Little things for greater difficulty

[Nordique]

Hiya, I often think of some small things that could make the game more interesting, meaning harder, with little dev effort. I, um, think I've got plenty of suggestions so I'll start with a small dollop first. If you like what you see, I'm afraid I have enough for a series. 🙂

1. Fish-eater bear taste can be funky. Could Will/Astrid acknowledge this by refusing to eat CH and DP bear meat if not starving? This in response to the glut of bear meat available.

1.2 IRL I have intermittent access to bear meat. Suffice to say seaside bear should not be a treat, and the coat should come off first thing. For TLD in general, I propose meat on bear carcasses with the hide still on should go south like -10% per hour, even given the prevalent freezing temps. Should force interesting decisions whether to skin or quarter, or to just dodge the weather and get the non-consumables later!

2. Taking the Canada waters. (props to whoever coined this previously here, pure brilliance!) I can't bear myself saying this, but ... drinking non-potable water should be a more popular choice 😄. Meaning, with just a bit lower chance of getting ill it should be a consideration starting out. Toilets should yield primarily non-potable and seldom potable, maybe by location: pristine one-houshold closets as opposed to well-frequented industrial stalls -- I can't believe I'm making this loo review 🤪. Would also somehow fit if washers, dryers, fridges gave a cup or two non-pot water at random.

3. Matches in batches. In a real survival situation, especially with cold ruining the fine motor skills, you don’t strike a match. When you really need the fire, you scratch the whole strip or bunch. Then again, with steady warm hands and a nice fireplace, one's plenty so also a buff for indoor match use. I would like to see the fire starting % odds dependent on how many matches are used, maybe in increments of 1/6/12. IMO this would introduce further welcome fire-tending choreography with preference for getting a torch going indoors, in a cave, or lastly an outdoor fireplace (somewhat still subject to drafts). I know this would be a new pain in Loper, but not insurmountable given the stacks of matches experienced Lopers tend to have. Maybe buff the unrealistically puny Firestarter strike count a bit in response?

 

[Mroz4k]

I admit, I quite like your writing style, but it is a bit difficult for me to understand, so apologies ahead of time if I misunderstand something. Do clarify, please. Happy to respond in turn.

1. Do I understand it correctly, that a bear with a fish diet taste has a different taste to their meat? Okay. I think the only way to achieve that would be if the bears were somehow different, and dropped different kind of black bear meat then all the other bears. One with the same name, but different ID. I guess that is doable, probably would not be that difficult. Except for one thing - Will and Astrid voices are voiced by professionals. So unless it is a part of some wider collection of dialogs, filing recording session to add only one dialog for the purpose of some minor immersion additions would not be practical. But that does not mean its impossible. 

I admit it is a neat little detail. I would not mind it in the game.

1.2 Nah. The whole thing with animal carcasses is not really meant to be realistic, it is a matter of game mechanics. Cosmetic changes like a different comment on the meat of a fish-consuming bear, that is fine, but difference to how it acts compared to other bears should not be the case in my opinion. 

2. Frankly, the containers everywhere should provide Unsafe water, not potable water. The water inside the resorvoirs is stagnant. Many of them were probably unused for days, weeks, some maybe even years. Stagnant water like that is prone to become infected by bacteria or cyanobacteria, etc. Even chlorinated water is not safe forever, the chlorine out of it will dissapate. 

3. Think the "match count" is once again not really realistic, more of a gameplay mechanic. I doubt wood matches in Canada would only have 12 matches. The ones I use have maybe 30. The bigger box even a 100. Either way, burning "more matches" would just be a wasteful behaviour. Something every survivalist knows, firestarting is not about how many matches you use, it is about how well you prepare the appropriate tinder to then bring the flame to life. I would be against this  - not only is it wasteful, it doesnt make much sense. True enough that if your hands are frozen, it is more difficult - I would like to see that reflected in firestarting chance if one is suffering from hypothermia, or hypothermia risk respectively. Say -10% to -20%.   

---
Just a couple of my opinions on your suggestions. Would love to see more from ya!  

Edited February 14, 2021 by Mroz4k

[Nordique]

Thanks for the compliment, I'm happy I managed to convey my elated spirits in writing! (see ps. below) I'll happily clarify, the main point for emphasis italics, but add longish notes, sorry not sorry for googlin' on a lazy Sunday 🙂:

1. Yup, even more than most game animals, thems what they ate. I'd prefer that bear meat from CH and DP can not be eaten when Well-Fed. "Uh, sardines little fish, rancid bear Biig Fish." Just as you described, a unique ID would do it handily.

