Interiors Should be Colder

[Lexilogo]

Why?

First, in a game that largely markets itself off trying to stay warm, it's a little silly that you can accomplish this task by being indoors and wearing a pair of particularly warm socks. Heat essentially acts more like an oxygen mask and oxygen system in this game.

I'm NOT creating this with the intent of, for example, the Temperature gauge always decreasing. More like:

• When your run starts, buildings are about as warm as they currently are (perhaps warmer), to give players a few days to obtain decent clothing.
• In insulated regular housing, people wearing what they usually wear should easily result in positive temperatures. To heat up quickly, you'll probably need to start a fire. If you try to take off your clothes and strip down in a chilly house you haven't lit a fire inside in ages, you will freeze.
• In less insulated, opened structures, you will need to have solid insulation on your clothing to have a positive temperature rating, especially if the conditions outside are super cold such as during nighttime. Lighting a fire in the interior will offset these problems, but you won't get the longer-term temperature preservation you'd see in an insulated interior.

How?

I won't bore you with any kind of exact idea of how the math would work and it'd probably have to be altered anyway after playtesting if I came up with some, but here's some factors that I think could be taken into account to pretty easily produce a decent system for producing an interior temperature:

• Outdoor temperature (not counting windchill)
• Interior insulation (1-3 rating. 1 would be areas like Carter Hydro with loads of holes. 2 would be areas like mines that have some direct routes to the outside but long stretches without it. 3 would be most houses with full insulation)
• Interior fires (how long, how hot, etc. If you light an especially long, warm fire, you might create warmth for your base that potentially lasts weeks)
• For interiors with electronic heating, potentially auroras could quickly begin to increase their temperatures, as an extra little bonus they provide for the player

 

This kind of system could easily create a little extra depth to the game, and even add potential for more difficulty, Challenge modes, etc. And now, when outside temperatures drop, you can't just escape their consequences entirely by going indoors. This isn't intended to change gameplay fundamentally, as typical clothing setups should still almost always result in positive temperatures under a system like this IMO. This is just intended to add an extra small issue to the background of the game that will help make the cold more of a consistent menace, even if it's far, far more serious while you're outdoors.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Lexilogo
(added the point about electronic heating, I brainfarted and forgot to mention it)

[UpUpAway95]

What difficulty level are you playing on?  There have been many cases where I've continued to lose heat after entering a building and had to start a fire to begin warming up.  The "World Gets Colder Over Time" setting is:

Pilgrim - None

Voyageur - Low

Stalker - Medium

Interloper - High

You can also adjust these to your liking in the Custom menu, along with a host of other weather variables such as the frequency of blizzards.  In addition, you can also set whether or not merely lighting a fire overcomes the air temperature or if the temperature of the fire itself has to be hot enough to overcome the air temperature.

Edited January 7, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[Lexilogo]

4 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

*snip*

I was kinda worried that higher difficulty levels would feature a discrepancy here as I personally play Voyageur for the most part. The "it's normal difficulty, so that means I should play it" bias is pretty hard for me to break for a lot of games. I imagine on Interloper lategame you'd probably need to rely on fires and bed warmth more.

Regardless, I do think there's some value in making a more complex insulation/interior heat management simulation for the game like this one that might extend vaguely similar effects to more difficulties, create special downsides for certain basing locations, etc.

 

And maybe allowing badges to be earned on custom so people don't feel punished for using the feature, but that's a different discussion.

[UpUpAway95]

6 minutes ago, Lexilogo said:

I was kinda worried that higher difficulty levels would feature a discrepancy here as I personally play Voyageur for the most part. The "it's normal difficulty, so that means I should play it" bias is pretty hard for me to break for a lot of games. I imagine on Interloper lategame you'd probably need to rely on fires and bed warmth more.

Regardless, I do think there's some value in making a more complex insulation/interior heat management simulation for the game like this one that might extend vaguely similar effects to more difficulties, create special downsides for certain basing locations, etc.

 

And maybe allowing badges to be earned on custom so people don't feel punished for using the feature, but that's a different discussion.

I think it's plenty complex enough.  It is sensitive to variations in the weather and does vary from structure to structure.  If you want to try it out - use a Voyageur Template in the Custom menu and increase the "World Gets Colder Over Time" setting from "Low" to either "Medium" or "High."  Also change the "Fire Overcomes Ambient Air Temperature" setting from "Yes" (as it is in Voyageur) to "No."

[ajb1978]

Actually this would be a good addition to the Custom mode options, I think. A slider to adjust how cold interiors are, with one end being the current state of just slightly below freezing, and the other requiring a fire unless you're well bundled up. It should never be exactly as cold as it is outside, but if it's -30 out I agree that it makes no sense for it to only be -3 indoors. For that matter, sunny days should have an effect on indoor temps too, and cars in particular would benefit from the greenhouse effect. Deep caves however should remain above freezing, because that's just how it is. They remain above freezing year-round deep underground.

