WARNING: Misplaced blackrock insta-death barrier

[Kitsune_Wizard]

Whatever you do, under any circumstances, DO NOT EXPLORE THE AREA BELOW THE BLACKROCK DAM

So, I was exploring the dam. There's a portion under the metal walkway leaving the blackrock power dam that looks like it's walkable because there's barrels there. It's not. You instantly die. Period. (you died from drowning while being nowhere near the water) Just lost a 400 days run, with ALL THE GEAR FROM EVERY CORNER OF THE MAP. I put so many hours into this save I was at 100% condition and I died. It was a legacy run from like four updates ago.

I cannot overstate how pissed off this has made me. I was going for the 500 days achievement. I had well over 500+ bullets because of the good armory prepper cache RNG. It was such a good run, and it was ruined because somebody misclicked the instant kill barrier when making the dam.

I would have lost the entire run. Thank god playstation lets me cheese this  by downloading my save data from PSN so I only lost fourteen days and a few hours of travel time. Oh sure, it's cheating. But I think I deserve it after this.

https://twitter.com/Salty_Ninetails/status/1469734117461929984 proof

[Leeanda]

I'm sorry you lost your save. That's a real pain when you've spent so much time and energy on it. Hope this one goes better  and it doesn't happen again.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Leeanda

[peteloud]

Kitsune_Wizard posted

". . . .  Just lost a 400 days run, with ALL THE GEAR FROM EVERY CORNER OF THE MAP. I put so many hours into this save I was at 100% condition and I died. It was a legacy run from like four updates ago.
I cannot overstate how pissed off this has made me. I was going for the 500 days achievement. . . ."

To avoid this, I backup my saves.  In such a situation I would not feel that I was cheating by restoring my back-up.  I do not use mods., external maps, (good though they are), or the cheats from Fandom.  I regard those are cheating. However I think HTL have it wrong with not having some sort of save system to avoid what has happened to you.

Edited December 11, 2021 by peteloud

[Lastonearound]

Hej

Thats to bad... You did everything right and the system kills you.

 

Is there a way to pull old save from Xbox as well...? Just in case something like that happens

Edited December 11, 2021 by Lastonearound
Mistake

[ajb1978]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Killwalls have no business being in Survival mode! 

Story mode sure, keep the player in bounds and they have autosaves they can roll back to so you're never going to be set back more than 10 minutes of play. But survivor mode? NO. Just no.

I mean the places where you can safely goat around and places that will just straight up murder you are so inconsistent. It directly punishes a player for exploring every nook and cranny. Maybe that steep hill is one of those shortcuts you can butt-slide your way down. Or maybe it'll just kill you instantly. Everything else you have a fighting chance against. Wolves, bears, blizzards, weak ice, starvation, thirst, broken ribs, dysentery, cabin fever, hypothermia, and even the friggen Darkwalker. But not those invisible walls of death.

OK rant over.

[Lord of the Long Dark]

31 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Killwalls have no business being in Survival mode! 

Story mode sure, keep the player in bounds and they have autosaves they can roll back to so you're never going to be set back more than 10 minutes of play. But survivor mode? NO. Just no.

I mean the places where you can safely goat around and places that will just straight up murder you are so inconsistent. It directly punishes a player for exploring every nook and cranny. Maybe that steep hill is one of those shortcuts you can butt-slide your way down. Or maybe it'll just kill you instantly. Everything else you have a fighting chance against. Wolves, bears, blizzards, weak ice, starvation, thirst, broken ribs, dysentery, cabin fever, hypothermia, and even the friggen Darkwalker. But not those invisible walls of death.

OK rant over.

You are absolutely 100% correct there is no doubt about that. 
  At the very best there should simply not be an option for character to pass. At very worst it should be mountain-goatable but with a very precarious path where falls are likely but avoidable with careful orienteering. The only exception would be obvious insta-death obstacles (overhanging cliff, river rapids, falling off a trestle/bridge, etc).  I consider myself having mastered this game however I still always get just a bit nervous on the trestle!!! Always adds to the tension knowing Instant Death is present but…. I am aware of it. Not being aware of potential Instadeath in a game like this is unacceptable for sure. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Lord of the Long Dark

[ajb1978]

1 hour ago, Lord of the Long Dark said:

At the very best there should simply not be an option for character to pass.

As much as I dislike invisible force fields in open exploration games, they are vastly preferable to instant permadeath out of nowhere. Or at least a flashing skull and crossbones in the center of the screen similar to the weak ice indicator, indicating you're near a killwall. Although that sounds to me like more effort than simply removing the killwalls, or turning them into force fields.

