After many hours on v.349...

[Schaumrolle24]

Hi everyone!

My feedback after dozens hours of play at all difficulty levels of the current game version and all skills at level 5.
I try to keep everything as short and sweet as possible:

First of a small bug report:
Sticks (at basic skill a burning time of 7 minutes indicated) burn after ignition barely a minute. Therefore, it is usually not possible to refuel and the fire goes off without options to react.

Another small issue: When igniting torches for example, no choice of the ignition is given. General this kind of selection situations need some attention overall.

Now, experiences and suggestions:

When collecting objects, the number of corresponding things in your inventory should be shown for a short time (5 - 10 seconds).
For example, if you've just picked up a stick, the player will see at once that he now has 14 sticks in his backpack, without having to open the inventory menu. This keeps the connection to the game world and enhances the immersion.

I do not like it at all, that from Fire Starting Level 3 there is no more tinder required. If anything, this should be only the case on Level 5. However, I would propose a revision of the properties of igniters and tinder.

Example (some values remain quite unchanged, as they are in the game right now):

Basic chance to make a fire: 40 %

Ignition:
Cardboard matches: - 5 %
Wood matches: +/- 0 %
Firestriker: + 5 %
Burning flare: + 5 %
Burning torch: + 10 %

Tinder:
Newsprint roll: - 5 %
Newsprint: +/- 0 %
Tinder plug: + 5 %
Cattail head: + 5 %
Birch bark: + 10 %

Firewood:
Reclaimed wood: +/- 0 %
Fir firewood: + 5 %
Cedar firewood: +10 %
Firelog: +15 %
Stick: + 20 %
Book: + 30 %

Examples:
With basic skill: Using cardboard matches and a newsprint roll to kindle fir firewood, would give you a chance of: 40 %
With basic skill: Using wood matches and a tinderplug to kindle a stick, would give you a chance of: 65 %
With basic skill: Using a burning torch and birch bark to kindle cedar firewood, would give a chance of: 70 %

I would like to see that the various fire materials offering more different properties. And that there is a difference, if you are using an unchanged rolled-up newspaper to kindle, taking the trouble crafting tinderplugs out of it, or using the rather rare, oleaginous birch bark.
For a professional, making fire without tinder might be possible. But even for him it is significantly easier when he uses tinder. And he certainly will prefer making fire, by using tinder.

I like the new Feats. I’d gladly see more of it!
But rather than making it consistently easier to the player who has unlocked all of them, there should be the choice before starting a new game, which 2 Feats should support the player. Fire Master and Snow Walker? Freerunner and Book Smarts? Or rather Efficient Machine and Cold Fusion?
That would give the player an important decision before each game, bringing more variety and the level of difficulty doesn’t decrease simply constant in the long term.

I 'm sure you already working on it, but the archery must be designed much more attractive! Above all, it requires a bow hunting skill - such as the rifle - and a better ability to get/craft arrows.
The crafting has absolutely no skill system yet. Neither directly nor indirectly.
Speaking of the rifle: It is found too frequently, and there is too much ammunition for it. Suggestion:
"Pilgrim": 1 Rifle per Map
"Voyageur": 2-3 rifles in the game world
"Stalker": 1 rifle in the game world
Let the player, searching for a rifle, becoming a little bit desperate!

Breaking down branches is indeed already designed a bit better and I have used it here and there. But it should be a little faster and more efficient, to look convincing. I ask you: Who needs 10 minutes to break a branch into 3 pieces?!
I would suggest:
Breaking down by hand takes 5 minutes, and yields 3 - 5 sticks randomly.
Breaking down with a hatchet takes 2 minutes, with the same yield.
And that the hatchet takes 2 % damage currently for every use on that, is just ridiculous. Let's say 0.5 percent?

I have read that there is a complete overhaul of the clothing system on the way. That's great! And in abundant need, however.
On the one hand you find too much clothing, in my opinion. At the same time there are too little different garments, that can be found. In combination with the frequent wolves that - I have to say it - often are simply annoying, the findable clothing is definitely superfluous. Skinning 4 frozen deer carcasses on one (!) map (which is also such a complaint…), plus giving the numerous assaulting wolves a point blank shot, or kill them in necessary self-defense: Ricky-tick, you almost accidently got the best boots, pants and coat, without the need for skills or without investing much effort in it. There’s really a hitch in that system!

I was very happy about the new snow shelter and it is a great asset to the game.
However, it offers an equally good protection bonus, quite similar to a cabin. And even those are actually too high in my opinion. At -30°C there is only -5°C in an uninsulated, unheated lodge. Fires/heating needs more function! In this sense, rather less buildings on the maps and with less protection from the cold, but more cabins with a fireplace or stove. Accordingly, the Snow Shelter should be nerfed somewhat. It should be an emergency accommodation, which preserves barely before hypothermia. No more and no less.