During the last 4 days of night event, day 4 was a non-stop blizzard, and interior temps were around -20 I think...way colder than normal anyway, so interior temps apparently already can be adjusted. We just have no control over it.

[Serenity]

38 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

There have been many cases where I've continued to lose heat after entering a building and had to start a fire to begin warming up

With exceptions like the Mountaineering Hut that only happens at the beginning of a game. And just a few degrees of clothing prevent freezing. Or the Cold Fusion feat.

It certainly doesn't have anything to do with the weather. You'll be just slightly negative inside regardless of anything elese.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Serenity

[UpUpAway95]

1 minute ago, Serenity said:

With exceptions like the Mountaineering Hut that only happens at the beginning of a game. And just a few degrees of clothing prevent freezing. Or the Cold Fusion feat.

It certainly doesn't have anything to do with the weather. You'll be just slightly negative inside regardless of anything elese.

I can remember distinctly nearly freezing to death inside the Carter Hydro Dam during the blizzard and I have also continued to lose heat inside the bunker below TWM until I crawled into the bed and got that warmth bonus.  It's not just the mountaineering hut.

[UpUpAway95]

15 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

Actually this would be a good addition to the Custom mode options, I think. A slider to adjust how cold interiors are, with one end being the current state of just slightly below freezing, and the other requiring a fire unless you're well bundled up. It should never be exactly as cold as it is outside, but if it's -30 out I agree that it makes no sense for it to only be -3 indoors. For that matter, sunny days should have an effect on indoor temps too, and cars in particular would benefit from the greenhouse effect. Deep caves however should remain above freezing, because that's just how it is. They remain above freezing year-round deep underground.

During the last 4 days of night event, day 4 was a non-stop blizzard, and interior temps were around -20 I think...way colder than normal anyway, so interior temps apparently already can be adjusted. We just have no control over it.

I'd be fine with them adding a "Starting Interior Temperature" slider in Custom in addition to the current settings.  The more options the better.  However, if the player opts to make their interiors significantly below freezing, I think they should find no available water in the toilets (either since it's a block of ice or the pipes long since burst).

Edited January 7, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[Serenity]

The point is that it stops being a concern after a few days. It's an issue on Stalker and Interloper because of the crappy starting clothing. Using the bed to warm up can indeed be necessary. But once you find a few things you're fine.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Serenity

[UpUpAway95]

7 minutes ago, Serenity said:

The point is that it stops being a concern after a few days. It's an issue on Stalker and Interloper because of the crappy starting clothing. Using the bed to warm up can indeed be necessary. But once you find a few things you're fine.

I'd be in favor of them adding another notch to the "World Gets Colder Over Time" setting = Very High.

[Derek0311]

Love the idea.  Candles in shelters could be a used to warm those up.  IRL this should always be done as an indicator of ventilation.  If the candle dies down or goes out for no good reason, you should get out of the shelter; to little oxygen.  

The size of a structure could be an issue.  Grey Mother’s suddenly isn’t so great a location because of the space that would have to be heated to get a desired effect.  There would have to be two things really.  Proximity heating (radiation) for the character and also the global temperature of the structure.  Each building “type” would need predetermined volume so the rate of heating would be consistent.  It could be done without but the next thing that will be said is ,”why do small buildings and large buildings heat at the same rate?”

This would be really great if structure building were ever added.  Then you can live in a log cabin mansion if you want but you’re going to have a hard time keeping it warm.  On the other hand if it’s too easy to heat there is no room to spread out hides.  The mechanic would self balances it that way.

[odizzido]

18 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I'd be in favor of them adding another notch to the "World Gets Colder Over Time" setting = Very High.

I would like it if they really allowed a lot of freedom with that by introducing slider bars, or even a box we can type a value in to. Colder over time starts at 0% which is none, 100% with is whatever the current max is, then you can push it to 500% or whatever so its like -200 on day 30. If you wanted.

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, odizzido said:

I would like it if they really allowed a lot of freedom with that by introducing slider bars, or even a box we can type a value in to. Colder over time starts at 0% which is none, 100% with is whatever the current max is, then you can push it to 500% or whatever so its like -200 on day 30. If you wanted.

The temperature of liquid nitrogen?  Don't think that's at all realistic.

[odizzido]

No, everything would die. However even being able to select it as an option, if you're insane enough, should be available in custom games IMO. The boiling point of oxygen is only -183 degrees though so everything but plants would suffocate.

[Lexilogo]

30 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

The temperature of liquid nitrogen?  Don't think that's at all realistic.

-200C is definitely absurd (though that poster doesn't specify if they're using celsius or farenheit. -200F is somewhat more reasonable, but still a crazily low temperature), but Custom already has other vastly unrealistic settings like Endless Night.

[odizzido]

I use celcius. I think only like 6-7% of the world population uses F?

edit----

Also I agree that -200 is nuts, but I just used it as an extreme example. I would like to have those "extremes" in all settings so I could put wildlife population down to 5% of its current lowest, for example.