Actually now that modding is on the table, there's a million dollar idea. A "No Killwalls" mod.

[Guest jeffpeng]

I guess this isn't even a kill wall. I think they simply (gruesomely) misplaced the hitbox for drowning in the water.

That being said: why is there even an insta-death to drowning? Like .... who would think: "Yeah I kinda wanted to see what happens if you fall into the water, and it killed my 400 days save. That's so cool." No, it's not, and as @ajb1978pointed out: it disincentives exploration. Some "buttslides" are in the game clearly on purpose. Some are not. How should I know beforehand which will kill me - and which won't? For that matter: why should anything outright kill you (well, except like falling 20 50 meters)? Even bears don't do that.

Edited December 12, 2021 by jeffpeng

[ajb1978]

12 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

I guess this isn't even a kill wall. I think they simply (gruesomely) misplaced the hitbox for drowning in the water.

Oh, fair enough. Well, I still maintain my stance on killwalls even though that's not the case here lol!

In this specific instance because they are rapids and you're carrying a pack full of gear and no floatation device, I can understand why it would be a death sentence. But only if you walk INTO the water!

[Guest jeffpeng]

Just now, ajb1978 said:

In this specific instance because they are rapids and you're carrying a pack full of gear and no floatation device, I can understand why it would be a death sentence. But only if you walk INTO the water!

Humans are curious animals. They will touch and prob and eat anything that looks interesting. I mean I would go with it when falling into the stream you'd get a splash, lose 80% of your current health, get hypothermia 2.0, and a message that says "Man! Lucky you got hold of a branch and pulled yourself out. You probably won't be so lucky NEXT TIME."

I mean.... it's permadeath, and if you don't backup your saves (I don't) then you will eventually get screwed by such things.

[ajb1978]

8 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

I mean.... it's permadeath, and if you don't backup your saves (I don't) then you will eventually get screwed by such things.

Aside from something like literally walking off a cliff, or the Trestle, or one of those rope bridges, or jumping into the rapids, I don't think anything should really insta-kill you. And I understand where you're coming from about having the rapids be near-death but survivable, but that river canyon is pretty steep and there aren't many places you could really crawl out at. And what if you fall in at the Narrow Bridge? There's not really anything left downstream on the map, so that one would either have to be fatal, or end up launching you out of Eric's Falls on Timberwolf Mountain (which according to the world map is most likely where the rapids end up).  So you'd survive the rapids only to die from that fall lol

I mean if you get turned around in a blizzard, clothes are frozen, are exhausted, condition is down to 20% and things are looking grim, that's when the game is at its best. It's a real gamble, fighting to survive, you crest the next hill and wham a cabin! You might be saved. You stumble through the door, fumble around and find a single can of soda. It's enough to slake your thirst for a few hours. So you grab a few hours of shut-eye, recover a little bit of condition, but by the time you're dehydrated again the blizzard is still raging and your clothes aren't even close to dry. Do you risk going back out into the blizzard? Do you spend more time indoors knowing the dehydration might be the death of you? (Incidentally I'd gamble on waiting out the blizzard while dehydrated.) If you make a fatal decision, it is what it is. At least you tried your best. THOSE are the things that make for engaging gameplay. 

Insta-death does not. At least that's my opinion on the matter. And like you said, you're getting screwed when it happens!

[Guest jeffpeng]

The situation you describe is well and true. But at the point that blizzard has made you a Popsicle you understand why, and yes: you tried. You actually partook in a virtual life and death situation, which is a very engaging thing to do, and sadly came out the other end... but you know why and you fought like hell. Call me crazy, but I love this game for exactly that.

But if I just wanna see what happens if I dip my toe in the water (I did that in story mode because ..... eh whatever), and you find yourself miraculously drowned .... well, that's a bit hefty, dontchathunk? 😅

But yeah, we clearly agree on the fact that insta-deaths in general are a bad thing, especially if they are poorly communicated (or not communicated at all).

[Morrick]

8 hours ago, Kitsune_Wizard said:

So, I was exploring the dam. There's a portion under the metal walkway leaving the blackrock power dam that looks like it's walkable because there's barrels there. It's not. You instantly die. Period. (you died from drowning while being nowhere near the water) Just lost a 400 days run, with ALL THE GEAR FROM EVERY CORNER OF THE MAP. I put so many hours into this save I was at 100% condition and I died. It was a legacy run from like four updates ago.

The very same thing happened to me. As I wrote in another thread, it happened all so suddenly that it had to be a bug. I was walking there just too carefully for having dropped in the water by mistake. The fact that it happened to you too is partly comforting because it means it's reproducible, even on different platforms (I'm playing on a Mac), and not just a local glitch.