And yes! I too think a couple more judiciously dropped voice acting approval/disapproval clips for both characters would improve TLD -- those who don't like their characters talkative can already silence 'em. Easy to introduce in any update whenever studio time allows.

I can't help elaborating on bear meat, as it kinda fits the theme ... Woodland blacks eating berries are a treat, seaside fish-eatin', scrap scavengin' browns (sheesh the Rot-A-Whale Bear Drive-In at Hibernia ...) will likely be way off, to the point of offending Western sensibilities beyond edibility. Quoth Shaw: "When you cook it, it's going to be like low tide on a hot day." -- if you're keen, here's a superb story. And tho squirrel stew would suit TLD's setting, I would not want to be the one advocating for more cute mammals on the menu 🙂 https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/11/13/363793521/why-the-invasivores-havent-pounced-on-bear-meat

1.2 I see I definitely buried my point there, sorry. To rephrase: For additional difficulty, IMO all bear meat should go bad faster on carcasses from which the pelt has not been removed either by skinning or quartering. I concede, -10% per hour might be too harsh, but perhaps -5% per hour would discourage folks from "sleeping on it" to regain condition and then return to process the carcass?

Or for further realism: the rapid microbial activation when re-heating freezing-ruptured cells is well-known. Make bear meat go bad at -20% per hour when thawing a frozen carcass? Bear and only bear, namely due to the thick pelt keeping the carcass too cozy for bacteria for hours on end after falling, but really only because there is so much bear meat in the game. And to offset this nerfing, why not up the meat yield some, for realism? If the raw bear steaks come at declining 80 60 40 % from every progressing hour of harvest, the greater quantity would not yield that much more to eat (excepting OP Cooking 5).

Never mind the real-world origins of these suggestions, albeit I cherish the connection. IMO these changes would serve to nudge the game in the right direction, harder, and introduce further tough choices for the player at minimal dev time cost.

2. I beg to disagree. I'd like to think the bends e.g. air locks in plumbing approximate a Pasteur experiment. Aided by the game setting's freezing temps, it would not be completely unreasonable to source two types of water from these "urban springs": some almost-safe water, and more non-potable water. IRL considerations aside, I'm again angling for a little bit more difficulty with a very minor adjustment. For early Loper, I concede some potty-bowl sippin' can be crucial to keep the move on. So: gain the current amounts of drinkable water from cottages, but stall-type e.g. MT Bank, Carter, BR Yard should yield mostly non-potable. I refer interested to https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/scientific-experiments/scientific-method5.htm

3. Génial! I was really thinking in strictly gaming terms and you opened up my thinking here! Would it improve immersion to up the match count to somewhat more realistic numbers, like tripling or so, but require the player to use either "All", "1/3" or "Single"? I love the match-counting minigame in Loper. I think it would be made ever more poignant however: in dire weather, one match should not be reliable. This would again introduce a savory difficult choice: Do I conserve the matches by trying to use singles in windy conditions, too, with a relatively poor chance (maybe 20-30% and takes time which freezes the player further) of starting a fire, or is now the time to just get a fire going and worry about tomorrow if there is one? Cue London's "To Build a Fire". https://americanliterature.com/author/jack-london/short-story/to-build-a-fire

ps. The main reason I appreciate everything in TLD so much is I enjoy many of the activities depicted IRL. It just so happened yesterday I went for a quick 10k in the snow with a sled in tow -- sure hope this is is a harbinger of a future TLD upgrade viz my activities constantly showing up in the game... I did warm up with untold cups of piping hot and, erm, hard tea and sat down to opine so I'm afraid some clarity was lost! 😆

[Nordique]

Great to see this thread's got some views. Time for the next installment, then!

4. Workbench 2.0 -- now with a usable drawer! All workbenches should acknowledge and allow using tools and materials placed on the worktop and in the drawer. This way I could leave my Quality Tools on my main workbench, put the dozens of feathers, tips, shafts etc in the drawer and just craft, not adjusting my inventory. Or place the plain Tools and a blade on a reserve bench and stack that with guts and furs, and return to craft when cured.
I know freely placed objects on the workbench would be harder to check for crafting, so I'll settle for just the 5 kg Workbench Drawer: ID all items in the drawer as if they were in the character's inventory for crafting quality of life improvement.

