spears and other pointy matters

[TheCanadianLoonie]

One thing in the long dark that bugs me is how defenseless you are when a wolf is standing on your toes.

I think a short range weapon like a spear would be a nice addition to the game!

the spear will be made of a cured maple sapling, an arrow head, some line or duct tape to attach it to the poll.

*The way to make a spear if you don't know is to take a knife, cut a slit at the top of the poll, insert arrowhead, wrap a line tightly around the connection, and voila! death spear!*

Also the spear could be upgraded to be trowed accurately!

[Vhalkyrie]

I thought of spears, too.  Our lone survivor has a long way to go in being truly industrious.

Personally, I am a fan of adding duct tape to the game.  As anyone of the MacGuyer generation knows, duct tape is the ultimate survival tool!  

[Dirmagnos]

Pff, another sappling tool. Again, whats stops me from making that spear from regular wood ?

And i have my doubts about effectiveness of duct tape in such low temperatures.

Generally spear would be a good addition, having parabolic throwing trajectory and average everything - damage, speed, range, accuracy, penetration, durability. Even hitting a wolf with it does not guarantee a kill or even damage(it could just bounce off).

[hauteecolerider]

43 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

And i have my doubts about effectiveness of duct tape in such low temperatures.

 

I can vouch - duct tape is useless below freezing. Most tape is.

[dbldrew]

making a spear would be cool.. can even just be a sharpened branch. Not the best for hunting but more useful as throwing at a wolf

[Vhalkyrie]

Should be able to make spearheads or even arrowheads from more primitive materials.  Stone Age human used sharpened bone and stones.  If a wolf makes a running charge at you, you should at least be able to impale it with a sharpened point on a branch hardened with fire.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/survivalist/survival-skills-make-fire-hardened-spear

[starfighter441]

1 hour ago, hauteecolerider said:

I can vouch - duct tape is useless below freezing. Most tape is.

Gun Tape worked fairly well, the RCAF would have fallen apart without it...

http://www.warpoet.ca/diary/gun-tape

[SteveP]

To haft a primitive spear point you need to collect pitch, melt it and mix with ashes. Then create a suitable slot in the end of the haft to take the point. Secure it with the mixture of pitch and wrap it securely with cordage or sinew. The balance problem of a spear has been discussed at length. The Wishlist Search facility is not being cooperative today. I know there are TONs of requests for spears or javelins and a lot more discussion of the game trade offs and need for balance. I don't have anything further to add. An interesting variation on the theme of spears is the atlatl and dart approach. I'd make a nice poll on the subject of weapons and weapon accoutrements but my heart just isn't in it today.

As a compromise to game play, I could suggest an arbitrary constraint that limits you to making spears only after mastering the difficult art of flint knapping or perhaps by forging spear points again requiring the player to perform certain tasks in order to acquire mastery. If the spear is to be used for hunting then it should be used with the atlatl and called an atlatl dart. You would need lots of practice to acquire the necessary skill to throw accurately. By skill I mean a skill similar to sharpening skill and fire making skill, not some feat of dexterity using the mouse.

[TheCanadianLoonie]

Hey everyone, I hear a lot about how duct tape will not work under freezing conditions, thefore I think a better sucuring method would have to be A: Metal fasteners (Hose clamp) or a thin line made of a paracord like substance or possible a wire from a downed electrical line!

[TheCanadianLoonie]

4 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Pff, another sappling tool. Again, whats stops me from making that spear from regular wood ?

And i have my doubts about effectiveness of duct tape in such low temperatures.

Generally spear would be a good addition, having parabolic throwing trajectory and average everything - damage, speed, range, accuracy, penetration, durability. Even hitting a wolf with it does not guarantee a kill or even damage(it could just bounce off).

Firewood is not very stong, I get where you are coming from and I do Agree a non-Fire wood 'wood' from the fallen limbs should be added to the game! also its a little unrealistic that I can chop up a tree and light it up like nothing, I do think that a drying process should be in order.

