“Mountain Goating” feels like it cheapens the game

[piddy3825]

8 hours ago, Razum said:

My points:
#1 Why is goating even possible? Please call me out, if you can savely stand on a wall tilted 5 degrees from vertical. With crampons maybe, but without you would just slide down. And also: you wouldn't be able to land on such terrain.

#2 Assuming goating is possible, why does goating take more calories than sliding down a rope? Did you see goats climbing around on steep walls (like a dam)? Even for them it's difficult. Why should it be less energy consuming to goat down (take fall by fall on uneven terrain). With a rope you just need to hold on to it [https://youtu.be/8p8iUWe1LjY?t=646 short research: It's called a rappel and you don't even need carabiners or other equipment than a rope, but it helps] So you don't need much energy at all to go down. This isn't really reflected in the game, but should be in my opinion.

This wouldn't make crampons worthless, as you would still have better grip upwards and save energy due to that.

 

The climbing aspect of the game is indeed severly imbalanced in every way concievable!  Growing up in the Bavarian Alps, I learned quite a bit about mountaineering and rappeling in particular was definitely my favorite activity.  So much easier to get down bouncing down the wall than climbing up hand over hand that's for sure.  I think who ever designed the climbing system mechanics had probably been bullied in jr. high school by a gung-ho wrestling coach who was determined to make the fat kid climb the rope in the gynasium to the top and back down again before he was allowed to graduate!  

Maybe, if we are lucking the modding community can revamp the climbing mechanics to include rappeling as another method for descent.  I'd like also to see the ability of hauling my backpack up using a secondary lenght of rope, kinda the same way the dumbwaiter worked in my grandmothers old 3 story house.

[UpUpAway95]

9 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

The climbing aspect of the game is indeed severly imbalanced in every way concievable!  Growing up in the Bavarian Alps, I learned quite a bit about mountaineering and rappeling in particular was definitely my favorite activity.  So much easier to get down bouncing down the wall than climbing up hand over hand that's for sure.  I think who ever designed the climbing system mechanics had probably been bullied in jr. high school by a gung-ho wrestling coach who was determined to make the fat kid climb the rope in the gynasium to the top and back down again before he was allowed to graduate!  

Maybe, if we are lucking the modding community can revamp the climbing mechanics to include rappeling as another method for descent.  I'd like also to see the ability of hauling my backpack up using a secondary lenght of rope, kinda the same way the dumbwaiter worked in my grandmothers old 3 story house.

I'd like to see the fixed ropes eliminated and the character able to free climb so that the player is able to choose their own routes throughout the game world.  It's not going to happen though.

[Razum]

Goat on dam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG9TMn1FJzc
Of course, this doesn't work for every dam.

Okay, soloing. Still, why do you save energy in comparison to using a rope? IRL Soloing is not only risky but very energy consuming (while rapelling isn't).
If goating was meant to be climbing down the rock, it should at least be animated like it's not just walking down. Being able to normally walk on a 80% ledge (only taking sprain risk) doesn't reflect that in any way.

[Bearimpaler101]

Yeah the sprain risk should be upside down it lets you stick to baseicly  anything including downward facing rocks

[Dogelsagod]

I agree I have does this in the past and it does make the game feel a bit more dull

[Bearimpaler101]

Unless you're like why I've gone upside down I can cling on to that oh no I can't and now I'm at 6%health

[UpUpAway95]

9 hours ago, Razum said:

Goat on dam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG9TMn1FJzc
Of course, this doesn't work for every dam.

Okay, soloing. Still, why do you save energy in comparison to using a rope? IRL Soloing is not only risky but very energy consuming (while rapelling isn't).
If goating was meant to be climbing down the rock, it should at least be animated like it's not just walking down. Being able to normally walk on a 80% ledge (only taking sprain risk) doesn't reflect that in any way.

