Please add option to SAVE game in Survival

[UpUpAway95]

4 hours ago, manolitode said:

Is it though? A successful businessmodel is one that keep making money over time. TLD has no addons, no subscription, no ingame purchases. While Hinterland is devoted to their community they still have to attract new players to gain income. My guess is as good as yours but changing the premise of the game by making it easier, its goals easier to attain, might change the game's status over time and thereby change the rate at which they attract new players. However the trend of making the game easier (eg mapping and rope climbs) could mean I'm wrong.

 

I really get tired of this line about "making the game easier."  Adding in a manual save option does not make the gameplay any easier for anyone who wants to play permadeath. All they have to do is leave the option for manual saves "off."  Not everyone is interested in buying a "permadeath" game.  I've had friends indicate as much to me when I've told them about TLD... so all Hinterlands is doing is cutting those people out of their potential for income flow.

Edited January 12, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[manolitode]

1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I really get tired of this line about "making the game easier."  Adding in a manual save option does not make the gameplay any easier for anyone who wants to play permadeath.

If you go back and read the entire paragraph you see that I am talking about the premise/concept of TLD. No one is arguing that permadeath isn't permadeath. I can see why players would want optional perma. But don't just assume it only changes the individual experience and won't change the premise, how people play the game (good and bad), how players compare progress, or how players will react when their hard-earned accomplishments become more easily attainable etc. There's lots of factors that count into it. Perhaps 95 % of players don't even take permadeath into consideration when buying the game. A solid guess is that Hinterland has a decent idea about what lures new players to the game and whether permadeath is a factor. Like I said before, my guess is as good as anyone's but I believe permadeath is a selling point they'd like to keep. 

[Holden_]

6 hours ago, manolitode said:

Is it though? A successful businessmodel is one that keep making money over time. TLD has no addons, no subscription, no ingame purchases. While Hinterland is devoted to their community they still have to attract new players to gain income. My guess is as good as yours but changing the premise of the game by making it easier, its goals easier to attain, might change the game's status over time and thereby change the rate at which they attract new players. However the trend of making the game easier (eg mapping and rope climbs) could mean I'm wrong.

 

This is a red-herring argument and is a perfect demonstration of someone arguing in bad faith.

[manolitode]

2 minutes ago, Holden_ said:

This is a red-herring argument and is a perfect demonstration of someone arguing in bad faith.

It's an honest reply and it's up to you whether you want to respond to it with arguments or turn to attributing others ill intentions. 

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, manolitode said:

If you go back and read the entire paragraph you see that I am talking about the premise/concept of TLD. No one is arguing that permadeath isn't permadeath. I can see why players would want optional perma. But don't just assume it only changes the individual experience and won't change the premise, how people play the game (good and bad), how players compare progress, or how players will react when their hard-earned accomplishments become more easily attainable etc. There's lots of factors that count into it. Perhaps 95 % of players don't even take permadeath into consideration when buying the game. A solid guess is that Hinterland has a decent idea about what lures new players to the game and whether permadeath is a factor. Like I said before, my guess is as good as anyone's but I believe permadeath is a selling point they'd like to keep. 

I know what people have been arguing here... I've been reading it on this forum for years now.  Adding a manual save OPTION does not affect the permadeath gameplay of TLD at all.  Just leave the option off.  You're speaking out of both side of your mouth... on one hand you say people don't consider permadeath as a factor when buying the game and then you immediately suggest it is a "selling point."  (It can't possibly be a selling point if most people never consider it.)  My experience with my friends is that when I tell them TLD is permadeath ONLY, they tend to say they are not interested in the game.  The save OPTION would not eliminate a selling point which would say the game offers perrmadeath, it would just make it not a "permadeath ONLY" game.

Permadeath played without an option to save and permadeath played with a save option turned off would be equal in all aspects... no easier nor harder for anyone wanting to play a permadeath game.  Most people really have no trouble playing permadeath for games that don't even have any options to turn off manual saving and that don't delete one's save file.  That only takes some player self-control to commit to actually deleting their own saves when their character dies.  I play FO4 permadeath all the time.

Edited January 12, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[manolitode]

46 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

You're speaking out of both side of your mouth... on one hand you say people don't consider permadeath as a factor when buying the game and then you immediately suggest it is a "selling point."  (It can't possibly be a selling point if most people never consider it.)  

That's a surprisingly literal interpretation of what I wrote, perhaps I can clarify my point. You write that your friends have a certain preference, that is anecdotal. Perhaps everyone share your friends' preferences, perhaps only few do, perhaps 95% don't even care about permadeath when deciding to buy or not to buy TLD. My point is when we are reflecting on business decisions we are guessing. Hinterland should have a lot more insight in what draws new players to the game or hold them back. 

56 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I know what people have been arguing here... I've been reading it on this forum for years now. 

Then I kindly ask that you quote those people instead of presenting their statements as mine. 

Anyhow, you have stated that optional permadeath changes nothing. I have stated that I believe it would have an impact on the game (and my own gaming experience). I have attempted to explain what I mean by that and if the points made seem strange to some that's perfectly fine with me. 

[mayimbe]

And why not that the developers do a survey with 2 options, one of them if saved in the options section and another with a no saved and the most voted because it is the one that remains and thus the issue is resolved or so less is my way of thinking.

