suggestion please add spears to the game

[rikard]

please!!! Add spears to the game!!!

I'm trying to put myself self in the situation of the character of the game. If I would see a wolf at the distance, my first reaction it would be walk (or run) in the opposite direction, second, I'll try to make a spear, not a flint spear nor a steel spear, a wood with the tip sharpen.

Also, this craft able item it could be improved by the wood used and by the times made; for example if you craft it with fir wood it may be used 2 - 3 times before it breaks, if used maple sampling 10 - 12 times. And for the time improvement, well after 10 wood fires and 5 spears crafted you may burn a little the tip of the spear to make the tip harder.

what do you think?

[Wastelander]

Spears and other improvised primitive weapons have been suggested a lot on these forums, but it can't hurt to breathe new life into this discussion.

Personally, I am 100% for the spear - literally everyone knows how to make a very simple one (sometimes I believe that humans have had this knowledge for so long it's somehow ingrained into our brains). Spears have been the number one weapon of mankind for over 40.000 years - they extend our reach and allow us to harm animals without allowing them to harm us. The materials to craft them are already in the game. Aside from how to implement their use gameplay-wise, I can't see any reason not to add spears.

Personally, I'd use a modification of the brandishing-mechanic - instead of swinging the spear left and right you thrust forward and if the distance and timing is correct, it deals damage. How about you?

[AZHockeyNut]

I would love to skewer that wolf when he comes running in for an attack....wolf on a stick, slowly turn over open flame, eat.... yum! ;-)

 

[tnbp]

I have long been in favor of some type of spear idea.  It's likely one of the first things someone would do if this scenario were real.  It should be in there, IMO.

[Dirmagnos]

Short spear from getgo with Polearms skill. At lvl3 player "figures out" how to craft long spear that gives him 5%(+5% on lvl4 and 5) chance to impale attacking wolves, killing them without taking any damage. Start with simple sharpened stick, add improvised tips, be it knife or forged tip, handles, counterbalance. There could be a lot of room for implementation.

[Wastelander]

Just now, Dirmagnos said:

Short spear from getgo with Polearms skill. At lvl3 player "figures out" how to craft long spear that gives him 5%(+5% on lvl4 and 5) chance to impale attacking wolves, killing them without taking any damage. Start with simple sharpened stick, add improvised tips, be it knife or forged tip, handles, counterbalance. There could be a lot of room for implementation.

I like this, Nice progression, adds long-term gameplay value, which the game is, at least in my opinion, currently lacking. 

[TheRealNFK]

How would the basic game mechanic work? Right now the only melee action is the wolf struggle, which feels something like a QTE, except you have to fill up the bar to drive it off. Assuming they are not going to implement a full-on melee system, would a spear also function this way, where you have to let the animal close to a certain distance, then fill a bar with mouse clicks? Or would it become a timing QTE, where if you screw up the animal gets inside the spear range and the struggle reverts to the existing mechanic?.

[AZHockeyNut]

to me the game mechanic would be two part. The throwing of the spear would be similar to archery for sure. The other part would be in the wolf struggle, perhaps a different key or some additional damage to start for the wolf if you time it right when he attacks (meaning he is skewered or grazed by it initially)  also a chance to knock it from your grip and therefore you are fighting with bare hands and not a knife or crowbar. At a minimum you could bring in the throwing of the spear very quickly as you have the arrow and it is essentially a larger arrow with a shorter range.

 

[Dirmagnos]

Spear could work as addition to current combat system, as first phase. Player can chose to either throw spear or lunge it as wolf gets close. Throwing could possibly do more damage, but require quite some practice and precision, while jab, due to proximity would be simpler to perform. Then normal fight phase begins. Also after either action player is off-balance for 2 seconds(unless its a thrust and player hits wolf), unable to fight, even if wolf is on top of him.

[Boston123]

Spears kill through blood loss, so throwing a spear at a charging wolf will only 1) literally throw away your weapon, and 2) piss it off even more.

No, hold the spear instead, and brace it on the ground or against your foot. Don't be an idiot and throw it.