Those are real goats on a real dam.  What I said was that it was not possible for a player to goat down the dam in TLD (i.e. specifically, the Carter Hydro Dam).  To support the fact that the devs have intentionally designed "goat paths" into the game, I cited the path down from Miner's Folly.  There is also an intentional goat path down from the HIgh Meadow area that enables the player to reach loot on a ledge that cannot be reached any other way.  There is also a goat path down from the back exit of the gold mine to reach a body that frequently spawns on a rock ledge between that exit and the rope below the mine itself.   After taking that short goat path, the player can successfullly also goat down beside that rope, although it is likely not an "official" goat path.  The character is also very likely to be injured on that descent, but I feel the player should be "allowed" to take those sorts of risks when they feel it appropriate to do so and I don't feel it "cheapens" the game.

I made no comment about the relative energy consumption between going up and down the ropes in the game and "goating" in the game.  What I said was that the actions required to descend a rock face and the existence of hand holds and foot holds in a natural rock face were not rendered in the game... giving the appearance that the player is walking down a sheer and completely smooth vertical "wall."  However, there are many actions done by the player within the game that are not animated.  For example, we assume that the player gathers snow in a container for melting it into water without ever seeing him/her go outside to collect that said snow.

Regarding the energy consumption - HL can rebalance that at any time.  I truly have no opinion on it.

Edited February 23, 2022 by UpUpAway95

[Bearimpaler101]

Today I emptied my rifle into a bear in hrv  and it ran at me so I fell into a flat rock and it went under me but couldn't get me haha sucker

[Kranium]

Just read through this thread & realized that most people here are professional solo free climbers not just average Joes.

[mfuegemann]

I do find goating down acceptable, as we are not able to drop items off a cliff and the carrying weight barrier - especially on downward climbs - feels quite artificial.
Going down, even lowering Your complete backpack with the climbing rope would be feasible and done in real life.
 

[Lexilogo]

18 hours ago, mfuegemann said:

I do find goating down acceptable, as we are not able to drop items off a cliff and the carrying weight barrier - especially on downward climbs - feels quite artificial.
Going down, even lowering Your complete backpack with the climbing rope would be feasible and done in real life.
 

IIRC you can actually drop items down cliffs, the drop function from inventory doesn't check if you're dropping your item down a large height. You just have to be extremely precise and make sure you're on a segment of the cliff that has a direct path downward to the floor so it doesn't get caught on a ledge.

Anyway, I think I agree with the idea that the problem isn't really goating down, so much as it is using the rope to go down is an artificially punishing process to the point where goating feels like too good of an alternative. The ability to haul inventory items down for a calorie + time cost, and just speeding up + lowering resource consumption for descending climbs, would both help a lot

[desertedone]

On 2/3/2022 at 4:48 PM, Blindsp t said:

Do you guys think it’s kind of dumb that almost every single rope climb can essentially be bypassed if going down? It kind of cheapens the experience that we can do some crazy acrobatics down elevations in this game with perhaps only some sprains as a result when the game tries very hard to aim for stylized realism. 
 

And sure, you could play the game as though you couldn’t do this, but really I think anyone would do this strategy if the time and energy savings were worth it especially if the save was at risk.

 

Would be nice if these cliffs were much steeper or possibly if landing on rocks that are not flat on top made you lose control as if slipping on ice.

If you're playing on Interloper it's a pretty big risk especially when your game auto saves when you get a sprain. Sometimes I do it and still get a sprain when I hop off a small incline at the end as if the game was counting and adding all my small hops down so you're kind of cheesing it but cheesing has it's big risks. It's a good pay off but also high risk. I would say it's basically a skill with high risk vs. safety down rope. Also you're going down not up. Going up wastes a lot more energy than going down. Going down hardly saps away your energy in comparison. The only time you would make a quick decision to drop down as safely as possible is if you are encumbered, can't use the rope due to sprains, too tired or there is no rope and you have to run through the entire map to find one. Don't want the game suddenly becoming more restrictive. There are places you can't slowly cheese climb down either. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by desertedone

[Glacia]

A bit late but here my 2 cents about the topic. 

I agree with most players about goating is an intended game mechanic and sometimes risky, making an interesting gameplay feature.

However there are goating spots with risks and others with almost zero sense, you can literally walk a vertical mountain like spiderman. The best example that comes to my mind is the shortcut at AC, you can fully skip the entire map and go to the mine avoiding everything, and there is no death risk, just a guaranteed sprain.

