episode 4 & 5 ?

[Holger]

Hello, I am now 65 years old, am I still experiencing the end of The Long Dark, or am I dying of old age?

[Guest kristaok]

Huh? Episode 3 just came out... so I wouldn't expect to see ep4 for another year or more.

[KinoUnko]

1 year is fairly long, to be honest, for just one episode lasting a few hours. but we'll just have to take what we get.

[RegentRelic]

One year ain't long. Not long at all.

[Guest kristaok]

30 minutes ago, KinoUnko said:

1 year is fairly long, to be honest, for just one episode lasting a few hours. but we'll just have to take what we get.

It may seem like that as a fan, but not for a dev. I don't doubt that it takes a lot of time and money to do all of this. 

[KinoUnko]

I suspect there's parallel development on some other things. 

[Guest kristaok]

5 hours ago, KinoUnko said:

I suspect there's parallel development on some other things. 

Could be, maybe - maybe not. 

I wouldn't be suprised though If Hinterland is only doing one Episode at a time though considering they are a smaller indie team. I mean maybe if they were EA, sure...  but they're not so we need to give them some wiggle room. 

1 hour ago, Dum_Gen said:

Well, I am pretty sure that my laptop dies before ch.4 and 5 will be released. Did not think about it when I bought the game several years ago.

I can agree Episode 3 took a long time and the wait sucked, but I can also see why it took a long time. The wait was made a lot longer due to Hinterland making the decision to do the Redux on Episode 1&2. And to be honest... I'm glad they did the Redux even though it did make the wait on Episode 3 a lot longer. I played TLD before the Redux, yea no offense but the Redux is a LOT better!  

[Enigma]

I can wait, the problem for them is that the longer you hold off an expansion, the higher expectations of players will get. 

[RegentRelic]

Wonder if episode five will have alternate endings. I would say yes because that is common thing indie games do to spice it up. But the long dark is already spicy in just the right ways and it could make any attempt at a larger universe unnecessarily complicated.

[Guest kristaok]

@Dum_Gen I get what you're saying, but at the same time those who bought it knew it was an Episodic Game, also nobody was promised a set date for these Episodes. 

As for no more 32bit support Hinterland isn't the only one doing this, EA is also doing this with The Sims 4 as well. It is what it is... plus people on older PC's who want to game need to realize this is the future. The older rigs are outdated, and games must go forward, these companies can't be expected to release games to support obsolete stuff. 

Look at me for instance I had bought a couple years ago an Asus Rog Laptop for $1600+ it just recently died, and I had to purchase another Laptop so I got an MSI around $3k. Yea it sucked, but when you're a gamer ya gotta do what ya gotta do. 

Ps. As for the Redux again in my opinion it was worth it for them to redo Episode 1&2, if you liked it before that's great but I like the Redux better. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by kristaok

[ManicManiac]

Crossroads Elegy just came out... and we know there is an update set for December.

 

...Patience... I've mentioned it in other posts because folks were doling out the same complaints regarding episode 3:

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 3:51 AM, ManicManiac said:

[text removed for brevity]

We already know the team is focusing their efforts on the next episode.  ...I urge patience.  Even though the team has been growing and expanding, it's still a relatively small independent studio.

I would again urge patience.  I'm sure the team will be eager to share news when they have something to share with us.  Lets give them room to work and show them a little faith, we know they are working on it... and we know they do great work.  That's why we are all here.

Hang in there survivors, it's going to be okay...  

 

It also brings up to what I discussed previously about some folks not ever being satisfied, and always wanting something more or need something to complain about regardless of what they have.  Which always reminds me of:

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 11:48 PM, ManicManiac said:

Remember, "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie..."

 

[Guest kristaok]

@Dum_Gen Yea but we can't say for sure that this is 60% of the story... after all there could be more Seasons / Episodes coming. We were only promised 5 free Episodes with the purchase, meaning Hinterland can and may make more and charge for them. 

Either way complaining won't change a thing. It is what it is. All we can do at this point is wait. 

[Tohono O'odham Man]

I just finished episode 3 . It was a very good game except for a few things. The first thing is the timber wolves they where like a last minute add on and they where rushed to be programmed in the game. And the game was short and not enough missions. The legendary books are an awesome idea and wish their was more or some legends from the first nations people. Why are no first nationas people included in the game hinterland? Over all it was a very good short episode.

