episode 4 & 5 ?

[Irish Paddy]

Having played and loved this game , playing 1 2 ,3 a few times , and looking at the crazy time for 4, and looking at the content/narrative of the game !!!! - stuff like "old world has come to an end " - "entering the new world"  , Astrid trying to get to a place to cure some kind of outbreak, putting her life on the line , it being so important  - unknown green lights in the sky, all the people are gone, etc etc etc................... i dont think they are trying to finish episode 4.............. they are waiting for current , real world events to catch up............i seriously think this game is about our present world and where it is going.............. anyway............ HINTERLAND - HURRY UP AND RELEASE 4 AND 5 , OR I BLOODY WILL !!!! - WEH HEY !!!!!........................... GREAT JOB ON THIS GAME HINTERLAND - KEEP IT UP

Edited July 20, 2020 by Irish Paddy

[Sherri]

On 6/4/2020 at 7:58 PM, Dum_Gen said:

It is totally incorrect. HL advertised TLD with the story mode in a big part and I bought this game because of the story mode, so it is not free. All those quality of life improvements and DLCs are for free, Wintermute isn't.

How much time it takes to develop does matter, because many people wouldn't buy the game if there were told that the story mode will be completed 5+ years after the official release.

Maybe this is something I take for granted as a software developer... but I would never ever buy a game on kickstarter or pre-order that is unfinished and only be happy if it finishes on time.

In the software development industry - as in games - it is not uncommon for huge projects to go WAY WAY beyond initial estimates. Double or triple or more times the initial estimate is even common. Software is notoriously hard to estimate. Features creep in, core team members leave, pandemics lock down the entire planet (boo Covid-19), technologies change from under you - heck one project I developed was on time until the language and framework we used both released new versions and it took us months to adjust - because of something totally out of our control.

No two software projects are alike. It's not like Hinterland had built an identical game before and knew how long it would take. We can make educated guesses - but even for experienced software teams estimating very similar projects, it is HARD. Hinterland promised that the Story episodes would take a certain amount of time... but folks... that was only a very, very, very rough guess.

If you are going to feel ripped off, if an unfinished game you buy does not come out close to the promised date, you might as well stick to only buying finished games.

I know what it's like, so for me, just the fact that they are still working at it - and we've been getting content in the meantime - is enough for me.

(Incidentally this is why more and more software development studios now bill clients on retainer instead of a fixed price for a project. Because it's so hard to estimate a flat amount of time that a project will take. Better to have a client pay you to work on it X hours a month until done.)

Edited July 22, 2020 by Sherri

[Sherri]

10 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

Almost all episodic games that I know released all story content within ~1 year.  So it is natural that customers would compare new episodic games to the industry standards and will be expecting something somewhat similar.

Man, the only episodic game I ever cared about this much was Half-Life. We were promised an ongoing episodic story. We got Episodes 1 & 2. Then Valve pissed off with Steam and Left4Dead. Siiigh. I'm still bitter about that.

[Sherri]

10 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

And for me it is not enough, because survival mode players receive free content, DLC-s, events while I haven't received what I paid for.

Plus, "they are still working on it" wouldn't be a good excuse with almost any other service or product, if it takes 5 times more time than others usually take. I don't understand why game devs suddenly became special in these regards.

Obviously you're within your rights to be mad that you're still waiting for what was promised you. That's valid of course.

But at some point you have to make a sunk-cost analysis and ask yourself if... knowing what you know now... and ignoring the costs you've already sunk into the game, whether it's still worth your emotional investment. Since you aren't going to have to pay more money, that's the only cost left that this can take from you. If it's not worth it, then drop the game and quit sinking your time and energy into it and these forums. Or... decide that it is still worth it, and keep waiting.

But spending more time and energy complaining, and I'm not just talking about Dum_Gen... is just giving more valuables (time, energy) to something you're bitter you spent $ on in the first place. IMHO.

[Irish Paddy]

The Long Dark is based on current events we see globally. Episode 4 will not be released until current events catch up. Look at the game. McKenzies wife is a doctor and she is trying to get some kind of 'cure' to a remote place "before it is too late for everyone"...wouldnt be surprised if Astrids case contains vaccines !!!....... everything i see in the game reminds me of the times we live in ( or soon will be living in).....strange lights in the sky - just look at all the ufo sightings we are seeing  and the insane concept of operation blue beam - low earth orbit satalites in clusters , fitted with holographic projectors , to project onto clouds !!!....Methuzala and all his comments , "this world is coming to an end", "only the strong will survive the new world"........... the end of episode 3 with all the dead whales washed up on the beach.....i play this game for hours and hours......and as i walk in the emptyness i just keep thinking that the feeling this game creates is growing more and more paralel to the world we live in with these lockdowns......isolation is effecting everyone.........no way these game episodes take this long to create (although i dont rule out any problems hinterland may be having) ..........come on hinterland........ release the episodes............ love this game

Edited November 16, 2020 by Irish Paddy
forgot to add something

[ManicManiac]

@Irish Paddy

[Admin]

As @ManicManiachas linked to our latest statement on the Episodes that's all we've shared at this point. We are working towards Episode 4, but that won't come until 2021. Before then we'll have a Survival Mode Update.