5. Broadhead arrows, big bow. More arrow types has been a recurring request over the years, and relatively well-liked, I gather. Search finds solid discussion for example a year ago or over five years ago.

The regular Simple arrow should not work on bears and moose except maybe to give a chance to scare with a hit. I'd vouch for a Broadhead arrow tip that in rabbits ruins the pelt and has a good chance of destroying the guts too, wears 30% faster and would offer the current arrow performance level. For the best rabbiting experience I'd like to see a new Blunt or Club arrow (lead tips?). To justify the increased difficulty these changes would bring, the Blunt Arrow could craftable on the Workbench, no need to forge.
5.1 I would like to see the current stickbow nerfed from the current perf to half the time killing a deer, maybe wounding a wolf territory. And from Archery 3 a crafting recipe for (recurve/long/horn ...) Strong Bow requiring e.g. 3 saplings, 6 guts (plenty of sinew) and would offer the current big-game performance.

6. Two glove slots. This is good, let's try to make it happen! Would both justify the Bear Islanders' quirky leather glove fetish, given the weather and open the door for introducing further difficulty for handling ranged weapons with heavy mitts on. Only glove-type in the inner slot (Driving and Work), all the rest would be deemed mitt types and for the outer slot. Could be balancing to have a new thin liner-type glove handwear item, too. To push the player to keep on exploring, I would only allow one slot with Hand Wraps -- and no stacking of either 2 mitts or 2 gloves.

And hey, don't touch that dial, chip in, I've got at least 2 more installments coming up, for at least a dozen suggestions. Happy to hear your opinions!

[Fuarian]

Imo water needs an overhaul. Dysentery needs to be more of a threat.

[odizzido]

Dysentery is not an issue because you need a fire to melt snow.....at which point you can just boil the water anyways and be safe. If we could drink water without needing a fire, like eating snow, collecting it from the few running water sources around, or from fishing holes, I could see drinking unsafe water be something that people would be at least possibly tempted to do.

As long as the conditions for getting water to drink are the same for making safe water people are never going to drink unsafe water. Also getting sick needs to be rare otherwise people will never do it because chances are it will be a mistake. It needs to be good enough to risk it.

[Mroz4k]

On 2/14/2021 at 1:39 PM, Nordique said:

1.2 I see I definitely buried my point there, sorry. To rephrase: For additional difficulty, IMO all bear meat should go bad faster on carcasses from which the pelt has not been removed either by skinning or quartering. I concede, -10% per hour might be too harsh, but perhaps -5% per hour would discourage folks from "sleeping on it" to regain condition and then return to process the carcass?

We actually did tests on that. What we found out is that the meat on carcasses (not bear only, but carcasses alike) degrades very fast in the first few hours of the animal dying. In a way till the game determines that the "animal has frozen". Which happens even if you keep a lit flame next to it and keep it from freezing. It just seems that the game determines that first few hours after animal is dead, the meat degrades the fastest. That is why, if you want to get the best quality meat, it is best to cut it off straight from the carcass 1-2 kg at a time. This way, the initial first few kg will be of "highest quality" with the condition dropping fast as you keep taking it off. In a way, you are correct - it perhaps is not very realistic. As first one would have to at the very least skin the animal, and usually the next step is to gut it, so that mistakes can be avoided, such us cutting through the stomach on accident and having the stomach acid dip into the meat, ruining it. Or so I was told. Rural european here, my knowledge on animal harvesting is mostly theoretical. 

After the deteoration slows down, the carcass will remain harvestable for a few days, with the condition eventually going down to 0 at which point it wont be salvageable at all. The only difference to this rule are the placed carcasses, those seem to be degrading at a slow rate since you find them in a location.

On 2/14/2021 at 1:39 PM, Nordique said:

And to offset this nerfing, why not up the meat yield some, for realism? If the raw bear steaks come at declining 80 60 40 % from every progressing hour of harvest, the greater quantity would not yield that much more to eat (excepting OP Cooking 5).

Yep. That is kinda the problem. At some point, you have cooking rank 5, and at that point, condition is there just for show. 

