @Leeanda for everything they do (often behind the scenes) to help keep this place civil and "safe" for people who may not always feel they can speak up and share their opinions in other forums that don't welcome their voices. ❤️

[Dan_]

For listening to player base feedback. It takes guts to pull away something your team worked very hard for.

Mad respect. 

[Amir]

That's why Hinterland is one of the best game developers ever! The fact that you listen to the players' feedback and act on it this quickly means a lot!

With or without cougar, The Long Dark is amazing. I love it and I love Hinterland💙

[Leeanda]

36 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

For sure -- and I would assume the main reason is when you see/hear a lot of very vocal, angry (even hostile) people attacking a feature or the development team, it takes a lot to step up and say "hey, maybe we should take a breath here". I think this is why it's so important -- and we are so fortunate -- to have a well moderated community in these forums, a place where there can be respectful disagreements about stuff. That way everyone feels like it's ok to share their opinion, including dissenting ones. You often see it when people really love a thing -- there's always someone who pops up to say "well, I think it sucks, why is everyone so happy about this?". It's very hard for people to go the other direction.

It's not that I expect or want people to put themselves into uncomfortable situations to try to "defend" us or anything. I'm only talking about features or content people like, and speaking up to say so. The main point here is that when you have a community that is generally hostile or taken over by pushy, loud people, it's impossible for quieter people to feel comfortable sharing their point of view. This is why we try so hard to nurture a different tone on these forums -- different from Steam, different from Reddit. People there feel like the folks preferring to spend their time in these forums do so because they are Hinterland sycophants or something (clearly not the case), but I think it's more likely because...this isn't such a noisy, hostile place.

Shout out to @ManicManiac and @Leeanda for everything they do (often behind the scenes) to help keep this place civil and "safe" for people who may not always feel they can speak up and share their opinions in other forums that don't welcome their voices. ❤️

I can understand that.. the same as trying to deal with bullies.. we sit back and say nothing for fear of backlash..   (speaking from personal experience there)..  

I think it's more how you say something that can make all the difference,but no-one deserves to be made to feel their opinions are worthless or shouldn't be said for fear of attack..

And that's one of the main reasons I volunteered to be a moderator....  If I can help keep this a safe welcoming place for EVERYONE then I'm happy to do it...

And thank you for the mention...   😊 

 

Edit.... And to help the team of course...   

It's like a family to me being here.....  I probably spend more time here than with my own family actually 😁

Edited June 28 by Leeanda

[Ghurcb]

26 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I don't necessarily think you were in the minority. It's generally true that we hear more from people who don't like something than people who do. This is why it's important -- even if it's uncomfortable -- for people who enjoy something the way it is to speak up and say so. Otherwise it's very hard to get a true sense of sentiment. Even since we announced pulling the Cougar we have a massive influx of people who say "wait, I like it exactly like it is!". Where were you when everyone was yelling about how much they hated it?

In game communities, you have to protect the things you love as much as talk about the things you don't love. "You get the behaviour you focus on" is a good adage here. If you really like something, let us know!

I honestly think that trying to figure out exactly what the majority of the players want is a Sisyphean task with all the silent majorities and loud minorities. That doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to feedback, of course not. But you should consider it in terms of points being made, not the sheer volume. If the developer finds the points compelling, thinking the proposed changes would be better for the game, they should implement the changes, no matter how few or many people want it.

Hinterland listen to their community, that's why there's a Wish List section on this forum. But not every suggestion from there gets implemented. Not every one that gets 10 upvotes, not even every one that gets a hundred of them. Game development is art and art should not be made based on the majority vote.

I gave my opinion on the Cougar mechanic, made some points, and invited discussion. But it's not my game to make, and the most I could hope for is for my opinion to be seen and either be rejected or accepted.

[Talavaj]

I suggest for the knife and hat to be removed from the game entirely.
I think cougar carves should not have a functional purpose, perhaps give us a cosmetic rug or a cougar head trophy instead.
Right now the items provide too much of an incentive for players to hunt the cougar, and I think that's antithetical to its core design.

If there IS to be an incentive, I think it should be connected to the cougar interacting with the world.
Perhaps make the cougar go around progressively wiping out the wildlife in your area, leaving clues for the player and also griefing them the longer they stay (or postpone destroying its den).

[Baltazar]

I really like HL listen to the community to change the cougar, but I think it should be in the game for 1-2 weeks, (or more) a lot of us, like myself, didnt even have a chance to test it out.