There's no nefarious conspiracy as to the timing of the Episodes, just that they take quite awhile to create, and that we are also working on expanding and improving Survival Mode at the same time. Even as we've grown Hinterland is still a relatively small team and so we're only able to produce so much at a time. Working-From-Home during COVID has causes some delays as well which we've spoken about.

[Irish Paddy]

Hello admin - Not trying to start a conspiracy - Just being honest about the amazing game experience - To me The Long Dark is not game that you play , its an experience that I keep on playing , over and over again. The isolation, challenges and bleak reality of the game  grows more and more similar to the world today - The bleak reality from  frozen corpses , abandoned cars, homes and challenge for survival itself. Just wanted to share this to see if anyone else felt the same. I salute you all at Hinterland for this masterpiece of software.......... and I was playing doom when it was released !!!.  I even created some software in the past at work , that had to be used by other staff - it took 2 months to get the program running and 6 months debugging to make it dummy proof. Even then there were problems. How long do you think we have left. God Bless from Ireland.

[Sherri]

I've got all the complainers beat....

I'm still waiting on the further Half-Life episodes that Valve promised us. LOL

[Irish Paddy]

I just dont get the delay Sherri - They have built the game engine, the dynamics, the weather etc etc - They are not building a game from scratch -- They have 80% starting out - just need a good episode 4 story, place what ever items are needed , create the motion capture data , the voice recordings, the execution script ......... Jesus episode 3 could have been made in a few months , given the existing game engine - i do allot of work in Maya - The game uses the unity engine - Is there are map/ mission creator app out there ?? - Hinterland would unleash this game if they released a mission builder ............ game would go insane

Edited November 17, 2020 by Irish Paddy

[Ankylos]

On 11/7/2019 at 5:33 PM, Dum_Gen said:

Episodic games are not a novelty. Despite the dates were not set there there are some example from other companies, so people can compare them.

I'll repeat what I wrote somewhere else:

Game of Thrones release dates:
December 2, 2014; February 3, 2015; March 24, 2015; May 26, 2015; July 21, 2015; November 17, 2015.
Less than 1 year in total for 6 episodes.

Life is Strange release dates:
30 January 2015; 24 March 2015; 19 May 2015; 28 July 2015; 20 October 2015.
Less than 9 months in total for 5 episodes.

The Long Dark release dates:
August 1, 2017 - episodes 1 and 2, official release;
December 2018 - episodes 1 and 2, re-release after 15 months;
October 22, 2019 - episode 3, +10 months
2+ years for 60% of the story .

So people expect that episodes would be released in ~1 year span. I believe people reconsidered buying the game if the devs said that it would take 4+ years.

It is a perfect argument if anyone new wanted to buy the game now while having outdated PC and complained that they can launch the game. It is completely different for people who bought the game years ago and want to receive what they paid for.

Agreed.

I would like to add. I just got the game on Epic. I got it free for their Christmas event. The only complaint is I didn't know the episodes weren't complete. No big deal, I'll gladly wait.

This--> I am fairly certain the writing was on the wall for 32 bit even three years ago. So....  Just sayin'

 

Couple other things...frostbite: can we get a status icon for dryness/wetness level of clothes since the end result is permanent. I would have reset to the previous save and retried that area if I knew. I know now lol/

Timberwolves: I do not know the game without them. They ARE a PITA (pain in the ...) but you should always make sure you have at least 6 - .308 rounds, 2 bandages and 4 painkillers, and you're golden. With the amount of stuff I carry, I had no problem other than walking XD.

Can we please have 5 more carry weight? Those tools...

Edited December 25, 2020 by Ankylos

[Peetee]

Timberwolves ... they are those lovely singing furry creatures, that visit you from time to time to bring you meat, after you take them down with a gun, right? 😏

[.GINGE.🧠🧬]

So, it's 2021! 😇 Should I expect the episode 4 release to be New Year's Eve of 2021? 🤷‍♂️ Or just give up hope completely on finishing this story? 💩Honestly, it wouldn't be the worst thing I've heard all year. 🔥😅🙈

[oilstain]

I have mixed feelings about this thread, and the game itself actually. 