On 2/14/2021 at 1:39 PM, Nordique said:

2. I beg to disagree. I'd like to think the bends e.g. air locks in plumbing approximate a Pasteur experiment. Aided by the game setting's freezing temps, it would not be completely unreasonable to source two types of water from these "urban springs": some almost-safe water, and more non-potable water. IRL considerations aside, I'm again angling for a little bit more difficulty with a very minor adjustment. For early Loper, I concede some potty-bowl sippin' can be crucial to keep the move on. So: gain the current amounts of drinkable water from cottages, but stall-type e.g. MT Bank, Carter, BR Yard should yield mostly non-potable. I refer interested to https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/scientific-experiments/scientific-method5.htm

Superb reasoning. I conceed my point and would back this suggestion 100% of the way. I think the game would benefit from a bit more variety. 
Another solution I would be okay with would point to it being a random game of chance - that some of the "potable" reservoirs would actually be non-potable. Thing is, like Fuarian implied, the Dysentery is not much of a risk in TLD... in fact, if getting the potable water wasnt so easy (I waste 0 time, every time I am not cooking something on a fire, I start making water to waste as little burn time as possible) I would be drinking some non-potable water, too. The Dysentery is kinda rare affliction within the game. So I dont think this would be too bad.

3. match counting - To be honest, I dont think adding more matches and upping the difficulty would produce the desired effect you are looking for. For starters - how would this be reflected in torch lighting? Right now, there is a 100% chance to light a torch up, at cost of 1 match. That torch then can be used to light up several fires before it "goes out". If game had more matches to boot, and the torches werent changed along with it, you would just basically increased the match count in the game. Only because of meta, which is to make a campfire, make lots of torches, and then light a torch before staring a campfire next. Which is how most people do it anyway, as this way, you can even use cardboard matches to light up the torch and this way basically upgrade one cardboard match to a wooden match in terms of fire starting chance, but with the advantage of a torch not being wasted when the fire starting fails. Then it is a problem of the HUD. This is already an issue with lighting torches when in emergency, like when wolves are approaching you. If you have several fire starting tools, such as firestriker and matches, when you choose to "light the torch" the game asks you what to use for this. This is already so annoying, complicating that further would not be a good idea, at least in my opinion.

I do agree with you that there should be something of a punishment with starting a fire already freezing but I think there are better ways to go about it then to mess with the match count.

On 2/14/2021 at 1:39 PM, Nordique said:

ps. The main reason I appreciate everything in TLD so much is I enjoy many of the activities depicted IRL. It just so happened yesterday I went for a quick 10k in the snow with a sled in tow -- sure hope this is is a harbinger of a future TLD upgrade viz my activities constantly showing up in the game... I did warm up with untold cups of piping hot and, erm, hard tea and sat down to opine so I'm afraid some clarity was lost! 😆

In a way, I envy you. For me, it is a trip to mountains and at best having a stroll, through what is essentially overpopulated region anyways. Cant go 10km in any direction anywhere in this country and not run into 3 houses with at least one being inhabited at a time. The only time one could get lost in this country nowadays is if the weather in the mountains was really bad, and the person was inexperienced and panicked, or was hurt. Drawn sled would be awesome addition in my opinion! As something that could potentionally be used to quickly scale down a hill, but also could be used to drag a lot of gear over some distance with ease. It would, for example, be incredibly useful to transport all that bear or moose meat after the animal was downed.

Now, for the new things!

On 2/17/2021 at 11:27 PM, Nordique said:

4. Workbench 2.0 -- now with a usable drawer! All workbenches should acknowledge and allow using tools and materials placed on the worktop and in the drawer. This way I could leave my Quality Tools on my main workbench, put the dozens of feathers, tips, shafts etc in the drawer and just craft, not adjusting my inventory. Or place the plain Tools and a blade on a reserve bench and stack that with guts and furs, and return to craft when cured.
I know freely placed objects on the workbench would be harder to check for crafting, so I'll settle for just the 5 kg Workbench Drawer: ID all items in the drawer as if they were in the character's inventory for crafting quality of life improvement.

That is an incredible idea, I love it and would back it 100% of the way. When it comes to Quality if life improvements in TLD, I see things one of two ways. Some changes would make the game more convenient, and it might be better to leave it more annoying to simulate the experience of survival. Like having to take off clothes one piece of clothing at a time! One doesnt just zip one button and all of their clothes fall off in real life, too! But this in particular is a nice addition in a sense that it makes sense. Person would store their tools of trade and the material somewhere close at hand, and having to think of what to take for crafting can be annoying. I like this idea a lot!

5. I am not against the idea of having different types of arrows, but this opens up the discussion on different types of ammo and arrows. Especially now that we can craft our own ammunition, too. Problem comes with how to treat different arrows and how to choose which one to put on. Given how sometimes you need to take it out and shoot as fast as possible, having to choose a type of arrow would be detrimental. Unless one would simply pre-select what type of arrow to put on. Still, I would want some limits. One of the most suggested arrow types over the years were sharpened stick with burned points. This is an effective survival strategy for makeshift archery, but it affects the game difficulty in a way that forging arrowheads would no longer be a requirement. 