[Vhalkyrie]

Yes, I think we should have to season firewood.  I don't want it to take 6 months, but maybe 3 days for cedar and 7 days for fir.  Sticks are fine as is.

[TheCanadianLoonie]

3 minutes ago, Vhalkyrie said:

Yes, I think we should have to season firewood.  I don't want it to take 6 months, but maybe 3 days for cedar and 7 days for fir.  Sticks are fine as is.

Oh yeah totally! I camp a lot in northern Ontario and I have to chop my own wood, and I really only have to get a hot fire started so I only need two or three 'dry' peaces than I can add some of the more damp wood! I think that proximity to fire should have a drying effect.

[Dirmagnos]

16 hours ago, TheCanadianLoonie said:

or possible a wire from a downed electrical line!

Harvestable wire could be a nice addition to crafting arsenal.

And need to dry wood.

[Tbone555]

I'm also for spears. It's always bugged me since I've began playing

[Drazon]

Well, as it was already stated, the throwing part is kinda.. well, I wouldn't expect someone to be able to do it.

Also with using the spear other than aforementioned "against charging animal" I'd think it's going a bit over the top, unless made in such a way that you _might_ hit a non-moving target (which could just bounce a way from it) and unlikely to hit a wolf that is attacking you (only one shot on it). Animals have instincts against forthcoming attacks, but using a melee-weapon in combat requires training so it becomes a routine to be able to determine and adjust the distance and reach of the weapon in question. A predatory animal against a city-dweller (or something) with a spear, my bets might just go for the wolf. So if there would be a spear, it shouldn't be nearly as good as the bow. Kind of an in-between the knife and the torch.

[Boston123]

 

59 minutes ago, Drazon said:

Well, as it was already stated, the throwing part is kinda.. well, I wouldn't expect someone to be able to do it.

Also with using the spear other than aforementioned "against charging animal" I'd think it's going a bit over the top, unless made in such a way that you _might_ hit a non-moving target (which could just bounce a way from it) and unlikely to hit a wolf that is attacking you (only one shot on it). Animals have instincts against forthcoming attacks, but using a melee-weapon in combat requires training so it becomes a routine to be able to determine and adjust the distance and reach of the weapon in question. A predatory animal against a city-dweller (or something) with a spear, my bets might just go for the wolf. So if there would be a spear, it shouldn't be nearly as good as the bow. Kind of an in-between the knife and the torch.

AHAHAHAHA ..... No.

Using a melee weapon in combat against another human requires training, yes. Taking a pointy stick and stabbing it into an animal?

No way does that require training.

Using a spear as a throwing weapon against animals isn't a good choice, not because it wouldn't work, but because spears are balanced and intended for two main functions: throwing and thrusting, and (generally) balancing a spear for one function often means it will perform poorly at the other. It is also much easier to balance a spear for thrusting than it is for throwing.

Finally, a spear would definitely deal more damage than an arrow. It has a wider, heavier point that can cut through flesh easier.  Even a sharpened wooden point is the same diameter as an arrow.

Spears are balanced by their reach. Yes, you can attack targets (aka wolves and bears) from outside their reach, but once they get inside your spearpoint, you are screwed. 

[Drazon]

Ahem. IF you think about a scenario where a, let's say, doberman charges you and you have a spear, do you really believe you'd be able to take it down?

Now, change it to a wolf.

In games one will get accustomed to kill anything from human to dinosaurs with a spear, but that doesn't make it an easy weapon to use. A thrust is not a magically easy way to hit anything, since the movement is only the length you gain by moving your arms, or, with adding the all-important footwork to the action. And that part _with_ the aiming makes it hard. Now, take not how big of the target is of what you wish to hit at: it's not the size of the dog which is standing on a side-posture, but it's his head and torso when it's attacking you. And, in reality, animals move - they dodge with their animal reflexes. If you have ever played with a dog, you'll know their reflexes are quite, quite nice.

That's the reality part of it.

In the game the wolves just stand still. If there would be a spear in the game _and_ they'd still stand still, it would be what we call 'op'-weapon. To balance this out, there would have to be a percentuage of chance that would make you miss.