I'm lucky to have grabbed a free copy from EPIC during their Christmas give away event.

I've thoroughly enjoyed playing it for the most part (the unavoidable twitch-centric timberwolves in an otherwise non-twitch game being the biggest annoyance), but I agree that there really is no excuse to not finish the main plot/campaign of a game released, according to the EPIC site on Sep 22 2014!!!

This thread itself has been around long enough for most indie dev shops to release a complete game!

The genre is awesome, the execution of the game is really well done, but come on. If I had paid for this out of pocket, I'd be really disappointed that I can't see how THE STORY ends even though it's been released for half a decade. 

On the other hand, it was fun to play and in a few years from now, if they can manage to build another another few square miles of map, a half dozen small quests, and record a couple hundred lines of dialog, maybe I'll come back and play it.

"But you have to be patient" no, I have to forget this game existed or be frustrated about not being able to experience the end of an interesting story. I do need to remember Hinterland Studio, so that if I see another game released by them to check and see if it's been finished or not before playing it.

 

[Sashamorning]

Reading this thread (again)... so salty! We've gotten TWO new regions since the thread began.  The 1st two Wintermute episodes took place in new launch regions, and the 3rd Wintermute episode also took place in new regions. I'm sure that HL wants to make sure that Bleak Inlet and Ash Canyon are up to speed before finishing up the next episode(s).

Personally, as much as I've liked Wintermute, survival mode is the centerpiece of the game.  I have especially enjoyed the new regions (especially Ash Canyon... my God, the views...), and to me WM is basically a complementary story. I want to know how it ends, but I've greatly enjoyed exploring the new world.

Besides, a recent post said that the lockdown has delayed Ep 4 beyond the expected date.  I'm willing to wait.

On 11/16/2020 at 8:30 PM, Sherri said:

I've got all the complainers beat....

I'm still waiting on the further Half-Life episodes that Valve promised us. LOL

Oh QFT.  It's been over 13 YEARS since HL2 E2 left us with a CLIFFHANGER, but after Valve focused on Steam, it's clear that there will never be a true resolution.  For those complaining about Wintermute... it's a survival game. Wait it out.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Sashamorning

[Sherlock Holmes 18]

Hey, it's going to be a 4th division very soon, and you should be happy about that. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[manolitode]

While this community holds a few game developers I'm not one of them and don't know what a reasonable developing time for an openworldish TLD-like episode would be for a studio the size of Hinterland. The only episodic game I used to play was made by a larger studio ( number of employees being but one variable that affect production time) and though the episodes were released much more frequently the ingame "space" was very limited.

If it is as suggested above, that episode development time is abnormally long, then perhaps you're right that story mode isn't prioritized. Could also be the other way around, that HL is taking their time to make the last two episodes exquisite. Could also be that we all abide under Murphy's law. Adding new steps in production, working with third parties, developing new features, "anything that can go wrong will go wrong"  While we're eager to play episode 4 we would also benefit from adjusting our expectations to match Hinterland's actual developing time. And meanwhile get distracted by other indulgences. 

[manolitode]

9 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

I'm not sure how relevant world size with regards to time to develop story mode. It is not like they creating completely different separate regions, etc. Main parts of content already exists in the survival mode.

Fair point, creating episode 3 in already existing PV should be faster than making a new region with blackrock prison, if that's what we can expect from the upcoming episode. 

9 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

HL spent ≈3 years on the first 3 episodes. And I wouldn't say that they were exquisite, considering abundance of fetch quests, strange mechanics of the bear spear (which haven't been introduced in the survival mode after all that time), artificial gameplay time extension through slowing walking speed (basically slow fetch quests), questionable motivation of protagonists, etc.

I've shared my critique on episode 3 in quite a few other topics so I would agree when it comes to slow fetch quests and writing. But for me episode 1-2 (the original ones) were plain stunning which is why I have high hopes for 4-5. They introduced me to the TLD universe with breathtaking landscapes, well-written characters and moving soundtrack. If you didn't like the previous episodes that much, why care for the upcoming ones?

10 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

So the question appears, whether the devs were too ambitious about their capabilities and overestimated themselves or just have much lower priority for the story mode. As I wrote previously, most of episodic games that I know were finished within approx. 1 year timeframe. Therefore, 5 years after official release seems too generous even for an indie studio.