I would be fine if there was a way to forge broad arrowheads and if one could make different kinds of arrows. I would not go as far to make small-game arrows like the ones for rabbits. TLD is a lot about being resourceful and about punishing wasteful. Hunting rabbits with arrows is just wasteful, especially considering how easy it is  to hunt rabbits with a stone. It would be fine in my opinion if current arrows worked just as well on the animals right now, but perhaps had a diminished effect on moose and bears. Kinda like having a bow variety of revolver/rifle rounds. One is for smaller game, one for bigger. 

As for different bow types... eh, meh. Not neccesary in my opinion. I get that there is a point to having bigger variety which is good, but there is also an argument to be made about the beauty in simplicity. The whole idea of TLD seem to be about surviving day-to-day. Hence lack of majority of end-game activities and heavy focus on day-to-day survival. I think different types of bows would potentionally be a good idea for a TLD mod if the mod support ever comes out.

6. I agree, and I remember the ajb comment and could not agree more. It would make sense to have a set of actual "gloves" and then mitts that you put on when you are not performing a delicate task with neccesary fingerwork. This would require some re-balancing but I believe it would be a positive change for the game.

_

More suggestions, please! Keep ´em coming!  

[Stinky socks]

I think if you add all these 'realistic' bits and pieces, Astrid or Will shouldn't have any realistic chance of survival.

You dont just drop out of the sky and know these things. I think most of the stuff is good enough. Game gives plenty of survival insight without making it a drag micromanaging a bunch of stuff. Balance is key and I think hinterland struck it.

[Nordique]

On 2/19/2021 at 1:09 AM, odizzido said:

If we could drink water without needing a fire, like eating snow, collecting it from the few running water sources around, or from fishing holes, I could see drinking unsafe water be something that people would be at least possibly tempted to do.

Yes, I too think it would improve the game noticeably, with very little dev effort, were the water supply less secure. I like how much obvious effort has gone into TLD's mechanics: for the water economy, it is the character who judges all the drinking water he/she finds as okay or need-to-make-sure by boiling.

I have thought about this and believe it would both make mid-game loper more interesting and force new choices on the player if the water consumption would be simply doubled. This would go nicely with your suggestion of being able to take non-potable water from e.g. the few flowing sources. Given time and resources, a model that scales thirst and hunger according to the day's activity would be nice, but hardly necessary.

[Nordique]

On 2/21/2021 at 7:28 PM, Stinky socks said:

I think if you add all these 'realistic' bits and pieces, Astrid or Will shouldn't have any realistic chance of survival.

You dont just drop out of the sky and know these things. I think most of the stuff is good enough. Game gives plenty of survival insight without making it a drag micromanaging a bunch of stuff. Balance is key and I think hinterland struck it.

Well, didn't the original backstory have Will as a veritable logging-camp grown woodsman? But that was then. I certainly don't intend a wishlist of 'realism' fixes.

I can echo the oft-repeated notion that early game TLD is super intense, but that it then plateaus somewhat. This thread attempts to list suggestions that are 1) simple to implement 2) make the gameplay more varied and add difficulty 3) mainly in ways that target early-mid Interloper where the margins are deliciously thin. I am however also fond of the monotony aspect in mid to late game, noting that it is there when little mistakes and general blasé can still suddenly add up to tense survival gameplay.

[Nordique]

Hi, here's some more little things that I think would be easy enough to implement for added in-game content, and preferably difficulty:

7. Red scarf. Storymode has the Astrid's scarf object all ready. Just add it in Survival as a placeable, perhaps once the player finds the namesake scarf. The interaction bit for suitable bushes and tree limbs is not hard. And of course with heavy winds the scrap should have a high chance of being destroyed, or moving downwind to another place to confuse the player.

8. Blaze marks. I must be one of the few to actually use the in-game inuksuk as a path marker besides storage. Since TLD is set in boreal latitudes, a blaze mark struck with an ax on the side of a conifer would be appropriate and the graphic asset is not demanding. Now, the delicious problem with a blaze is that they are meant for summer use. A white slash is not visible far in winter, and snow sticking to the wound's drying resin covers the mark soon. So these too would disappear pretty fast.