[ManicManiac]

10 minutes ago, Tohono O'odham Man said:

the timber wolves they where like a last minute add on and they where rushed to be programmed in the game

That is quite an assumption to make... and likely not the case.  I can understand that being something you personally didn't like, but I think it's pretty presumptuous to insinuate they did a rush job and don't care about the quality of their product.  I think we all know that's untrue.

I respect your opinions and personal feelings about the game... but I don't think it's cool to frame that opinion as a judgment of the Hinterland teams' intentions or ethics on quality of work because you don't like a particular mechanic.  To me that just seemed a little over the line.

[Guest kristaok]

Noooooo ! I LOVE the Timberwolves!!!

[Guest kristaok]

@Dum_Gen I think it's gonna happen though. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling it'll stretch out. 

Just be prepared. 

[Guest kristaok]

Just now, Dum_Gen said:

I think it would be a good question for Milton Mailbag, if Raphael haven't answered it already.

I agree  

[ManicManiac]

17 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

I think it would be a good question for Milton Mailbag, if Raphael haven't answered it already.

@Dum_Gen & @kristaok :  Raph did answer it!  

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 2:25 AM, Raphael van Lierop said:

No, we are not bringing Timberwolves into Survival Mode yet. We have a lot of work to do to get the packs functioning correctly across all our regions. For the launch on Tuesday, they are only in Episode Three. Timberwolves will be added to Survival Mode ASAP.

[Guest kristaok]

@ManicManiac I think they were referring to the possibilities of more Seasons / Episodes beyond the (free) promised 5.

[ManicManiac]

9 minutes ago, kristaok said:

I think they were referring to the possibilities of more Seasons / Episodes

oh... my mistake.  I must have misread.

Yep I misread, sorry folks... I thought a timber wolf sidebar had started.

Edited November 8, 2019 by ManicManiac

[RegentRelic]

On 11/7/2019 at 7:59 PM, Dum_Gen said:

Yea but we can't say for sure that this is 60% of the story... after all there could be more Seasons / Episodes coming. We were only promised 5 free Episodes with the purchase, meaning Hinterland can and may make more and charge for them.

If my theory of episode four and five is correct then episode five be rather long.

[SpitztheGreat]

I think this raises an interesting question that we as consumers, and the industry at large, need to answer: what is the appropriate model for episodic games? On Tuesday, I'll be picking up Shenmue 3, so I can confidently say that I do not have a problem waiting for a game. However, the episodic model of gaming presents challenges to balance such as scope, expectations, and an acceptable development period. As mentioned earlier, other episodic games like Life is Strange released a full season within a year of launch, but we would all agree that the scope of those games is smaller than TLD. TLD has much more actual gameplay than most episodic games- so this mandates a longer development cycle. But how do the devs balance this? I've only been playing for a year (like literally, I bought the game almost exactly a year ago) so the delay hasn't really bothered me, but as I've learned more about the development cycle, I think there are fair questions to be raised. From a purely project management perspective I have to wonder if an episodic release strategy was correct for this game. Considering the scope of the project, the size of the team & resources available, TLD may not have been the best choice as an episodic game. Obviously many lessons have been learned by the team over the last two years and I don't want to minimize those. But there does need to be a balance between new content and consistent releases. It is a lot to expect fans to stick around for a 4 hour episode when there's only one episode every ~10 months, especially with the serialized nature of the game. When you as a player are invested in a story, taking ~10 months off between releases definitely diminishes your immersion.

We'll see what happens with the last two episodes. From where I sit, I do think there is a way to better balance the scope of TLD and the long development periods; make each episode self-contained. I think it would benefit season 2 if each episode was a self contained story (maybe with some overlapping elements, but nothing serialized). That way if there's only one episode every 10 months at least it was a complete experience with a beginning, middle, and end. As I get older, I find myself more interested in these sort of stories, instead of the long, 22 episode seasons, for 8 seasons, I have grown to prefer tight, short, mini-series; or a fully self contained 3 hour movie. Changing the formula like this might also help keep things fresh for the dev team and the audience, each episode could have new challenges and goals without the weight of a larger narrative to advance. 

[Guest jeffpeng]

On 11/6/2019 at 10:47 PM, Holger said:

Hello, I am now 65 years old, am I still experiencing the end of The Long Dark, or am I dying of old age?