I don't think there is something wrong with goating, but i think changing a bit some places of the game to avoid cheese strategies or shortcuts can be very healthy. Adding a tiny rock can completely block a goating pathing, and this is a lot easier than changing how to game mechanics work. 

Maybe adding a few rocks on impossible paths it's the best option, while leaving the risky ones still "goatable" 😅

[hozz1235]

Something I just discovered recently (after playing since release!) is you can use the fire placement (#4) to see what cliffs can be goated and which ones you will "fall" from.  If the fire "sticks" adjacent to the surface, it's safe, if it is perpendicular, you'll fall.

[ManicManiac]

I think it should just be left as a matter of player choice... 
Folks who what to goat can... those who don't like goating, don't have to.  🤭

[piddy3825]

Methuselah says - Those who do not goat, take the long way home...

[Asinus]

What is often forgotten, a sprain in the game is actually a fall due to uneven terrain.

I would suggest that if you get a sprain, the character staggers for a second, like it already does if you are at low health.

Depending on how steep it is, that might be enough to slip and fall over a ledge.

I think that makes goating more risky, especially on sections which are almost vertical, because staggering here could throw you completly down.

And since both, the staggering mechanic and the sprains are already implemented, the additional programming efford would be low.

Maybe additional fall animations would be an extra.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Asinus

[piddy3825]

7 hours ago, Asinus said:

Maybe additional fall animations would be an extra.

fall animations!  I think you might be onto something.  Whenever I fall, I just see the sides of the cliffs flash past, but what I'd really like to see is the ground
rushing/coming up to hit me.  So, maybe a good fall animation, like from a third person point of view where you watch yourself bounce off the sides on the way down,
that would be pretty interesting.

[Leeanda]

1 minute ago, piddy3825 said:

fall animations!  I think you might be onto something.  Whenever I fall, I just see the sides of the cliffs flash past, but what I'd really like to see is the ground
rushing/coming up to hit me.  So, maybe a good fall animation, like from a third person point of view where you watch yourself bounce off the sides on the way down,
that would be pretty interesting.

If you want to see the ground just look down and walk off one of the rope bridges in ash.😊. I did ,I expected it to fade before I landed but it didn't.

[piddy3825]

41 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

If you want to see the ground just look down and walk off one of the rope bridges in ash.😊. I did ,I expected it to fade before I landed but it didn't.

been there, done that!

[Leeanda]

11 minutes ago, piddy3825 said:

been there, done that!

Great views though,albeit short.😁

[hozz1235]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:13 PM, piddy3825 said:

Methuselah says - Those who do not goat, take the long way home...

"You never see what you want to see
Forever playing to the gallery
You take the long way home
Take the long way home"

[piddy3825]

4 hours ago, hozz1235 said:

"You never see what you want to see
Forever playing to the gallery
You take the long way home
Take the long way home"

Supertramp!

When lonely days turn to lonely nights
You take a trip to see the Northern lights
And take the long way home
Take the long way home

[Razum]

On 2/17/2022 at 6:25 PM, Razum said:

My problem is the following: Why should goating be superior to using a rope? Ingame it's because you don't waste hunger and fatique. The question is, why do you need so much more of it when just sliding down the rope in contrast to a complex climbing act?

In my opinion the consumption of hunger and fatique should be drastically reduced.

[Razum]

On 2/22/2022 at 11:29 AM, Razum said:

My points:
#1 Why is goating even possible? Please call me out, if you can savely stand on a wall tilted 5 degrees from vertical. With crampons maybe, but without you would just slide down. And also: you wouldn't be able to land on such terrain.

#2 Assuming goating is possible, why does goating take more calories than sliding down a rope? Did you see goats climbing around on steep walls (like a dam)? Even for them it's difficult. Why should it be less energy consuming to goat down (take fall by fall on uneven terrain). With a rope you just need to hold on to it [https://youtu.be/8p8iUWe1LjY?t=646 short research: It's called a rappel and you don't even need carabiners or other equipment than a rope, but it helps] So you don't need much energy at all to go down. This isn't really reflected in the game, but should be in my opinion.

This wouldn't make crampons worthless, as you would still have better grip upwards and save energy due to that.