[Dirmagnos]

Spears can kill animal as well as arrows, since they kinda use same principle. Bracing spear will have same chance of stopping wolf as throwing it. We are not talking about pikes and armored horsemen, but small, size of big dog, and extremely agile(compared to mounted knights) animal. Dont be an idiot and expect an animal to throw itself onto that solitary stationary spear(even tho it can easily avoid it).

[Boston123]

43 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Spears can kill animal as well as arrows, since they kinda use same principle. Bracing spear will have same chance of stopping wolf as throwing it. We are not talking about pikes and armored horsemen, but small, size of big dog, and extremely agile(compared to mounted knights) animal. Dont be an idiot and expect an animal to throw itself onto that solitary stationary spear(even tho it can easily avoid it).

They don't "kinda" use the same principle, they use the exact same principle, which is the same principle as stabbing the animal with a knife.

Primitive weapons kill through blood loss. Arrows are effective because they are used at long ranges, meaning they can be used before the animal is aware of your presence. 

If you throw the spear, and even if you hit, the blood loss is highly unlikely to actually kill the animal in the time it takes to charge you. If you stab it in close, you will cause much more damage.

[MarrowStone]

The devs actually played around with non-qte melee combat and their reasoning for not implementing it that "it didnt emulate the feeling of panic and frezy youd get from an attack."

In other words, unless every community member started posting about Spears, it may not happen.

Where i stand on this:

A spear should be held, not thrown (throwing Spears takes a lot of practice and the weight and balance of the spear have to be correct for it not to just bounce off the wolf)

You take a lucky jab at the wolf after it charges, or you brandish it to scare it. If you miss, it goes to the original combat, if you hit, the wolf is stunned for a bit and either runs away or charges again. 

However we shouldnt be able to sprint up to the wolf and just jab it until its dead, thatd create a major balancing issue where the player could easily remove all wolves from the map in a matter of hours if he can keep his stamina up.

[akodo1]

I've been pushing for a spear too.  

I envision the spear as a broom handle or closet pole or maybe the trunk of a sapling, and on the end of it you have attached a knife.  There should be a lot of basic kitchen knives around that you can lash (duct-tape?) to the spear.

As far as hunting, I'd make it throwable but short range and inaccurate.  (this is an ad-hoc spear not a carefully crafted and balanced hunting instrument after all)

When equipped, you could 'brandish' it at the wolf.  (not as scary as waving the torch or flare, but threateing)

If the wolf isn't frightened off and does charge (and the spear is equipped) simply play the 'yelp' sound, have a message appear on the screen (wording subject to change) 'the wolf has impaled himself on your spear, but still managed to knock you down and is attacking!' or there's a chance you'd see (the wolf has managed to avoid your spear, has knocked you down, and is attacking.  Then you are on the same quick-time event as before, except it takes less strikes/damage/whatever to get the wolf to run off.  Maybe even include a spear stuck in the wolf graphic while fighting, and absolutely have the wolf limp off with a spear sticking out of him.

[Lovehandel]

I have never understood the call for spears in game. I am not opposed to it I just don't see the need.

 

There are enough bullets and arrows to feed/defend yourself for a thousand days plus (once you get the hang of it), even without fishing or trapping. On this run, I have looted TWM and PV and just arrived in CH, I have 57 bullets, 63 arrows and 5 bows or the materials to make.

 

You cannot have the bow and arrow for at least seven days but finding a rifle on day one or two would not be uncommon. So is the need for a spear to get you past the first couple of weeks or is it an RP/Immersion thing. Either way it would certainly add to the game and open up a few new challenges, I am just curious as to why people want it.

[EternityTide]

I believe people are requesting a melee weapon, as all the "usable" weapons are ranged (in wolf struggles, the hunting knife/prybar/hatchet is an invisible damage modifier). I can see the appeal, but only if the current wolf-struggle mechanic is completed supplanted by a real-time CQC feature, otherwise spears, and other equipable melee weapons, are completely impractical as nothing would ever get in range of an attack. You're more likely going to get gored by a deer than achieve a lethal strike with a melee weapon, and that's only if you can get close enough without it running away.