Unfortunately, unlike you, I was not able to recover the savegame. I lost my longest-running MacKenzie (511 days), my best run so far, and by far the most well-equipped, best-fed survivor. I'm still quite annoyed and frustrated. 

[manolitode]

Would someone be able to share a screenshot or map marker for the treacherous waterboarding location in question?

[ajb1978]

10 minutes ago, manolitode said:

Would someone be able to share a screenshot or map marker for the treacherous waterboarding location in question?

OP included a url to Twitter where they posted a video. It's not a clickable link so you'll have to copy/paste it into the address bar.

[manolitode]

Thanks. Saw the video, that's one of the most sinister instadeaths I think I've seen. The path looks so inviting. Kind of glad I'm slowsavouring this region right now.

 

[Kitsune_Wizard]

6 hours ago, Morrick said:

The very same thing happened to me. As I wrote in another thread, it happened all so suddenly that it had to be a bug. I was walking there just too carefully for having dropped in the water by mistake. The fact that it happened to you too is partly comforting because it means it's reproducible, even on different platforms (I'm playing on a Mac), and not just a local glitch.

Unfortunately, unlike you, I was not able to recover the savegame. I lost my longest-running MacKenzie (511 days), my best run so far, and by far the most well-equipped, best-fed survivor. I'm still quite annoyed and frustrated. 

That sucks bro.  Killwalls have ABSOLUTELY no business being in survival mode. While we're at it I also hate the 'suffocation' mechanic being in survival but at least that's just in one spot. I really think that if you fall into the water you should just spawn next to the blackrock dam rocks at 10% condition with hypothermia. Insta-kills are super cheap in a game with permadeath because things like this can happen.

[Morrick]

10 hours ago, Kitsune_Wizard said:

That sucks bro.  Killwalls have ABSOLUTELY no business being in survival mode. While we're at it I also hate the 'suffocation' mechanic being in survival but at least that's just in one spot. I really think that if you fall into the water you should just spawn next to the blackrock dam rocks at 10% condition with hypothermia. Insta-kills are super cheap in a game with permadeath because things like this can happen.

I absolutely agree with you (and @ajb1978) on this. Now I'm once again exploring Blackrock region with another survivor, making local backups of the savegames just in case. Because after something like this happens, the next thing you're thinking is, What if there are other spots where you get insta-killed?

[Kitsune_Wizard]

31 minutes ago, Morrick said:

I absolutely agree with you (and @ajb1978) on this. Now I'm once again exploring Blackrock region with another survivor, making local backups of the savegames just in case. Because after something like this happens, the next thing you're thinking is, What if there are other spots where you get insta-killed?

Hah. at this rate may as well just stay off the dam-side of the map entirely. At least all the good stuff is near the prison.

[ajb1978]

21 hours ago, ajb1978 said:

And I understand where you're coming from about having the rapids be near-death but survivable, but that river canyon is pretty steep and there aren't many places you could really crawl out at. And what if you fall in at the Narrow Bridge? There's not really anything left downstream on the map, so that one would either have to be fatal, or end up launching you out of Eric's Falls on Timberwolf Mountain (which according to the world map is most likely where the rapids end up).

So I just realized the river flows south to north! (Which is weird in and of itself.) So this changes things. This means that if you fell in the river at pretty much any point in Blackrock, you would end up going through the dam. If you're unfortunate enough to get pulled through the turbine, you'll probably get chewed to pulp. But even if you're "lucky" enough to go through the spillway, the intense current would pretty much guarantee you die. It would require a sheer stroke of luck for you to survive, and no amount of skill can save you in that situation. So.. Yeah. Makes sense!

In Episode 4 as for why

Will and Jace survive, that's because they fell into the water on the other side of the turbine. So the water had already been slowed down somewhat, and they would've been dumped out past the spillway.

Still a stroke of luck for sure, but way more survivable than going over the dam.

[Admin]

On 12/11/2021 at 10:24 AM, Kitsune_Wizard said:

Whatever you do, under any circumstances, DO NOT EXPLORE THE AREA BELOW THE BLACKROCK DAM

So, I was exploring the dam. There's a portion under the metal walkway leaving the blackrock power dam that looks like it's walkable because there's barrels there. It's not. You instantly die. Period. (you died from drowning while being nowhere near the water) Just lost a 400 days run, with ALL THE GEAR FROM EVERY CORNER OF THE MAP. I put so many hours into this save I was at 100% condition and I died. It was a legacy run from like four updates ago.