Edited January 8, 2021 by odizzido

[Stone]

I really like the idea. Mainly because it makes having a fire indoors worthwhile (on loper, wood/fires last much longer out in the cold).

I suppose weather would factor too - blizzards blowing in drafts through any little gaps.

[Robbiieeee]

Yeah I remember once when I was surviving in the whaling shed at desolation point (the name of the building escapes me) hiding from a bear and some wolves, i noticed the smashed ceiling with the snow pouring in and it said 'air temperature -3' when outside it was like -18 or something. Desolation point is full of buildings that wouldn't be as warm as say the cabin at mystery lake 

[UpUpAway95]

57 minutes ago, Robbiieeee said:

Yeah I remember once when I was surviving in the whaling shed at desolation point (the name of the building escapes me) hiding from a bear and some wolves, i noticed the smashed ceiling with the snow pouring in and it said 'air temperature -3' when outside it was like -18 or something. Desolation point is full of buildings that wouldn't be as warm as say the cabin at mystery lake 

The thing is, any building in the game, without any heating for months,, would IRL have pretty much the same air temperature as the outside except for, perhaps, areas by windows that might benefit from directly sunlight by a degree or so during the day (but not much since these homes don't look to have triple-pane windows or particularly well sealed window frames.  Even without gaping holes, these homes would have plenty of air leaks.

So, a simpler way to invoke "reality" in the game would be to eliminate the air temperature difference between indoor and outdoor areas altogether.  Sheltered areas would then only have the benefit derived from having no wind chill and that predators, for the most part, can't enter.  Of course, this would mean that we'd basically spend basically all of our time in game gathering wood... fun, fun.

The way fires work would then have to be changed.  The "insulation value" of the shelter would only matter in slowing down how quickly the shelter cools down after a fire goes out... which, right now, in game, is instantaneous.  That would mean that you should, in a house, be able to heat it up with your fire and go to sleep after the fire dies out... and the house would cool down only over the course of the entire night.  The amount of cooling would have to take into account the size of the shelter, etc.  All in all, I think it's too complex a system to implement in the game and would cause a lot of performance issues on the smaller systems.

Edited January 9, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[ajb1978]

1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

The thing is, any building in the game, without any heating for months,, would IRL have pretty much the same air temperature as the outside except for, perhaps, areas by windows that might benefit from directly sunlight by a degree or so during the day (but not much since these homes don't look to have triple-pane windows or particularly well sealed window frames.

They should definitely be colder than they are, but there are some natural phenomena at play that would prevent them from ever being as cold as the outside. Primarily, the existence of basements, and the fact that a pocket of air is a form of insulation in and of itself. A basement dug out well below the frost line exists primarily to protect the house from the seasonal freeze/thaw cycle, but it has a secondary benefit of geothermal temperature regulation. The basement will always be slightly cooler in the summer, slightly warmer in the winter. If you consider that the air temperature outside might be -30 but the earth temperature below the frost line is maybe 2, for all intents and purposes it's acting like a heater.

Edited January 9, 2021 by ajb1978
spelling

[odizzido]

I don't think it would add any real performance hit to have heating. Once every 15 in game mins...

inside temp =  inside temp - ((inside temp - outside temp) * house cooling rate)

The cooling rate is a value that can be assigned to each house just like temperature is now, so 0.03 or whatever. No need to do any complex volume calculations or anything. This would also open up the ability to line the walls with animal furs or something to drop the cooling rate from 0.03 or 0.029 for like a bear pelt or something. That could be neat I feel.

[Lexilogo]

33 minutes ago, odizzido said:

I don't think it would add any real performance hit to have heating. Once every 15 in game mins...

inside temp =  inside temp - ((inside temp - outside temp) * house cooling rate)

The cooling rate is a value that can be assigned to each house just like temperature is now, so 0.03 or whatever. No need to do any complex volume calculations or anything. This would also open up the ability to line the walls with animal furs or something to drop the cooling rate from 0.03 or 0.029 for like a bear pelt or something. That could be neat I feel.

You actually don't even need to do that- You could probably just make the calculations as to what the interior temperature should be when the player loads into an individual interior.

It also does indeed open up possibilities regarding some base improvement systems. Something that could organically fit with the game's systems would be applying a small negative insulation modifier for every window an interior has, but code all windows to give the player the open to drape materials over it, with Cloth being something like 50% effective, Deer skin being 75%, Bear skin negating 90% of that penalty and if you're insane enough to invest Moose hide, the window's insulation penalty is totally negated.

[UTC-10]

If the devs implemented a form of "interiors should be colder" I would expect them to go for a simpler formulation. 

No complex or complicated considerations.  No hanging furs on the wall.  No attempting to increase insulation and consequentially interior warmth.  Of course, I am projecting on the devs so they might go for a more complex calculation but I really don't see it.