9. Edible lichen. Takes intricate preparation, but yields relatively energy-rich emergency food.
Lichens are a big topic, I'll write a separate thread. But since I started thinking of full-on boreal forest survival, this goes in the list for sure. I find they offer a very interesting gaming mechanic for rescuing the character from the meat-heavy diet in the heart of the winter!

I love the idea of introducing a heavily forested zone, and there these would definitely fit.

10. Box of ice cream, because what else does a hypotermic need? Now this I don't have a ready suggestion for how-to, considering all the game's freezers are reliably unrealiable 😁. As a big fan the game's bittersweet touch, I think it would fit in just right in the more stately homes of the island. I don't see even the hardy Great Bearers grabbing their ice creams on the go when fleeing a natural catastrophe... Make a community contest out of the branding, too!

[Stinky socks]

I want to see vodka! Gives player warm up bonus, but introduces certain visual 'elements' and walk funny.

Also, it could be used as an accelerant or lamp fuel or for crafting torches. Drunk Astrid vs a pair of Timberwolves!

Bring it you fkrz!!😡⛏🗡🐺

🤣

[Sir Loin1557]

In response to Nordique, you talked about toilet water. Do you ever notice theres no water inside the bowl when you take water from it? There is about 1+ gallons of potable water in the toilet, not in the bowl, but lift the lid on the backside and the water is perfectly fine to drink even irl.

[one_shurbbery]

56 minutes ago, Stinky socks said:

I want to see vodka! Gives player warm up bonus, but introduces certain visual 'elements' and walk funny.

Also, it could be used as an accelerant or lamp fuel or for crafting torches. Drunk Astrid vs a pair of Timberwolves!

Bring it you fkrz!!😡⛏🗡🐺

🤣

Alcohol actually further complicates 33% to 73% of hypothermia cases, and is the dominant cause of death in urban cases of hypothermia. Alcohol causes vasodilation (the widening of blood vessels) of blood vessels near the skin, which gives the feeling of warmth, but if actually causes heat to be lost, and also negatively effects the body's natural responses to cold, such as shivering. So being drunk in cold is a terrible idea irl. 

https://www.wemjournal.org/article/S0953-9859(94)71099-8/pdf

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1811578/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia#:~:text=Alcohol consumption increases the risk,one is actually losing heat

Edited February 23, 2021 by one_shurbbery

[Sir Loin1557]

Alcohol would emininate cabin fever risk but increase dehydration, vision, and hypothermia i guess

[Pillock]

On 2/17/2021 at 4:27 PM, Nordique said:

4. Workbench 2.0 -- now with a usable drawer! All workbenches should acknowledge and allow using tools and materials placed on the worktop and in the drawer. This way I could leave my Quality Tools on my main workbench, put the dozens of feathers, tips, shafts etc in the drawer and just craft, not adjusting my inventory. Or place the plain Tools and a blade on a reserve bench and stack that with guts and furs, and return to craft when cured.
I know freely placed objects on the workbench would be harder to check for crafting, so I'll settle for just the 5 kg Workbench Drawer: ID all items in the drawer as if they were in the character's inventory for crafting quality of life improvement.

This one is genius.

I tend to do the closest thing the game lets you with this - keep all crafting materials in or on the bench, then pick up the ones I'm using to craft and replace them when I need to stop - but your suggestion would save me a lot of faffing about!

[Old Hermit]

Following this approach, would be nice a workbench similar to that in Sheltered, where u have a board over the workbench displaying the available tools, and u can add more other tools as you find/craft them, until complete a set (excluding the electrical ones, of course).

[Nordique]

On 2/23/2021 at 8:56 PM, Sir Loin1557 said:

In response to Nordique, you talked about toilet water. Do you ever notice theres no water inside the bowl when you take water from it? There is about 1+ gallons of potable water in the toilet, not in the bowl, but lift the lid on the backside and the water is perfectly fine to drink even irl.

This is interesting, something I was alluding to above. In a situation where one just should not risk losing both the immediate ability to function due to acute illness, or the longer term condition due to prolonged gastro distress, drinking from a toilet cistern even though it looks clean is not a choice to make lightly. Then again, after being sunbaked and freeze-dried for a couple of days with no water and still without the means to make a fire to boil your finds, thems the breaks. (cue Tuco drinking out of the first horse-trough coming from the desert in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly 🙂)

I like it that in TLD it seems the character judges any found water either safe to drink as-is or as suspicious, and thus requiring further treatment (against pathogens, not other contaminants). In other games the player makes the appraisal e.g. based on the quality of the water given in per cents. 