I cannot overstate how pissed off this has made me. I was going for the 500 days achievement. I had well over 500+ bullets because of the good armory prepper cache RNG. It was such a good run, and it was ruined because somebody misclicked the instant kill barrier when making the dam.

I would have lost the entire run. Thank god playstation lets me cheese this  by downloading my save data from PSN so I only lost fourteen days and a few hours of travel time. Oh sure, it's cheating. But I think I deserve it after this.

https://twitter.com/Salty_Ninetails/status/1469734117461929984 proof

Sincere apologies -- this sounds incredibly frustrating. We are working to resolve this issue and we appreciate your patience. We'll post an update as soon as one is available. 

[Wish]

I'm sorry that happened, Kitsune_Wizard.

The exact same thing just happened to my 584-day character in the same location about five minutes before writing this. I drowned on the ground next to the barrels. I found your post because of it and wish I had read it sooner!!

I'm glad I wasn't using my main character to explore the new zone. I'm on PC, so no unofficial previous save option like you had.

Giving some indication that you're slipping could be useful, like ajb1978 mentions:

On 12/11/2021 at 6:57 PM, ajb1978 said:

Or at least a flashing skull and crossbones in the center of the screen similar to the weak ice indicator, indicating you're near a killwall.

There are indicators for weak ice, sharp inclines, etc. Indicators are a useful mechanism because you can decide to take the risk or not, which is part of the fun and what makes the game a series of interesting choices (but a new indicator is unlikely as it would be a whole new thing). 

Killwalls are frustrating because they are sudden, and in the case of this post, inexplicable. When you perish by impact, you see yourself falling beforehand. When you are killed by an animal, you're in a fight before you die. When you die by other means, you hear your heart beating, etc. Unexpected death with no prior indication of danger feels cheap.

Another option in survival mode is for new zones to be in beta mode for a while after release, as it's impossible to find every issue prior, and let players decide of they want to risk permadeath during this period.

I'm 100% in support of permadeath on survival mode, love the game, and appreciate the team who makes it, but there should clearly be consistency on what kills you and what doesn't. Drowning on land is both frustrating and disappointing, and discourages the primary experience and enjoyment of the game—exploration. 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Wish
more thoughts

[stmSantana]

Even if there are no bugs, I would like the "drowning" instant death system to be removed from the game.
It's understandable that stupid curiosity kills me in real-world survival. (Oh, it's a river with a violent flow! Let's take a closer look... Wow, slipped!)
However, I think the perma-death game should leave some kindness to the user. There is no game description that drowning is an instant death. Well, the speed of the river flow is enough to scare the player and make him imagine that he would die if he drowned in the river. However, stupid players accustomed to FM, CH and DP may try to break into the river.
However ... I remembered that the developers continue to leave a system in the game where players die instantly due to electric shock. (Actually, it's not an instant death, but it will die in 1 second. It's enough to die when the game is stopped due to the auto-save lag when the player gets burned.)
Therefore, this hope of mine will not be fulfilled.

Edited January 3, 2022 by stmSantana

[Admin]

On 1/2/2022 at 7:58 AM, Wish said:

I'm sorry that happened, Kitsune_Wizard.

The exact same thing just happened to my 584-day character in the same location about five minutes before writing this. I drowned on the ground next to the barrels. I found your post because of it and wish I had read it sooner!!

I'm glad I wasn't using my main character to explore the new zone. I'm on PC, so no unofficial previous save option like you had.

Giving some indication that you're slipping could be useful, like ajb1978 mentions:

There are indicators for weak ice, sharp inclines, etc. Indicators are a useful mechanism because you can decide to take the risk or not, which is part of the fun and what makes the game a series of interesting choices (but a new indicator is unlikely as it would be a whole new thing). 

Killwalls are frustrating because they are sudden, and in the case of this post, inexplicable. When you perish by impact, you see yourself falling beforehand. When you are killed by an animal, you're in a fight before you die. When you die by other means, you hear your heart beating, etc. Unexpected death with no prior indication of danger feels cheap.

Another option in survival mode is for new zones to be in beta mode for a while after release, as it's impossible to find every issue prior, and let players decide of they want to risk permadeath during this period.

I'm 100% in support of permadeath on survival mode, love the game, and appreciate the team who makes it, but there should clearly be consistency on what kills you and what doesn't. Drowning on land is both frustrating and disappointing, and discourages the primary experience and enjoyment of the game—exploration. 

 

 

I'm sorry you had this experience. We're still working on a fix for this issue, and appreciate your patience.