Greetings from Brampton, Ontario!! Keep on your good work!
Cheers!

[continuity]

1 hour ago, Schaumrolle24 said:

On the one hand you find too much clothing

In my latest play through (wherein I intend to survive in just ML for as long as possible), I've only found 1 jacket in the entire region (stalker).  That is considerably less than you would realistically find, especially if you count looting corpses.  Who goes to or lives in north Canada without at least one decent jacket? in reality there would be more jackets than people, and I've found a dozen bodies or more.

However, totally agree, far too many wolves and other game animals, and crafted clothes way too good.

The fire system as it stands is complete nonsense on a stick, its like they went half way toward a realistic simulation, then chickened out at the last minute and added some craziness to keep it gamey.  Its just an odd system, not least the fact that logs are entirely redundant, you can just gather armfuls of sticks and have super hot fires burning for hours with no tools required and completely renewable. The whole thing needs to be remodeled from the ground up.  The basic mechanics are great, the way it actually works is bonkers.

[Schaumrolle24]

19 minutes ago, continuity said:

In my latest play through (wherein I intend to survive in just ML for as long as possible), I've only found 1 jacket in the entire region (stalker).  That is considerably less than you would realistically find, especially if you count looting corpses.  Who goes to or lives in north Canada without at least one decent jacket? in reality there would be more jackets than people, and I've found a dozen bodies or more.

I totally agree on that. The system is quite inconsistent there. 
Overall there is a scarcity of useable jackets/coats. But I've seen it often finding for instance 2 jeans, 1 vest, 1 underpants, 1 sweater and 3 pairs of socks in one house. Some time ago, I posted some suggestions here, for clothing et cetera:

He must always butt in.

Self-crafted clothing should be very good, - once you have the proper acquirements and materials for it. But it should be hard to master the needed skills, time consuming to craft it, and more difficult to keep your clothing in good condition.

Good, regular clothing should be a reasonable workaround for the time being. Moderate to find, with a suitable protection and more easy to maintain. 

[AHGoodwin]

Lots of great points and observations that I agree with. 

+1 Totally agree that tinder should continue to be necessary or at the very least provide a boost. 

+1 That different tinder materials should perform differently. 

+1 To needing bow skills

+1 To your suggestion for breaking branches

+1 That the snow shelter needs a bit of a nerf. 

[Rusty_Old_F250]

I agree with pretty much everything, but especially the inside temp. We need more locations with indoor fire, and the cold should be a much bigger threat.

Sam

[Pillock]

Just to add a minor detail to the fire starting suggestions here:

I think you should NEVER be able to reach a point where your chance of lighting a fire is 100%. However experienced or skilled you are, there should always remain some possibility (even if it's very small) that you will fail.

 

[Dirmagnos]

Tinder should stay in, at any level.

Giving matches penalty, but huge bonus to torches is absurd. Have you ever tried to light a fire with torch irl ? And i dont mean some huge bonfire.

Logs should have like -20 penalty instead of bonus. You dont start a fire with logs, you go for small stuff first, then add logs when fire is already up an running. Reclaimed wood should have moderate bonus instead, its dry and its splintered, making it an excellent choice.

Instead of flat value, firestarting chance should be time based, in addition to skill bonus. So if player skill is low, then he can spend more time preparing and more carefully igniting that fire to compensate for lack of skill. Instead of wasting bunch of matches and constant clicking to restart whole process. Like doubling amount of time spent would give 10% modifier(70% to 77%), triple amount of time would give 20% modifier(70% to 84%), etc And success chance should never be above 90%.

Rifle idea is crap. Its from the same category as parasites. Lets just drop player in the middle of the empty map in his underpants and call it a challenge. On Stalker there is already idiotic situation where 4 out of 5 containers are empty. Its tedious not challenging. Quality vs quantity, same as was done with wolves.

And snow shelter is completely over the top, it needs some serious capital nerf. Its like a get-out-of-jail-free card with almost no effort. Way 2 good, way 2 easy.

[cekivi]

4 hours ago, Pillock said:

Just to add a minor detail to the fire starting suggestions here:

I think you should NEVER be able to reach a point where your chance of lighting a fire is 100%. However experienced or skilled you are, there should always remain some possibility (even if it's very small) that you will fail.

 

Like a 95% cap on fire starting skill without accelerant? Failing one in 20 times still seems high but is reasonable in the context of the game.

[Schaumrolle24]

@AHGoodwin & Rusty_Old_F250:
Thank you very much indeed, for your feedback and your approval!

@ Pillock & cekivi:
To be honest: I had the same proposal in mind. But I wasn't that certain about that.
To be consequent, a maximum of 95 % chance not only for fire starting, but pretty much every ingame attemp, e.g. repairing stuff, cooking, crafting, could be quite harsh. Still - I like it! Would be worthy to test it.