Oh yea, and one more thing... next time when you play a dog, take something soft and test out his reflexes as you try to hit it with thrusting movement (preferably with an item you hold as a spear, ie. with two hand grip, either on your waist or above your shoulder). See what happens. Add to this experience the image of an bloodthirsty animal who is not set to play with you but to eat you, and I think you will think about a spear differently.

[hauteecolerider]

As someone who has wrestled with Dobermans, Rottweilers and pit bulls, I don't think melee with a wolf is to be taken lightly. They can inflict serious injuries, even kill you, if they get up close and personal. For game purposes I don't mind melee fighting with wolves as much as I do the Bear, but IRL they are just as bad, if not worse. 

[vancopower]

On 19.3.2016 at 6:16 PM, Dirmagnos said:

Pff, another sappling tool. Again, whats stops me from making that spear from regular wood ?

And i have my doubts about effectiveness of duct tape in such low temperatures.

Generally spear would be a good addition, having parabolic throwing trajectory and average everything - damage, speed, range, accuracy, penetration, durability. Even hitting a wolf with it does not guarantee a kill or even damage(it could just bounce off).

First the elasticity of the wood, Second the shape you can not make a spear out of branches and limbs they are curved. saplings are perfect.  I know from history books Alexander the great used to order his commanders to look for the youngest trees in order to make the long phalanx spears and the history proved that he was right the spears never broke

You can however make spikes out of the limbs but throwing spears require quality wood fresh, and there are also tons of maple saplings why not use them more, just having them for the bow seems so wasteful.

[Boston123]

1) Straightening wood for shafts, both arrow and spears, is trivial. You take the shaft, warm it up over a fire (being careful not to scorch or burn it), then bend it past the degree you want it bent. Once it cools, it will be straight, or whatever angle you want it to be. 

2) From a realistic point of view, you have no reason not to make a spear in a TLD-style survival situation. 

3) I am fully confident in my ability to fight off a wolf with a spear, even "only" a fire-hardened wooden shaft, so long as it was one-on-one. (which, considering how ALL the animal attacks in TLD are 1v1, is nice) Give me a spear tipped with a knife-blade or some chipped glass, and the odds become even more in my favor.

"Willingly" fighting a wolf, much less a bear, with little more than a knife/hatchet is nonsensical. The fact that we can't take a long piece of wood and cut/rasp down a sharp tip to it as soon as we get out of the wind/cold is nonsensical, to the point of being utterly immersion-breaking to anyone with the slightest amount of wilderness survival training. Of course, many aspects of the game do this, but the "spear issue" is one of the worst IMO

The wolves in TLD attack you with impunity because we aren't actively defending ourselves. Even if all we had was a knife/hatchet, the fact that we don't brandish it before us before the wolf jumps on us and knocks us over is ....... nonsensical. Instead, we wait until the animal jumps on our chest and chews on our throat, for some reason. Predators are smart, and even animals are capable of recognizing a threat when it is presented. Waving a knife, hatchet, even a chunk of sturdy firewood in front of you makes you almost exponentially more of a threat in the eyes of a predator, as opposed to just standing there and taking the charge. Spears are very effective at this because they extend your reach beyond arms reach. A quick jab would prevent an animal from getting close, and a solid thrust would at least give you a chance against a charge, much less setting it into the ground.

Spears, as I have stated over and over again, are intrinsically balanced due to their reach. Once an animal gets within the reach of the spearpoint, the spear is useless. You would have one chance to stab a charging animal.

Case in point: yesterday, I went to my local forest. While there, I cut a 5 foot branch off a tree. After bending it straight between two tree trunks, I cut a sharp tip on it with my knife. With literally 5 minutes of work, I made a spear that would kill any animal up to deer-size. Even better, I can make more than one, and carry them in my off hand.

Why people think we should be able to make a bow and not a spear is beyond me. Spears were probably the 2nd or 3rd weapons used by humankind, indeed, even before we were "modern humans". If they weren't effective, they wouldn't have been used, quite simple.