I think there would be more depth to be had here at little dev cost. I would enjoy gaming the odds if I had to drink suspect water in a pinch, but then I would like the penalty to be variably severe. Sometimes akin to food poisoning, sometimes an instant condition hit and that's it, but that there would always loom the threat of dysentry. Or crypto or giardia or coli. But let's not aim for a hygiene simulator.

[Nordique]

  

On 2/21/2021 at 1:02 AM, Mroz4k said:

1.2
We actually did tests on that. What we found out is that the meat on carcasses (not bear only, but carcasses alike) degrades very fast in the first few hours of the animal dying. In a way till the game determines that the "animal has frozen". 

... After the deteoration slows down, the carcass will remain harvestable for a few days, with the condition eventually going down to 0 at which point it wont be salvageable at all. The only difference to this rule are the placed carcasses, those seem to be degrading at a slow rate since you find them in a location.

... At some point, you have cooking rank 5, and at that point, condition is there just for show. 

3.
... match counting - To be honest, I dont think adding more matches and upping the difficulty would produce the desired effect you are looking for. For starters - how would this be reflected in torch lighting? 

... Then it is a problem of the HUD. This is already an issue with lighting torches when in emergency, like when wolves are approaching you. If you have several fire starting tools, such as firestriker and matches, when you choose to "light the torch" the game asks you what to use for this. This is already so annoying, complicating that further would not be a good idea, at least in my opinion.

5.
... Problem comes with how to treat different arrows and how to choose which one to put on. Given how sometimes you need to take it out and shoot as fast as possible, having to choose a type of arrow would be detrimental. 

... I would be fine if there was a way to forge broad arrowheads and if one could make different kinds of arrows. I would not go as far to make small-game arrows like the ones for rabbits. TLD is a lot about being resourceful and about punishing wasteful. Hunting rabbits with arrows is just wasteful, especially considering how easy it is  to hunt rabbits with a stone.

As for different bow types... eh, meh. Not neccesary in my opinion. I get that there is a point to having bigger variety which is good, but there is also an argument to be made about the beauty in simplicity. The whole idea of TLD seem to be about surviving day-to-day. Hence lack of majority of end-game activities and heavy focus on day-to-day survival. I think different types of bows would potentionally be a good idea for a TLD mod if the mod support ever comes out.

 

Hiya, thanks for your well-considered reply! I'll quote soundbites from you above and try to defend my points. 😀

1.2 TLD Science! This is fantastic stuff, the lengths players have gone to over the years trying to fathom the mechanics via Excel-lent deduction! Shows some serious love! 🙂

Realism aside, I'd like more activity in mid-late Loper. I would like to see the quantity of meat on bear carcasses double to triple, depending on how much the character's calorie consumption could be upped, but for balance the bear meat should go bad on unskinned carcass very fast and the marine bears should be last-ditch food.

I'd like it if Cooking 5 yielded e.g. 98% instead of 100%, so when reviving essentially bad meat from 0% I'd be okay with 46% quality. In my head canon at C5 Will is preparing mighty fine Bear Pastrami that keeps near forever, but still ... it is OP.

3. Thanks, I'd like to see in your suggestions that you see what I'm aiming at. 🙂I'd prefer the current Interloper's difficulty curve more constant over time instead of plateauing. For this, I'd rather see the emergency wolf scare use of fire fall more on flares or even the oft-omitted flashlight (in Aurora), they tend to accumulate, mainly to be used only in bad weather. For cooking, the Matches, Firestarter, Mag Lens would be the same as now. 

For example, a model of Single, 1/3, All matches would yield interesting changes, somewhat influenced by realism but moreso with the idea of adding difficulty that mainly impacts Interloper. In other game modes there is so many matches and/or ways to fight the predators that I don't see a great change. In this way, the character would always use All matches in a pack to light a torch or a fire when A) s/he is outdoors B) freezing C) except when using an existing fireplace, barrel or stove D) or except when crouching in a wind-sheltered place. No need to change the UI, the match icon just burns a whole pack instead of one. If there's less than full package, then adjust the success percentage accordingly. Perhaps later add a vocalisation to the tune of "It's all or nothing now". For cooking with matches, and additional sub-menu under the current menu where the player would choose one of the 3 ways: if freezing, the chance to succeed with less than All would be very low.

