Mine shafts!

[enraged_camel]

It would be pretty cool if the various mines in the game had mine-shafts, which are basically huge holes in the ground that lead to lower areas of the mine.

This would add two things to the game:

1. The risk of falling into a mine shaft and dying if one does not watch where they are going (or tries to explore the mine without a sufficient light source)
2. The ability to use the climbing rope to climb up/down shafts, perhaps to access secret areas

What do you guys think? 

[aurora]

I love this idea.

[Muk_Pile]

+1 to mine shafts as hazards and potentially rewarding secret areas!

[rla1974]

The Mines of Victoria

[Wastelander]

Love the idea. Since I live and was raised in a major mining region of my country (especially coal mines!), the mines implemented seem a bit... I don't want to say 'lackluster' but I have to. The coal they got from those little shafts most likely didn't even pay for a day's wage. 

Also, this is what a proper coal mine looks from outside:

Although I do have to say that the sheer amount of stuff that gets abandoned on those would probably make a proper map of its own - the mine in the pic was closed around 20 years ago if I recall correctly (I live pretty close to it), and if you, uh, 'go for a walk' there, you can still find fully functioning pickaxes, hammers etc. if you know what to look for. There's also some explosives the city hasn't found yet which is currently pretty much AWOL.

If you would like to know any more about coal mining in general, feel free to ask me  What I, personally, cannot answer I will ask my stepdad who was underground for a decade and suffered loss of hearing from it.

Also, relevant song:

 

[EternityTide]

In South Wales we used to have hundreds of shallow mines, and dozens of deep coal mines, one such mine, known as "Big Pit" used to excavate a quarter of a million tonnes of coal a year. A lot of the South Wales coal field was extremely high quality anthracite, and was the mainstay of the British Empire's ships, locomotives and factories. At one point, the global price of coal was determined at the Cardiff coal exchange.

I've visited big pit and gone down into the tunnels, and I can tell you, it's very different from the mines in the long dark. For one thing, it was much deeper, at about 290 feet underground. It was also far more extensive, and less meandering. It was dead silent. When you switched off your lamp, the darkness was almost tangible. Another thing was the uneven ceiling. Sometimes you would have a good metre of space above you, other times you had to hunch your shoulders and bend forward a fair bit, to avoid hitting the ceiling (although I'm 6'2", so other people might find it less claustrophobic).

[cekivi]

Neat stories. Though I agree working mines would be huge... the scale required for an accurate depiction would likely dwarf all of the other locations presently in the game. As it is I'll settle for not realistic but realistic for the game.

However, if there is a redesign of the current mines or inclusion of an abandoned mine site (even if it's just the top level) it would make for a fascinating place to explore. A friend of mine in Alaska told me a story of when his dad took him climbing into a mine abandoned in the 60's. Everything from the mess hall's dinner trays to mining equipment was all left behind. The entrance was blasted shut but the air shafts were still open and that's how they got in: climbing down a tunnel with hot air blowing into your face from the depths of the mine...

Again, very neat if it can be done in a balanced way

[akodo1]

I guess I always figured those were very old mines, like 1820s mines, which was why they were so small.

[vancopower]

On 5.10.2016 at 7:15 PM, enraged_camel said:

It would be pretty cool if the various mines in the game had mine-shafts, which are basically huge holes in the ground that lead to lower areas of the mine.

This would add two things to the game:

1. The risk of falling into a mine shaft and dying if one does not watch where they are going (or tries to explore the mine without a sufficient light source)
2. The ability to use the climbing rope to climb up/down shafts, perhaps to access secret areas

What do you guys think? 

Awesome idea good job, maybe they could add an actual mining mechanic so you will be incentivized to go there not just for the random loot but to mine ores like: Coal, Iron, Sulfur (For gunpowder) and so on...

[Wastelander]

47 minutes ago, vancopower said:

Awesome idea good job, maybe they could add an actual mining mechanic so you will be incentivized to go there not just for the random loot but to mine ores like: Coal, Iron, Sulfur (For gunpowder) and so on...