[MarrowStone]

Good point, @EternityTideI agree that the weapons wouldnt do any lethal damage to the wolves when used as a "ranged" melee attack, and that they simply dont reach far enough to keep the wolf off of you after the first hit anyways. 

however a spear should be able to get one strike in if youre lucky, but it should never insta kill the wolf but rather give a boost to winning, say, as wolf lunges you get a split second to right click to hit if facing wolf, (these numbers could change depending on skill) if you hit, 25% progress for the QTE event boost, and blood loss. 

And i take back the ability to stun the wolf, it should be: you strike wolf, qte always begins afterwards.

And all tools and weapons are used only in QTE

[TheRealNFK]

It just seems that if you introduce a spear, but keep the QTE-style melee combat, then it's really not that different from the current system. If you throw it, you may as well use a bow and arrow already in game. If Hinterland introduced the spear with a full melee system (stab your spear at an animal whenever you want, not just during a struggle), then the game would become, what, a first-person stabber with wolves? It would radically change the game.

Not to mention the time, cost and resources of implementing a full melee system.

[Muk_Pile]

I think that a spear would not only be utilized as a weapon (whether it be to defend yourself before or during an attack), but could potentially benefit as a tool when not in combat: a hiking staff.  This would give it double the utility and would provide us with a simple, yet useful survival tool during the start, middle, and end of the game.  

Basically, when you starting a new game, you could pick up a branch and quickly modify it into a walking stick, which not only would grant you a small fatigue bonus while walking, but it might also be used as a "brandishing" tool (though it would far less intimidating compared to a torch or flare).   However, this stick would be too weak to be useful as weapon, so you would have to find a hatchet and a branch of cedar/fir to carve out a hiking staff, an upgraded version of the walking stick.  This staff would be heavier to carry and wouldn't provide any additional fatigue bonus than the walking stick, but it would be slightly more effective as a brandishing tool and would be tough enough to be used as weapon during a wolf struggle (it would be less effective than a crowbar, but better than using your bare hands).  Also, this staff could then be upgraded into a spear (either by hardening the tip over a fire or attaching something sharp to the end of it), which would make it slightly more effective as a brandishing tool and could be used effectively as weapon during a wolf struggle, all the while retaining the fatigue bonus when used as a hiking staff.

All in all, I think adding a spear to TLD would be a great addition, both for it's intuitive design and long term utility!

What do you guys think? 

[akodo1]

For me, including a spear just feels right, it feels like something a person would do in that kind of situation.  If you had man-eating wolves at your door, you'd not shrug and say 'oh, I'll probably find a gun soon' you'd make yourself some sort of weapon.  Spear just seems the most likely to me.

[AZHockeyNut]

@TheRealNFK I don't disagree that a melee style change would mess the game. Some sort of compromise should be available.

Watch any Survivorman/Survivor type thing where there are animals around and one of the first things people craft for defense is a spear. It does not take a knife or hatchet to make one if there is a branch long enough and a rock to rub against it etc. would it be effective? no.

Yes there are bullets and arrows etc. but those weapons are harder to come by in the harder levels and if you had them the spear would be useless to you. However when a novice starts the game, or you start in a more challenging spot or level, a spear that could kill a rabbit when you have nothing else to use or could help fend off a wolf, well, who would not make that?

 

[MarrowStone]

Id like it for defense,  (but unable to kill, just give a boost to qte plus bleeding) but i dont want it to be a hunting tool until the animal AI gets improved..  so many animals just run right through me...

[Wastelander]

How about we keep it simple: Wolf struggle remains but the spear gives you a different animation and a huge damage bonus against the wolf (since that's kind of why we relied on spears for so long, the battle takes place at the other end of it and allowed us to harm animals without them harming us, not to mention their ease of production - literal children can make simple spears) however, they have limited durability. How's that sound?

[tnbp]

14 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

Id like it for defense,  (but unable to kill, just give a boost to qte plus bleeding) but i dont want it to be a hunting tool until the animal AI gets improved..  so many animals just run right through me...

That's how I've always felt about it: it's something to potentially keep an animal at bay-- but if the animal decides to close in, it would no longer be much use.