For everyone screaming about "Balance"....... God forbid we actually use effective survival tactics . For some odd reason, many forumgoers think that "balancing" equals "all-but-cripple yourself, both in tactics and equipment"  Spears, by their very nature, are "balanced". 

[Dirmagnos]

What elasticity ? Arrows has been made for centuries with anything that can be found in vicinity. Sure, certain wood types are better for arrows, but it doesnt mean that everything else is completely unusable. A crude arrow made out of stick is better than no arrow at all.

And in what universe saplings are perfect ? They tend to be as curved as any stick. They can be shaped, but so do sticks.

Kids has been making crude bows and arrows out of complete junk and do plenty of damage with those.

[Drazon]

I think the Devs don't wish to be another 'hack'n'slash'-survival game, so they have chosen to make the melee-combat such that it is. And, personally, I think this is a great choice, since if someone wants to beat animals in aforementioned style, there are plenty and more games for that.

But, IF there would be a spear in game, perhaps it could be implemented in such a way that when you are attacked, you get this 'bar' - such as in golfing games - (my vocabularity lacks in here so I hope you know what I mean) and it has certain line - a red line, for example - where you have to be able to stop a moving meter (another line). But this should be done in such a way that you could not master it so that you'd learn to score it 75%+ of the times. The moving meter would be so fast and start from random position (top, bottom, near or far from the red line) that it would be a lucky-shot reflex game, more or less, each and every time. So whenever you'd succeed in defending yourself against this creature - preventing it from going to the old good smash-the-mousebutton screen - you'd be surprised and satisfied to yourself. So, in the end, you couldn't _count_ on your spear, but it just might save you - from time to time. Perhaps even at some critical moment when you really couldn't take the biting.

[Dirmagnos]

Pls no quick time events. This is one of the most idiotic inventions in gaming industrie. Raping your keyboard fighting away a wolf is already annoying enough.

[Pasquinel]

Hi.

Yes spears would be an appropriate addition, after all I think it was one of humankind's earliest inventions. A basic spear can be made from sharpening a long stick/pole then hardening the point in fire. If you want to add a different kind of point, an antler or hunting knife blade, comes to mind. To attach the point boiled gut or sinew wrapped around the end would do the trick. 

This would be one of the first and most easily crafted tools I would make in this environment. It would serve as a walking stick and primarily a defensive weapon for wolves and even bears.

The ubiquitous Duct Tape should be in there,  maybe not for making spears but certainly for repairing things like boots etc.

[Pasquinel]

19 hours ago, Drazon said:

I think the Devs don't wish to be another 'hack'n'slash'-survival game, so they have chosen to make the melee-combat such that it is. And, personally, I think this is a great choice, since if someone wants to beat animals in aforementioned style, there are plenty and more games for that.

But, IF there would be a spear in game, perhaps it could be implemented in such a way that when you are attacked, you get this 'bar' - such as in golfing games - (my vocabularity lacks in here so I hope you know what I mean) and it has certain line - a red line, for example - where you have to be able to stop a moving meter (another line). But this should be done in such a way that you could not master it so that you'd learn to score it 75%+ of the times. The moving meter would be so fast and start from random position (top, bottom, near or far from the red line) that it would be a lucky-shot reflex game, more or less, each and every time. So whenever you'd succeed in defending yourself against this creature - preventing it from going to the old good smash-the-mousebutton screen - you'd be surprised and satisfied to yourself. So, in the end, you couldn't _count_ on your spear, but it just might save you - from time to time. Perhaps even at some critical moment when you really couldn't take the biting.

Right I think of the spear as more defensive too rather than to be used to go hunting with. Like you said really to be used to perhaps stop from getting mauled when your weak and tired even if it's just a deterrent. I know there are torches and flares but these expire or run out. A spear could be longer lasting. It seems to be an immersion thing too. This is one thing I would naturally make if I were in this situation and real concerned about being attacked by wild dogs or wolves.