[UpUpAway95]

18 minutes ago, manolitode said:

That's a surprisingly literal interpretation of what I wrote, perhaps I can clarify my point. You write that your friends have a certain preference, that is anecdotal. Perhaps everyone share your friends' preferences, perhaps only few do, perhaps 95% don't even care about permadeath when deciding to buy or not to buy TLD. My point is when we are reflecting on business decisions we are guessing. Hinterland should have a lot more insight in what draws new players to the game or hold them back. 

Then I kindly ask that you quote those people instead of presenting their statements as mine. 

Anyhow, you have stated that optional permadeath changes nothing. I have stated that I believe it would have an impact on the game (and my own gaming experience). I have attempted to explain what I mean by that and if the points made seem strange to some that's perfectly fine with me. 

Short answer - I'm not the one who is purporting that my friends' reactions are even most people.  You are, however, stating... quoted:  "Perhaps 95 % of players don't even take permadeath into consideration when buying the game."  So, YOU suuport your assumed stats here... where's the poll?.  You can go back and read the archives of these forums to get an idea of how much this issue has been brought up over the years.  I'm not about to quote them all... and I DID NOT attribute those statements to you.

The basic point remains - having an OPTION to invoke manual saves does not affect nor prevent ANY player from continuing to play "permadeath" in this game.  It only enables players who don't want to play permadeath from continuing with a save after the chracter dies.  It does not even prevent a player who has enabled the save option from playing their game as though it were a permadeath situation.  They can simply delete their own saves if their character dies.  It doesn't make the game easier, period.

[manolitode]

13 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

You are, however, stating... quoted:  "Perhaps 95 % of players don't even take permadeath into consideration when buying the game."  So, YOU suuport your assumed stats here... where's the poll?. 

Nope, that's another misrepresentation of my words. I just stated that 1) it was part of a reasoning (see previous post) 2) we are all guessing when we are discussing what draws new players to the game or hold them back. 

I don't see that me having to correct your interpretations of my words in every post is moving this particular conversation forward for the community. Looking forward to talk to you again on another subject. 

[UpUpAway95]

9 hours ago, manolitode said:

Nope, that's another misrepresentation of my words. I just stated that 1) it was part of a reasoning (see previous post) 2) we are all guessing when we are discussing what draws new players to the game or hold them back. 

I don't see that me having to correct your interpretations of my words in every post is moving this particular conversation forward for the community. Looking forward to talk to you again on another subject. 

I quoted you directly... no misrepresentation is possible.  You pulled a number out of your butt putting a particularly spin... I could have also said, with equal validity as you that perhaps 95% of gamers do consider whether or not a game offers manual saving before buying.  Yes, Hinterland may have an accurate stat or they may not.  Regardless of the number though, not having a manual stat cuts out people who do consider that when buying... and Hinterland does cut themselves off from getting revenue from those individuals.  My statements you seem to want to nitpick argue against are completely accurate and factual... regardless of whether they are 5% or even 1% or whatever number you want to pull out of your butt to argue against it (My original statement, just to be clear was "Not everyone is interested in buying a "permadeath" game")  Permadeath only (i.e. not offering a manual save option) still cannot be a "selling point" when, if we accept your assumption, most people (i.e. more than 50%) don't even consider it.

Having such a manual save option would not prevent any permadeath lovers from doing what they are currently doing.  It would not make the gameplay easier.  Furthermore, not having a manual save option does not prevent people from save scumming or even from backing up their files and circumventing the auto-deletion of their saves.  It is, therefore, not a safeguard that ensures fair comparison among friends or community members.   The only people it inhibits are the honest ones who simply don't want to play permadeath.

Hinterland can do their own polls and decide for themselves, but my opinion is that they are really not gaining anything by not offering a manual save OPTION in survival mode.  They could even still say that the game offers both a permadeath mode and a manual save mode to attract BOTH types of players.

Edited January 13, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[Booch]

On 1/12/2021 at 2:37 AM, manolitode said:

Is it though? A successful businessmodel is one that keep making money over time. TLD has no addons, no subscription, no ingame purchases. While Hinterland is devoted to their community they still have to attract new players to gain income. My guess is as good as yours but changing the premise of the game by making it easier, its goals easier to attain, might change the game's status over time and thereby change the rate at which they attract new players. However the trend of making the game easier (eg mapping and rope climbs) could mean I'm wrong.

 

Valid. Solid points. Thanks.

[manolitode]

2 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I quoted you directly... no misrepresentation is possible.  You pulled a number out of your butt putting a particularly spin... I could have also said, with equal validity as you that perhaps 95% of gamers do consider whether or not a game offers manual saving before buying. 

Let other people decide what they mean even if you don't like what they have to say, their intention is not up to you to decide. I really don't think you should talk to me or anyone else like this. It's unacceptable and I'm not spending any more time on you. 

This forum has a higher standard than this, lets keep it that way.

I'll happily converse with anyone on the subject who would like to add their constructive view on the matter, or why my arguments (way up on this page) are wrong.

Edited January 13, 2021 by manolitode

[Admin]

Thread closed. 

We gave warnings previously. It's fine to have opinions and differing opinions is what makes this forum valuable and worthwhile. You can share your views without insulting each other, or at least that is the objective of the forum.

As pollyannaish as it might seem we believe that our fans and players are capable of more constructive conversations. It's fine to disagree, and it's fine to never resolve a question of taste. Ultimately we want to see the best arguments on all sides of an issue which may help us frame and make decisions around development.