Hallo Holger,

I hope that you will have the priviledge of dying of old age in the distant future. I also am hopeful that we'll see at least annual releases of the two upcoming episodes now that the stuff done with redux bears fruit, and as such I am confident (in both you and Hinterland) that you'll have the chance to experience the conclusion of Wintermute while still in your best years.

[Guest jeffpeng]

On 11/7/2019 at 2:40 AM, kristaok said:

it takes a lot of time and money to do all of this. 

Correct.

On 11/8/2019 at 1:30 AM, Tohono O'odham Man said:

the game was short and not enough missions

I can't agree. No idea how long it took you to finish Episode Three, and how your gaming time budget is structured, but it took me almost two weeks to finish all the missions and the main plot. That's quite some time to put in and considering it's "just" an Episode .... I can't complain. Although I should add I played it on hard, which probably stretches it quite a bit.

On the question of more Seasons in The Long Dark: I think both yes and no. Raph previously hinted at the fact that with the conclusion of Wintermute TLD really will have done a ton of content, much of it "for free" (yes, I know, some will argue this statement), and that at some point it'll be time for a new game. But it was also recently confirmed here that there will be a TLD 2 at some point in the future. So I guess The Long Dark as we know it will be mostly "done" after Wintermute, and that we'll see future stories be told in a follow up game.

From a developers perspective I agree with that. Considering how much time they invested in TLD after its launch already, and that at this point, especially with the Studio growing substantially, costs will probably overcome sales income at some point or already have, they will have to look at a new product to put on Steam eventually. And with TLD being already an "old" game from a technical standpoint it makes sense to transport new stories in a new game that makes use of technologies that have emerged over the past 6 to 7 years.

A good example of limitations that used to apply but no longer would is how interiors work in TLD. If you enter a cave or a building another "game world" is loaded. Back then when The Long Dark was created the Unity Game Engine simply did not support streaming parts of the game world on demand. You had to load what you needed before the player could enter. This not only puts a limit on how big a region can be, but also how much can be in the region at any given time. Hence.... do houses need to be seperate scenes that do not interact with and actually do not exist in the region they are located in so that the regions are not overloaded. Also when the game was originally designed memory and CPU time was much more of a constraint as it is now, and solid state storage was a rather new thing most players wouldn't want to afford for a gaming PC (I paid a horrendous 250 Euros for a 120 Gigabyte Samsung 830 back in the day... which still works today I might add  )

You can relatively easily understand that when you look at the Hardware the original Jaguar consoles had. 8 CPU cores, originally designed for the Low-Power mobile market, at a measly 1.6 to 1.75 GHz without SMT (aka Hyperthreading), some of them reserved to the consoles background tasks, with L2 Cache shared among 4 CPU cores each, and no L3 Cache at all. That means games that run on the original PS4 or XBoxOne have to make due with about the same processing power as a modern entry level smartphone. (Compare an Athlon 5150, which is basically half a PS4 CPU [same architecture, same clock speed, but just 4 cores] against a 200 dollar Samsung A10e) Memory was 8 GiB of Ram shared between Game and Graphics Unit, and the available storage was a for modern standards unbearably slow big old spinning hard disk.

That is the hardware TLD was originally designed with in mind. Even a very modest gaming PC in the sub 1000 dollar range outstrips this by several factors in every regard, and the current game is very much playable at 1080p on something like a 2200G (I know, I tried) which you can duct tape together with the other essential components for around 250 dollars. The new consoles we'll see at the end of next year will vastly outperform what even the PS4 Pro and XBoxOne X (and most midrange gaming PCs ...) can deliver. So as both a game developer and as a customer that owns either a modern midrange gaming PC or one of these new consoles you'll want to take advantage of that. But to do that .... it'll take a new game. There is a very real critical mass at which it becomes easier to develop a software new from scratch than to expand on the product you already have (I know, I do that for a living ...). And a game as mature as TLD is way past that point.

So long story short .... yes, there will be more after Wintermute, but no, not in the current game. Mark my words. 😉

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by jeffpeng

[Corso]

Honestly i paid what I consider very little for TLD on PS4 - I wouldn't have been upset if all I'd got was 1-2 updates for the survival mode it would still have been a ton more value than some of the full price games I've bought in the last couple of years.

Wintermute has however left me a little cold and felt like just a longer vesion of one of the challenge modes - not that I hated the story, just that with knowing the mechanics and map inside out I was left with little extra to experience