[kozka5]

I must admit, that you as the studio, don't stop to surprise me. I really much apreciate your ability to listen to the players and their constructive feedback, in my opinion the implemantation of the couguar wasn't the best and I'm really happy that you've decided to give it another go. I just wanted to share my support for your decision and you're bery good attitude towards the players and their feedback. Good luck to the whole studio with the rework of the couguar and further updates, you're an awesome studio.

[Ronger97]

3 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Re; timers/HUD indicators. It's not that I think these are always the best tools for providing player feedback (that much should be obvious given how much other info we push into diegetic systems over the years), but in general the more dangerous something is for the player, the more info we have to put front and centre to avoid them feeling frustrated at failure.

Too little feedback is worse than too much, especially in a permadeath game. Our approach with the Cougar was to use multiple layers of feedback to ensure the player had plenty of warning, precisely because once the Cougar attacks you can't avoid it. But, once the Cougar attacks, you will have seen/heard so many warnings that it's almost like...you deserve it at that point? 

The Cougar wasn't intended to be an animal people eagerly wait to interact with, but rather one they do their best to avoid. I've encountered Cougars in real life and it's honestly it is a terrifying experience, much worse than bears or anything else you might find scary in your mind. That was the experience and mindset that we brought to the original Cougar design.

I'm not saying that can't be done without "in your face" UI stuff, but it's much harder to guarantee the player will see and understand the warnings. And before anyone says "just make the UI/HUD stuff optional", trust me that is never really a great solution for a variety of reasons and we try not to do that, not the least because it only reinforces a culture where everyone expects every small detail of the game to cater to their precise and specific tastes, which is impossible and not a recipe for creating great games or great art, which is what we aspire to.

EDIT: I've been informed my tone in this comes off as offensive and Insulting. I want to clarify I do not mean any of this to be an attack or insult on Ralph, his team at hinterland, or any of the staff working here on the Forums. 


There are a few issues I see with these comments. 

The first comment about 'The more dangerous something is for the player, the more info we put front and center to avoid them feeling frustrated'. The issues I have with this line is theirs way more dangerous things than even OG cougar that have WAY less notification. For instance, the Cold. The cold is supposed to be the GREATEST killer of great bear, yet you have to manually dig through menu's to find the exact temperature. And lets not mention how you can easily freeze to death while sleeping, and unless your playing an easier difficulty the game gives you NO warning ahead of time. Im sure many players have experienced this mistake. 

And speaking of mistakes, the line 'the more info we have to put front and centre to avoid them feeling frustrated at failure.' Didn't you say in previous videos, including the most recent one talking about the Cheat death system, that one major aspect of the game is you EXPECT players to die and learn from their mistakes? In fact your exact quote is:

"The Entire experience of TLD survival systems have always been designed and tuned around the expectation that Players will die, sometimes frequently." 

The idea that the cougar needs so much onboard indications because you wish to avoid players feeling frustrated is counterintuitive to this statement, as it does it's best to make sure the player CAN'T die from the cougar. As you say later 'you will have seen/heard so many warnings that it's almost like...you deserve it at that point?' 

And to circle back, this update gives the Cheat Death system. So players now can risk dying to the Cougar without risking their entire save, giving them literally three times the chance per run than any player previously had in a game to experiment, learn what works and what doesn't, without loosing their save file. 

And finally, the 'not the least because it only reinforces a culture where everyone expects every small detail of the game to cater to their precise and specific tastes, which is impossible and not a recipe for creating great games or great art, which is what we aspire to.' 

Im sorry but, speaking personally? The front loaded UI and lack of immersion with the entire cougar system seems entirely antithetical to this statement. You wanted the terrifying experience of the cougar encounter you had introduced into the game, And I appreciate that! But honestly I'm not allowed to be terrified of the OG cougar. Im not allowed to encounter it unless I'm specifically brave/stupid enough to ignore all the warnings... how can I be terrified of something I either am not smart enough to understand to the point its my fault it attacks, or engage with it *willingly*. 

Art, looking up its definition on Google, is defined as: the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
The OG cougar shows little creative skill or imagination, and it shows little emotional power. Again these are just my personal thoughts. 

So please, Raphael, can you explain to me these contradictions? and how you view the OG implementation via your personal thoughts on what Art is? Thank you

Edited June 28 by Ronger97
Post came off too insulting than intended

[Ghurcb]

46 minutes ago, Ronger97 said:

There are a few issues I see with these comments. 