5. Regarding archery my intent is to make the bow skill progression take longer, so it would be more rewarding. Archery 1-3 would need to be developed with the stickbow (preferably so that reliable deer hunting needs level 3), then unlock the next bow from Archery 4 to start practicing big game.

You would need to train with the current stickbow and the current or new easily made blunt arrows for example using the targets (should yield the occasional skill point, come to think of it, is there one in the wood shed behind BR lodge?) or shooting at bunnies, destroy arrows - raises skill. Or should we put the cairns to good use and allow a skill point at random when hitting from a distance? 😆

I don't see a quiver on the player, and with a little bit of sprinkled realism, that could be turned into "two in hand one on string" before Archery 3. Meaning the stickbow would only shoot the 2 lesser arrow types. There are currently no equip slots for weapons, and IMO no pressing need for them. Just change the inventory so that arrows are carried in player-selectable bunches of 3? Shoot the first 3, takes some time, then the next bunch is available.

I think this alone would introduce a further step in the Interloper streamline to stop the first forging yielding a near-instant self-sufficiency.

[Mroz4k]

22 hours ago, Nordique said:

I'd like it if Cooking 5 yielded e.g. 98% instead of 100%, so when reviving essentially bad meat from 0% I'd be okay with 46% quality. In my head canon at C5 Will is preparing mighty fine Bear Pastrami that keeps near forever, but still ... it is OP.

Yea, the refreshment of quality by 50% is again only really useful before Cooking 5. Then it is once again cosmetical. Well, I guess the more decayed meat, while still edible, is more smelly. But for purpose of eating, C5 removes food poisoning and that is what links food to its condition. If one cant get food poisoning, there is no point to condition on meat anymore.

What if the condition of meat was linked to how much calories the player receives from them? That would make the condition more relevant even with C5. May not make much sense compared to real life, but might be interesting as a game mechanic.

3. I think I see what your aim is. You have a point that in easier modes, more matches are found around the world, making them fairly common. I still use the torch trick anyways to limit their use to be conservative. I dont think it would be a good idea to have torches use up all matches in a box, that sounds so wasteful. Also, one of the most common complaints is "I wasted a match by accidentaly triggering a torch" - if this wasted a full box, lot of people would be really pissed. 

So, do I understand it correctly, that you want to make it so that players use more matches earlier into the game and later on start being more conservative? That is quite a challenge, to try and come up with a way to achieve that. 

5. I see. I dont particularly have a problem with two different types of bows, or different kind of arrows. I dont like the idea of crafting arrows without arrowheads - that particular thing there is there for a reason - that one needs to go spend time on forge or find reclaimed arrows in the wild to be able to craft new arrows. It is a kind of a gateway. Without complicating things too much, if an improved bow was craftable after like Archery 3 and along with it a type of broad arrows that would go along with it, and this bow was used for big game hunting, I would be fine with it. I dont think it is neccesary to be honest, but it could make the game more interesting. The bow is already a bit too powerful for hunting bears by now I would say, all it takes is one arrow to make the bear bleed and then just hide somewhere it cannot reach you. 

I dont think it is very likely. More variety is not really a TLD thing as we could see so far - they are stingy with adding more weapons in general, let alone one that is pretty similar to the previous weapon. If anything, I would expect to see Crossbow instead, but I would be against that idea as I think it would simplify the game, as a mid-range weapon that fires more in a direct line. 

Another way to go around it would be to just add a different kind of arrow, for big game, with extra puncture damage, as a craftable at certain archery skill like you proposed. The way it could be treated in the game is that by quick selection, first would go bow with normal arrows, second would go bow with broad arrows, and on radial menu, it would be depicted by two different bow selections. I dont think that different sort of a bow is neccesary.

All in all, I dont think that TLD is really the game for what you propose with your archery suggestion. Too much of a variety does not really fit the game all that much. While that may change in the future, I doubt it, the game has been pretty consistent over the years. I do find it interesting, but I maintain my stance that I think what you are proposing would be an incredible mod for TLD. But I would not expect it to show up in a base game. It is kinda the same argument like with more firearm suggestions - where people would like 4 different types of rifles in the game. Variety in terms of gear is not something we really see in TLD all that much.

Bunching arrows together is interesting concept - how would you make it work? The arrows have different durabilities, and game selects them based on that. Now idea of a quiver - here is something I wished for years! As an accesory type of clothing, being craftable from pelts, it would not increase the values of clothing, but would instead make notching arrows 25% faster. This would be very useful for archery with certain hunting techniques and with defensive archery as well.