I disgree on the mining mechanic - mining stuff by hand is extremely hard work to get proper quantities, especially with only one person doing the mining. Then, extracting usable materials from ores requires an understanding of the chemistry behind it, specialised equipment and, at least in the case of iron, high temperatures from blast furnaces. Sulfur is especially difficult - it's chemically bound in most fossile fuels and some volcanic rocks - so without a volcano, there's no sulfur, let alone the chemical industry necessary to extract it. Gypsum does contain sulfur, but then again, our characters lack both the knowledge and, more importantly, the equipment to extract it. I'm no expert on the matter though so I shall leave any in-depth explanations of the chemistry behind it to @cekivi if he would kindly let us in on some of his secret knowledge  

[EternityTide]

Coal and sulphur needs very little processing before it can be used, as much of the time it's harvested in its native forms. Coal is usually found in deep seams underground, and Sulphur in its commercially harvested form, is usually found around volcanic vents and in deposits near thermal springs. Iron is a bit more complex, but still simple, however smelting haematite is not a one person job.

Iron processing requires the ore to be heated to 1200 °C in a blast furnace, where it is layered with coke (refined coal). This reduces the Iron oxides by producing Carbon monoxide, which is a more reactive compound than the iron, and so it "steals" oxygen off of the iron oxide. The molten iron separates from the impurities, which form into a layer called Slag. The iron is tapped off and cast into ingots of "pig iron". The pig iron is then shipped off to be refined into steel.

So no, this can't really be done by the one person, especially an unskilled individual with no knowledge of the iron industry, such as our bush pilot/doctor

[cekivi]

2 hours ago, Wastelander said:

Gypsum does contain sulfur, but then again, our characters lack both the knowledge and, more importantly, the equipment to extract it. I'm no expert on the matter though so I shall leave any in-depth explanations of the chemistry behind it to @cekivi if he would kindly let us in on some of his secret knowledge  

A geologist or engineer would actually be more helpful with this

Chemists don't really need to worry about mineral extraction because I can usually buy what I need already purified. Worse, the way I'd think to extract minerals would probably not be how they're done commercially. What I can elucidate though is why mineral extraction is hard: oxidation state. The metals that we use day to day are in their zero oxidation state and thus can behave as metals (e.g. malleable, conduct electricity, etc.). Minerals are metal salts where there is a charged metal bound to an anion (usually sulfide or oxide). To get a usable metal we not only have to extract the mineral from the ore but also extract the metal from the mineral (if that makes sense). Only extremely high grade ores won't require some form of chemical or electrical reduction (and usually a lot of heat too) in order to isolate the pure metal (see smelting described by @EternityTide above). While this can be done without modern technology (see the bronze age) any sort of mineral extraction and metal purification requires a lot of knowledge and a large labour force.

[Mikhail_Reign]

Hasn't anyone seen Army of Darkness? Everyone carries a Chemistry 101 in the boot a their car

 

More relevant - support this idea. I live in a Gold Rush town. The bush they surrounds up is filled with open mine shafts just like this. Just small open air holes, or collapsed roofs everywhere.

[cekivi]

Welcome to the forums @Mikhail_Reign 

I assume gold rush town means the North American West Coast or Australia?

[vancopower]

On 6.10.2016 at 8:51 PM, Wastelander said:

I disgree on the mining mechanic - mining stuff by hand is extremely hard work to get proper quantities, especially with only one person doing the mining. Then, extracting usable materials from ores requires an understanding of the chemistry behind it, specialised equipment and, at least in the case of iron, high temperatures from blast furnaces. Sulfur is especially difficult - it's chemically bound in most fossile fuels and some volcanic rocks - so without a volcano, there's no sulfur, let alone the chemical industry necessary to extract it. Gypsum does contain sulfur, but then again, our characters lack both the knowledge and, more importantly, the equipment to extract it. I'm no expert on the matter though so I shall leave any in-depth explanations of the chemistry behind it to @cekivi if he would kindly let us in on some of his secret knowledge  

Well we could mine coal at least it will make more sense than just collecting it from the ground don't you think ?

[cekivi]

@vancopower: depends on how the mines were put there. If they predate mechanized mining there's probably usable material still present if you're desperate enough to try and get it. If the miners were using machines though you'd have to go so deep or the grade would be so poor that it would be completely unrealistic for a single survivor to do.

[vancopower]

On 7.10.2016 at 11:12 PM, cekivi said:

@vancopower: depends on how the mines were put there. If they predate mechanized mining there's probably usable material still present if you're desperate enough to try and get it. If the miners were using machines though you'd have to go so deep or the grade would be so poor that it would be completely unrealistic for a single survivor to do.

hmm, coal is not so hard to mine i think it is weaker even then stone you'll just need to find a good spot where to hit not to bury yourself with it. Yea coal mining is dangerous but the reward might be good if you get like 20Kgs of coal from a single mining action yea sure I would risk it. This could also be some sort of a mechanic, you could chip away small piece, or medium one or bury yourself depending on your mining skill, fatigue and light source . Why should we get coal the easy way when everything else is so hard to get.  The man who risks nothing gains nothing right? free coal is not in TLD style I think.