The first comment about 'The more dangerous something is for the player, the more info we put front and center to avoid them feeling frustrated'. The issues I have with this line is theirs way more dangerous things than even OG cougar that have WAY less notification. For instance, the Cold. The cold is supposed to be the GREATEST killer of great bear, yet you have to manually dig through menu's to find the exact temperature. And lets not mention how you can easily freeze to death while sleeping, and unless your playing an easier difficulty the game gives you NO warning ahead of time. Im sure many players have experienced this mistake. 

And speaking of mistakes, the line 'the more info we have to put front and centre to avoid them feeling frustrated at failure.' Didn't you say in previous videos, including the most recent one talking about the Cheat death system, that one major aspect of the game is you EXPECT players to die and learn from their mistakes? In fact your exact quote is:

"The Entire experience of TLD survival systems have always been designed and tuned around the expectation that Players will die, sometimes frequently." 

The idea that the cougar needs so much onboard indications because you wish to avoid players feeling frustrated is counterintuitive to this statement, as it does it's best to make sure the player CAN'T die from the cougar. As you say later 'you will have seen/heard so many warnings that it's almost like...you deserve it at that point?' 

And to circle back, this update gives the Cheat Death system. So players now can risk dying to the Cougar without risking their entire save, giving them literally three times the chance per run than any player previously had in a game to experiment, learn what works and what doesn't, without loosing their save file. 

And finally, the 'not the least because it only reinforces a culture where everyone expects every small detail of the game to cater to their precise and specific tastes, which is impossible and not a recipe for creating great games or great art, which is what we aspire to.' 

Im sorry but, speaking personally? The front loaded UI and lack of immersion with the entire cougar system seems entirely antithetical to this statement. You wanted the terrifying experience of the cougar encounter you had introduced into the game, And I appreciate that! But honestly I'm not allowed to be terrified of the OG cougar. Im not allowed to encounter it unless I'm specifically brave/stupid enough to ignore all the warnings... how can I be terrified of something I either am not smart enough to understand to the point its my fault it attacks, or engage with it *willingly*. 

Art, looking up its definition on Google, is defined as: the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
The OG cougar shows little creative skill or imagination, and it shows little emotional power. Again these are just my personal thoughts. 

So please, Raphael, can you explain to me these contradictions? and how you view the OG implementation via your personal thoughts on what Art is? Thank you

Hey. You're being a bit too harsh here. I too think that Cougar-HUD held the player's hand more than any other system in the survival game did before. 

But

If you present your points in such a confrontational manner, they are likely to be ignored. And, I'm afraid, neither Raphael nor anyone else in Hinterland have to explain anything to you, be it contradictions or the definition of art.

Edited June 28 by Ghurcb

[Ronger97]

2 minutes ago, Ghurcb said:

Hey. You're being a bit too harsh here. I too think that Cougar-HUD held the player's hand more than any other system in the survival game did before. 

But

If you present your points in such a confrontational manner, they are likely to be ignored. And, I'm afraid, neither Raphael nor anyone else in Hinterland have to explain anything to you.

Alright, can you tell me how I can convey the same points in a less confrontational manner?

[Leeanda]

45 minutes ago, Ronger97 said:

There are a few issues I see with these comments. 

The first comment about 'The more dangerous something is for the player, the more info we put front and center to avoid them feeling frustrated'. The issues I have with this line is theirs way more dangerous things than even OG cougar that have WAY less notification. For instance, the Cold. The cold is supposed to be the GREATEST killer of great bear, yet you have to manually dig through menu's to find the exact temperature. And lets not mention how you can easily freeze to death while sleeping, and unless your playing an easier difficulty the game gives you NO warning ahead of time. Im sure many players have experienced this mistake. 

And speaking of mistakes, the line 'the more info we have to put front and centre to avoid them feeling frustrated at failure.' Didn't you say in previous videos, including the most recent one talking about the Cheat death system, that one major aspect of the game is you EXPECT players to die and learn from their mistakes? In fact your exact quote is:

"The Entire experience of TLD survival systems have always been designed and tuned around the expectation that Players will die, sometimes frequently." 

The idea that the cougar needs so much onboard indications because you wish to avoid players feeling frustrated is counterintuitive to this statement, as it does it's best to make sure the player CAN'T die from the cougar. As you say later 'you will have seen/heard so many warnings that it's almost like...you deserve it at that point?' 