@ Dirmagnos:
Say again? You have a different view?! Come off it!!!  
No, I was just messing with you, buddy.I'm glad you agree with us, about the tinder question.

Actually, I used the standard ingame values for both types of matches. No changes by me there.
Well, I bivouacked a couple of times, during my military service, done a survival training course in the Allgäu, and I'm still used to hike through the woods with camping and sometimes fire starting (in german woods: prohibited).
Okay, +10% is a huge bonus? We can argue about that. But I assure you, when kindling a fire, it is a huge difference between a flimsy match, striking sparks, or already having an open flame, dude. And a burning match has a weak flamelet. Easy blown out by a small gust.

But with a proper burning torch (survives a snow storm ingame) I just have to tap my touch-dry tindernest, put some prepared tiny sticks or even feathersticks on it, blow it on - and done! Perhaps I could actually light my featherstick with the torch - without using tinder! But this is guesswork.

About the firewood: Everything here is just a suggestion by me. I could live with this, just as well:

Fir firewood: +/- 0 %
Cedar firewood: +5 %
Reclaimed wood: +10 %
Firelog: +15 %
Stick: + 20 %
Book: + 30 %

Oh, by the way: I would like to see tinderplugs could also be used as fuel! E.g. with +30% kindling bonus and 3 minutes (after kindling!) of burning time.

What do you think? Remember, reclaimed wood could also be a broken down pallet, lying around in the snow for months. Poor choice for making fire. I personally would prefer cedar deadwood, - not picked up from the ground, of course.

I am curious. What is your rifle idea?

[Rusty_Old_F250]

 

17 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Tinder should stay in, at any level.

Giving matches penalty, but huge bonus to torches is absurd. Have you ever tried to light a fire with torch irl ? And i dont mean some huge bonfire.

Logs should have like -20 penalty instead of bonus. You dont start a fire with logs, you go for small stuff first, then add logs when fire is already up an running. Reclaimed wood should have moderate bonus instead, its dry and its splintered, making it an excellent choice.

Instead of flat value, firestarting chance should be time based, in addition to skill bonus. So if player skill is low, then he can spend more time preparing and more carefully igniting that fire to compensate for lack of skill. Instead of wasting bunch of matches and constant clicking to restart whole process. Like doubling amount of time spent would give 10% modifier(70% to 77%), triple amount of time would give 20% modifier(70% to 84%), etc And success chance should never be above 90%.

I agree, getting a log burning by itself is near impossible, I think kindling should become part of the process, and in real life, when I really want to get a fire going, I pile on more tinder. (I usually use wood shavings) Why not do the same thing in the game? 

And I think where your building your fire should affect starting, it's MUCH easier to start a fire in woodstove vs out in the open. WInd should also play a role. Even the slightest breeze makes it a lot harder...

Basically what I'd like to see is indoor fires being easy to light, but making outdoor fires MUCH harder, maybe even have some situations where accelerant is *almost* a necessity...

Sam

[nicko]

wind already plays a role in fires, they get blown out.

[Sly]

On 7/24/2016 at 11:57 PM, Schaumrolle24 said:

Breaking down branches is indeed already designed a bit better and I have used it here and there. But it should be a little faster and more efficient, to look convincing. I ask you: Who needs 10 minutes to break a branch into 3 pieces?!

Right.

On 7/26/2016 at 4:55 AM, Schaumrolle24 said:

Oh, by the way: I would like to see tinderplugs could also be used as fuel! E.g. with +30% kindling bonus and 3 minutes (after kindling!) of burning time.

On 7/25/2016 at 3:45 PM, Dirmagnos said:

Tinder should stay in, at any level.

Or should be some penalty otherwise.

On 7/25/2016 at 3:45 PM, Dirmagnos said:

Logs should have like -20 penalty instead of bonus. You dont start a fire with logs, you go for small stuff first, then add logs when fire is already up an running. Reclaimed wood should have moderate bonus instead, its dry and its splintered, making it an excellent choice.

Agree about the logs. Sure the small stuff first. The same matter the tinder should stay in. With no tinder it is possible to get the fire started, but it is more difficult. So the bigger bonus for sticks, then cedar, then reclaimed wood (yes, it is dry and splintered, but also could have some paint or nastyaddings like pressed shavings with some resin that is not good for fire), so penalty may be OK.

On 7/25/2016 at 7:47 PM, cekivi said:

Like a 95% cap on fire starting skill without accelerant?

On 7/26/2016 at 9:30 AM, Rusty_Old_F250 said:

And I think where your building your fire should affect starting, it's MUCH easier to start a fire in woodstove vs out in the open. WInd should also play a role. Even the slightest breeze makes it a lot harder...

Basically what I'd like to see is indoor fires being easy to light, but making outdoor fires MUCH harder, maybe even have some situations where accelerant is *almost* a necessity...