[Mikhail_Reign]

But you wouldn't be 'mining' any. It's a mine - any coal that was readily accessIble in it was already mined - what we are doing is picking up spoil. We wouldn't be taking a pick to the wall. If there was any to be found by a single man, it would have been found when the mine was active. Mines don't get closed with a vein still active. 

[EternityTide]

slag heaps would also be nearby, near the entrances. Sometimes, when I lived close to one, I used to fill up a bag with coal from the slag heap. There's a lot of usable coal still in it, its just not economical to commercially extract it, but for the one person, one afternoon's wandering around with a burlap sack can net you a good 30-40 kilos of the stuff, if you dig around.

[vancopower]

On 9.10.2016 at 3:09 AM, EternityTide said:

slag heaps would also be nearby, near the entrances. Sometimes, when I lived close to one, I used to fill up a bag with coal from the slag heap. There's a lot of usable coal still in it, its just not economical to commercially extract it, but for the one person, one afternoon's wandering around with a burlap sack can net you a good 30-40 kilos of the stuff, if you dig around.

Yes see there could be something like that in the mine shafts, maybe when they closed the mine they just dumped it back it, or the mine was not closed at all when the disaster occurred, my point is it would be a good game play  mechanic. instead of just picking it up we could spent time to dig it up with a light source. Now that we have a way of generating lamp fuel we might as well use it more efficiently for getting massive amounts of coal at once.  For example:

There will be slag heaps in mine shafts small piles that can be intractable like the fishing holes. You can spend time in hours to dig up some coal and you will require a light source to do it. The more time you spend the greater the chance of finding lots of coal ores. Also if you don't plan well the light source may exhaust itself in the middle of the action and you'll get nothing. 

 

[MarrowStone]

From my observation there seems to have been some sort of seismic activity along with the Aurora. A collasped highway, commuter's lament, End of the Road, derailed trains, tunnel collapse, broken wall in stone church etc.

So it would justified if i said i just assumed the coal fell from the rocks and collaspes in the mine, some of which were fresh ones (why some people died in the mines)

Not all mines seem to have been abandoned either, some mention it in their names while others just have a normal name.

[EternityTide]

1 hour ago, vancopower said:

Yes see there could be something like that in the mine shafts, maybe when they closed the mine they just dumped it back it, or the mine was not closed at all when the disaster occurred, my point is it would be a good game play  mechanic. instead of just picking it up we could spent time to dig it up with a light source. Now that we have a way of generating lamp fuel we might as well use it more efficiently for getting massive amounts of coal at once.  For example:

There will be slag heaps in mine shafts small piles that can be intractable like the fishing holes. You can spend time in hours to dig up some coal and you will require a light source to do it. The more time you spend the greater the chance of finding lots of coal ores. Also if you don't plan well the light source may exhaust itself in the middle of the action and you'll get nothing. 

 

when I say "nearby entrances", I mean, "outside, nearby mine entrances". Slag heaps are colossal things, and they wouldn't be found inside a mine. To give you an idea of the scale these things are at, read about the Aberfan disaster.

[Mikhail_Reign]

On 7 October 2016 at 4:00 PM, cekivi said:

Welcome to the forums @Mikhail_Reign 

I assume gold rush town means the North American West Coast or Australia?

The land downunder. I live in the Golden Triangle (peak area in the gold rush) - we still have active good mines. But if you go bush that's where you start to find old one horse jobs - they pull a body from them every year or so of someone who stumbles down them.

[togg]

Very interesting material for new places.

[cekivi]

On ‎2016‎-‎10‎-‎09 at 7:40 PM, Mikhail_Reign said:

The land downunder. I live in the Golden Triangle (peak area in the gold rush) - we still have active good mines. But if you go bush that's where you start to find old one horse jobs - they pull a body from them every year or so of someone who stumbles down them.

Well, that's a little morbid. There's abandoned mines around where I grew up but they're mostly inaccessible. The only one I know for sure that still has open shafts is completely underwater so at least falling in isn't a risk.