And to circle back, this update gives the Cheat Death system. So players now can risk dying to the Cougar without risking their entire save, giving them literally three times the chance per run than any player previously had in a game to experiment, learn what works and what doesn't, without loosing their save file. 

And finally, the 'not the least because it only reinforces a culture where everyone expects every small detail of the game to cater to their precise and specific tastes, which is impossible and not a recipe for creating great games or great art, which is what we aspire to.' 

Im sorry but, speaking personally? The front loaded UI and lack of immersion with the entire cougar system seems entirely antithetical to this statement. You wanted the terrifying experience of the cougar encounter you had introduced into the game, And I appreciate that! But honestly I'm not allowed to be terrified of the OG cougar. Im not allowed to encounter it unless I'm specifically brave/stupid enough to ignore all the warnings... how can I be terrified of something I either am not smart enough to understand to the point its my fault it attacks, or engage with it *willingly*. 

Art, looking up its definition on Google, is defined as: the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
The OG cougar shows little creative skill or imagination, and it shows little emotional power. Again these are just my personal thoughts. 

So please, Raphael, can you explain to me these contradictions? and how you view the OG implementation via your personal thoughts on what Art is? Thank you

I was going to rephrase it.. but yes I find it insulting..and confrontational..just from the tone itself.

But to say that it isn't art is just your opinion..  and doesn't need to be explained by htl..

Honestly if you've played it,how can you say they don't know what art is?   It's a masterpiece in my eyes.does that mean I'm wrong too.

Plus as Google doesn't say,art is open to interpretation..

 

 

 

[Ronger97]

1 minute ago, Leeanda said:

I was going to rephrase it.. but yes I find it insulting..and confrontational..just from the tone itself.

But to say that it isn't art is just your opinion..  and doesn't need to be explained by htl..

Honestly if you've played it,how can you say they don't know what art is?   It's a masterpiece in my eyes.does that mean I'm wrong too.

Plus as Google doesn't say,art is open to interpretation..

 

 

 

I never said that they don't know what art is? I specifically said the OG cougar, in my own opinion, isn't very artistic because if fails to inspire the emotions in me that are trying to be conveyed. If art is different for you? That's entirely okay! Art is entirely subjective. 

As for the insulting and confrontational bit.. Im sorry? I don't know what else to say. That's just my tone of writing. You could LOOSELY say its confrontational, but I didn't intend it to be hostile. The entire purpose of these forums is to allow communication and discussion right? In order to do both, you have to say things that are antagonistic to some degree, as being an antagonist is to challenge the opposing party. And Antagonists don't have to be villains at all! Rivals make wonderful antagonists too, challenging the protagonist while still being on the same side and wanting the best for said party. 

And of course I never meant to insult. I won't attack any Hinterland staff for personal reasons. The only thing I comment on is specifically the art created and the product delivered, and as a member of this community, I think I have a right to do both? 

 

[Hazelnut]

2 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I don't necessarily think you were in the minority. It's generally true that we hear more from people who don't like something than people who do. This is why it's important -- even if it's uncomfortable -- for people who enjoy something the way it is to speak up and say so. Otherwise it's very hard to get a true sense of sentiment. Even since we announced pulling the Cougar we have a massive influx of people who say "wait, I like it exactly like it is!". Where were you when everyone was yelling about how much they hated it?

In game communities, you have to protect the things you love as much as talk about the things you don't love. "You get the behaviour you focus on" is a good adage here. If you really like something, let us know!

I did post in support before the pulling, but too quietly I guess and without much company. (did see a couple other similar support posts) It's the issue with modern day direct communication I suppose, which while wonderful in many ways, does cause loud voices to get heard above the rest since there's so much noise. I mean when there's 1000's of players and only 10's of devs, the temptation to voice extreme opinions just to be heard is quite strong. I spent several hours writing up my experiences and feedback on the DLC earlier this year, but I have no idea if anyone at Hinterland even read it. So I get the temptation to be louder, but try to resist the temptation myself.

Anyway, my advice to Hinterland would be to refine the Cougar until you're more happy with it and not to feel that any one opinion of us players is something you have to go with against your judgement. I'm sure you'll do a great job and look forward to the return of the Cougar.

I'm running back out of the new region again to lick my wounds since things went south (2nd stim use to avoid death of this 270 day Loper run! Squeaky bum time there for sure!) so it'll be a while before Cougar readiness I suspect. Anyway having a load of fun with the update, thanks all at Hinterland.