Rather 99% at stows and somewhat around 98% in snow with no wind. With penalties depending on wind speed (several grades).

 

 

[Dirmagnos]

On 7/26/2016 at 4:55 AM, Schaumrolle24 said:

Say again? You have a different view?! Come off it!!!  

Quote

Actually, I used the standard ingame values for both types of matches. No changes by me there.
Well, I bivouacked a couple of times, during my military service, done a survival training course in the Allgäu, and I'm still used to hike through the woods with camping and sometimes fire starting (in german woods: prohibited).
Okay, +10% is a huge bonus? We can argue about that. But I assure you, when kindling a fire, it is a huge difference between a flimsy match, striking sparks, or already having an open flame, dude. And a burning match has a weak flamelet. Easy blown out by a small gust.But with a proper burning torch (survives a snow storm ingame) I just have to tap my touch-dry tindernest, put some prepared tiny sticks or even feathersticks on it, blow it on - and done! Perhaps I could actually light my featherstick with the torch - without using tinder! But this is guesswork.

When campfire is properly set, with tinder and stuff all it takes a small fire in the right spot. I presume that were talking about small, relatively neat, campfire.

Quote

Oh, by the way: I would like to see tinderplugs could also be used as fuel! E.g. with +30% kindling bonus and 3 minutes (after kindling!) of burning time.

What do you think? Remember, reclaimed wood could also be a broken down pallet, lying around in the snow for months. Poor choice for making fire. I personally would prefer cedar deadwood, - not picked up from the ground, of course.

I am curious. What is your rifle idea?

Yes, tinderplugs and newspaper should be usable as fuel source, but i think it should be usable in bulk, like 5 tindeplugs at the time, otherwise you will have to click for half an hour to add sufficient amount if  you have a lot of them.

Even broken down pallet, that has been laying around there for a while, is usually better than random logs(unless were talking firelogs) or sticks.

Leave rifle as is. But when player finds his first rifle, then every next spawn spot has 75/25% chance to be replaced by ammo. If all rifles are spawned at game start, i still not sure how it works, then they have same chance to be replaced with ammo upon finding first rifle.

While i mainly use rifle for bear hunting and bow is a weapon of choice in general, i prefer it to stay this way, a choice, instead of limiting me to 1 rifle per game, so that i dont find it till im already 2 months in and have no use for it. In the beginning, due to lack of bow and arrows, rifle can make a lot of difference.

On 7/26/2016 at 9:30 AM, Rusty_Old_F250 said:

I agree, getting a log burning by itself is near impossible, I think kindling should become part of the process, and in real life, when I really want to get a fire going, I pile on more tinder. (I usually use wood shavings) Why not do the same thing in the game? 

And I think where your building your fire should affect starting, it's MUCH easier to start a fire in woodstove vs out in the open. WInd should also play a role. Even the slightest breeze makes it a lot harder...

Basically what I'd like to see is indoor fires being easy to light, but making outdoor fires MUCH harder, maybe even have some situations where accelerant is *almost* a necessity...

Sam

Yes, to all.

If player is not good enough, then he could just add more tinder, since its fairly easy to lit, to increase chances of success.

And yes, building campfires on snow always irked me in game. Stoves should have a moderate bonus to firestarting, flat snow-free surfaces to be ok-ish, and building on snow should be possible only to most experienced on survivors(maybe it could be added top firestartign skill, with initial penalty, based on area/surface, that then decreases as skill goes higher). Plus wind penalties on firestarting.

Dont think that "much harder" is needed, but certain penalties to make some areas preferential would be good.

[Sioux]

On 24-7-2016 at 10:57 PM, Schaumrolle24 said:

(...) Who needs 10 minutes to break a branch into 3 pieces?!

I would suggest:
Breaking down by hand takes 5 minutes, and yields 3 - 5 sticks randomly.
Breaking down with a hatchet takes 2 minutes, with the same yield.
And that the hatchet takes 2 % damage currently for every use on that, is just ridiculous. Let's say 0.5 percent?

(...)

I agree. When playing v349 I noticed it too. Btw, I really love this game, you did an awesome job Hinterland! I recently started playing again after a long time and it's amazing to experience all the great new features TLD now has.

But, back on topic: breaking a branch by hand takes far too long at the moment, 10 minutes is too much time for such an easy job. They're just small branches; to me they look like I should be able to break them apart in a few minutes. 10 minutes just doesn't feel right to me.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

On 25/07/2016 at 2:39 AM, AHGoodwin said:

Lots of great points and observations that I agree with. 

+1 Totally agree that tinder should continue to be necessary or at the very least provide a boost. 

+1 That different tinder materials should perform differently. 

+1 To needing bow skills

+1 To your suggestion for breaking branches

+1 That the snow shelter needs a bit of a nerf. 

Totally agree