We can always speculate on their priorities, perhaps HL have concluded that prioritizing episode 4 and 5 won't add enough new players to make it profitable. And perhaps it is a long wait regardless of open world or indie vs AAA. That said, I have great respect for the growing pains and trials of a growing studio and I appreciate that HL aren't prepared to release anything half-hearted.  

[Sherlock Holmes 18]

Imagine if molly astrid went through the mine after she rescued Will from the methuselah at Carter's door and the two met in the garage. 

[manolitode]

18 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

Are they really a growing studio? Their only game was officially released 3+ years ago and they continue to work on it. I think TLD is already bought by majority of total potential playerbase for this game. IMO additional sales will appear during discounts and episode releases, but revenue will be much smaller part of total.

Depends on how you define growth, I suppose. They're hiring, it's usually a positive sign. Would be interesting to see how their revenue numbers have fluctuated during the last 5 years but I don't know where to find such numbers for Canadian companies.

18 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

For me HL looks like they reached maturity until they release a new product, and I didn't hear any news about it. Plus I really think that it would be unethical to work on something new until they finish the story mode.

Disappointing for some perhaps, unethical I think is a stretch considering how little many of us paid for the game. A sidetrack on ethics, the motto on HL's page provides a clue to their developing time: "We believe passion for work and balance in life are not only compatible ideas, but necessary ones". If HL live up to that, and people are encouraged to work their 8 hours and go home their families, then that's part of producing an ethical product from my point of view that makes the wait worthwhile. But then again I'm not a part of the industry, perhaps a similar motto decorates the walls inside Ubisoft's lair. 

18 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

Will and Astrid look like a generic drama couple, who lost their child(probably). Man started to drink, woman concentrated on work, they are separated but deep inside care about each other, yadda-yadda.

 

[Broze]

Hey everyone. 

I'm new here, I'm not new to the game though, I've been playing it since it was first released as a in development game on the Xbox. Anyway, I only ever really played survival mode, but after taking a year or so out, I've just got round to completing episode 3. 

But I did lose my sleeping roll in the mine somewhere, and I really hope episode four starts off with one at the beginning. It's tiring almost being electrocuted whilst exploring mines haha 

What a great game it is. I can't get enough of survival and still need to explore the new maps.

Also, I know it's off topic. But when it says season one. Does this mean that they will be developing a season 2 after they finish episodes four and five? Two soon to ask probably, but maybe someone here knows?

Anyway, nice to virtually meet you all. 

[Stinky socks]

I wish they both froze to death together in the end

[Sherlock Holmes 18]

Hayır, neden ölüyorlar ki?

 Sanki içimden bir ses 5.bölümün karantina yönetimi hakkında olacağını hissediyorum. 

Yani karantina dan kaçan insanları yakalamak ve yerine geri götürmek gibi belki kim bilir "A Way Out" oyunundaki gibi iki kişiyi kontrol edebiliriz. 

[SpitztheGreat]

I wasn't going to contribute because the wait hasn't really bothered me, but then I saw that number.

15+ months.

I sat here and let that sink in.

15+ months since Episode 3 was released.

That struck me hard because it made me realize something; I don't care. Whatever momentum this game had is completely lost. In those 15+ months, I've moved on. I'm either playing Survival mode, or I'm dabbling in other projects. Will and Astrid's story simply isn't compelling enough to survive 15+ months of near radio silence. It's not a bad story, there's a lot of care put into it, but very few narratives could survive such a long hiatus. And it wasn't as though the first three episodes came out in rapid succession and built up momentum, they were released very slowly in a sputtering development cycle.

I'm of the opinion that HL owes us nothing at this point. For the number of hours of entertainment that I've gotten out of TLD, HL are heroes. They made one hell of a game and that's the biggest compliment I could pay them. But I think it's fair to criticize them at this point for the development of Wintermute. Wintermute's development feels like it has turned into an example of poor project management. Two episodes, then a remake of those two episodes, then a third episode, and then radio silence on episode four, all over a 4 year period. That's not good. Meanwhile, Survival mode is still getting great new (FREE!) content. It doesn't take a genius to see that something is amiss behind the scenes. 

If they were to just straight up cancel Wintermute at this point, I wouldn't be surprised. At minimum, they've got to be muttering to themselves "Never again" regarding a game with episodic narrative structure.

[Stinky socks]

Well, the reason I believe many spend a lot of time in the game is due to the gameplay style. You either love it or you dont have the patience for the survival grind and drop it. This isn't a game like call of duty for a casual blow stuff up and done.

Re: long development, well Cyberpunk2077 has been developed for a while too, and I'm sure they're quite a bit bigger than hinterland. About 500 people worked on CP2077.