I'd like to see the mechanic work similar to brandishing a torch but with maybe slightly lower chances to scare the animal off and allowing for the animal to take one hit as it's on the way to attacking you, allowing for a shorter struggle.  That's my vision of it, anyhow.

[Dirmagnos]

22 hours ago, Boston123 said:

Primitive weapons kill through blood loss. Arrows are effective because they are used at long ranges, meaning they can be used before the animal is aware of your presence. 

If you throw the spear, and even if you hit, the blood loss is highly unlikely to actually kill the animal in the time it takes to charge you. If you stab it in close, you will cause much more damage.

Saying that primitive weapons kill thru blood loss is like saying that all aviation-related deaths are caused by plane crashes. Its misleading and incomplete statement, to put it mildly. Most weapons, not just primitive ones, can kill thru blood loss, but they also can kill thru shock or tissue damage, there are a several other causes.

And you seriously claim that only reason that arrows are effective is because animal is not aware of hunters presence ? Are you serious ? Considering that were dealing with inexperienced archer and makeshift bow, its effective range is maybe, just maybe, around 30 meters, so its hardly "long range".

Animals flee because they are hurt, because they are scared, because they are disoriented. None of those are require surprise attack, not to mention that often bows, in game, are used on close ranges at charging wolves and have no problem killing them in 1 shot. Spear could be as effective as arrow, since while it lacks speed it makes up with force due to increased weight. Only problem with throwing vs stabbing is accuracy, otherwise they both could be equally lethal.

@Lovehandel Adding weapons and tools and pretty much anything will expand gaming experince, adding options, in both gameplay and crafting. Sure, we could just do everything with rifle and knife, why would we need bow or hatchet or hacksaw, they are not really necessary for survival, they merely add depth additional options.

17 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

however a spear should be able to get one strike in if youre lucky, but it should never insta kill the wolf but rather give a boost to winning, say, as wolf lunges you get a split second to right click to hit if facing wolf, (these numbers could change depending on skill) if you hit, 25% progress for the QTE event boost, and blood loss. 

Why not have a chance for insta kill ? Its not guaranteed, but having 10-15% chance for fast kill would add uncertainty component to those encounters. Chance is not high enough to rely on it, but it also may be a pleasant surprise when facing a wolf.

Split second ? To pull out your spear, prep it and then stab with it ? And what, always successful stab, if player manages to fit into that split second ? Thats the worse qte implementation possible, and qtes are universally hated to begin with.

Spear should have chance to kill, to wound, to just graze animal. Based on skill, luck and player reaction time. So that it would keep player guessing every time it happens, instead of having guaranteed singular outcome.

16 hours ago, Muk_Pile said:

...a branch of cedar/fir to carve out a hiking staff, an upgraded version of the walking stick.  This staff would be heavier to carry and wouldn't provide any additional fatigue bonus than the walking stick, but it would be slightly more effective as a brandishing tool and would be tough enough to be used as weapon during a wolf struggle (it would be less effective than a crowbar, but better than using your bare hands).  Also, this staff could then be upgraded into a spear (either by hardening the tip over a fire or attaching something sharp to the end of it), which would make it slightly more effective as a brandishing tool and could be used effectively as weapon during a wolf struggle, all the while retaining the fatigue bonus when used as a hiking staff.

Why ? Why every next iteration of stick would make it more effective brandishing tool ? Why would i need a staff to make a spear ? Spears during wolf struggle would be less than useless. Its a weapon that needs some range between player and its attacker.

Why do ppl think that brandishing a stick in front of a wolf is a good idea ? Wolves dislike fire, thats why torches may scare them away. Why stick would scare wolf away ? Its not recommended to do in front of dogs, and while wolves are not dogs, certain parallels may be drawn. Id say effect of brandishing stick in front of wolf would be between none and pissing it off(and its not exactly cuddly to begin with), making it even more aggressive, able to take more damage and dealing more damage when it engages.. 

Best bet for defensive stick usage is either to hold it in front of you and attempt to restrain animal from taking a bite by either sticking it into its mouth(altho if stick is not sturdy enough it may just bite right thru it) or stick it under its chin, when it attacks. Or by trying to poke it into the eye(pain+disorientation) or cause any damage that would cause sufficient pain forcing it to disengage.