1000 Days in the Dam: An exercise in inventory control

[sarudak]

I think these balancing notes could be really valuable to the devs. It's important that the forged tools be worth making once the scavenged axe and knife wear out. 

[Jolan]

On 6/17/2016 at 4:55 PM, Drifter Man said:

Thanks! It means a lot to me that people keep coming back to read and discuss. It's a great motivator for me to keep writing!

I make decisions based off of you data 

 

[Pillock]

10 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

I knew that the hatchet is a convenience rather than a necessity. Enough firewood can be obtained by collecting sticks, which gets even easier at firestarting level 5. I thought that at least the improvised knife should give me an advantage in harvesting meat from carcasses, but it doesn't. It loses 1% per each 30 minutes of work on a carcass, twice as fast as the hacksaw. Meaning that I get only 112.5 kg of meat per scrap metal using the improvised knife compared to 150 kg using the hacksaw. The improvised tools are waste of metal, cloth and fuel, plus the arduous journey to Desolation Point and back. Get the hacksaw, collect sticks, you'll be much better off.

You never ever harvest wood, then? What about breaking up furniture? You can use the heavy hammer for the latter, I guess, but it's heavy to carry. Do you think there's any advantage to breaking branches, and is the hatchet worth using for that?

I guess if you can survive on sticks alone, then wear-and-tear on tools for harvesting wood is always a waste?

I suppose this could be balanced by giving your carried inventory a sense of volume as well as weight - ie. you can't physically carry as many sticks as as the equivalent fuel value in logs because they would take up much more space, meaning stick collection would perhaps be less time-efficient.

[Drifter Man]

10 hours ago, Pillock said:

You never ever harvest wood, then? What about breaking up furniture? You can use the heavy hammer for the latter, I guess, but it's heavy to carry. Do you think there's any advantage to breaking branches, and is the hatchet worth using for that?

I guess if you can survive on sticks alone, then wear-and-tear on tools for harvesting wood is always a waste?

I suppose this could be balanced by giving your carried inventory a sense of volume as well as weight - ie. you can't physically carry as many sticks as as the equivalent fuel value in logs because they would take up much more space, meaning stick collection would perhaps be less time-efficient.

I almost never harvest wood. The exception is on trips when I don't want to waste time looking for good locations with lots of sticks. I once measured the cost of collecting sticks (time and calories) in the Ravine - and I actually don't lose any time or calories by collecting sticks. Of course, if sticks are rare where you stay, and you have to walk more to get them, the balance may change. But for me, using hatchet means no advantage in this respect.

As for furniture, I've broken up quite a lot of it. I've cleared all crates in the Dam and nearly all benches and chairs between Trapper's cabin and the Lighthouse. I still haven't broken a single hatchet, although one is at 15% and another at 45%, I think. I have about 6 more good ones. So I'm not saying that the hatchet is useless, but I don't need so many hatchets for survival as to need to craft replacements for them.

Having a measure for volume as well as weight could be a good general addition to the game. But in my opinion, a more effective way to make sticks less attractive would be 1) to reduce hatchet wear (currently flat 2% per use as far as I know - I think this applies to branches as well), 2) make sticks less common and spread them out, making it more difficult to collect enough of them, 3) lower the duration of fire you can get out of 1 stick (or increase the same for firewood).

[Drifter Man]

20 hours ago, sarudak said:

I think these balancing notes could be really valuable to the devs. It's important that the forged tools be worth making once the scavenged axe and knife wear out. 

Indeed, if the point of the forge is to allow the player to extend his/her life once the scavenged items wear out, then it really doesn't work. There are more efficient ways to achieve that end.

[Drifter Man]

19 hours ago, Jolan said:

I make decisions based off of you data 

If I can help save one long, dark life - like @Pillock did - it was worth it

[Berniyh]

Since the hatchet and the knife combined are 2 kg, improvised tools could be helpful to reduce the weight one has to carry around. Here in The Long Dark, every kilo can help.

Having say that, the improvised tools do actually way more (2.5 kg combined), so I don't see a point in crafting them as well.

There are so many hatchets and knifes, you really don't need them. Only maybe if one wants to start a game in Desolation Point and stay there for X days.

In my save, I only went there to loot the whole of DP and to craft all of the arrow heads I ever will need (about 30, iirc). While I left some stuff there I have no intention to go back, especially not since in Crumbling Highway it's almost impossible to get through without wasting a bullet or some clothing percentage on one of those wolves (the second choice being dangerous because there are often two of them around).

So: Make the improvised tools significantly lighter than the other onces (maybe 1-1.5 kg combined) and I might start to think about it, but only then.

[Drifter Man]

On 7/2/2016 at 5:04 PM, Berniyh said:

So: Make the improvised tools significantly lighter than the other onces (maybe 1-1.5 kg combined) and I might start to think about it, but only then.

It is a valid point, of course, but I feel the original idea was for them to make imperfect replacements for the tools that are made professionally: heavier, slower to work with and faster to wear out. The player would have to resort to improvised tools once the pre-made tools are all used up and broken. And that doesn't work, not because they are too heavy, but because the hacksaw does the same job better. The hacksaw allows the player to harvest more meat per 1 piece of scrap metal and more importantly, once you have the hacksaw, you can repair it anywhere with scrap and a toolbox. No need to go to DP.

On 7/2/2016 at 5:04 PM, Berniyh said:

in Crumbling Highway it's almost impossible to get through

Exactly. Last time I brought four wolf pelts from there only to be attacked by a fifth wolf. I have no intention to pass through Crumbling Highway until I need to restock on pelts.

[Docterrok]

1 hour ago, Drifter Man said:

It is a valid point, of course, but I feel the original idea was for them to make imperfect replacements for the tools that are made professionally: heavier, slower to work with and faster to wear out. The player would have to resort to improvised tools once the pre-made tools are all used up and broken. And that doesn't work, not because they are too heavy, but because the hacksaw does the same job better. The hacksaw allows the player to harvest more meat per 1 piece of scrap metal and more importantly, once you have the hacksaw, you can repair it anywhere with scrap and a toolbox. No need to go to DP.

Exactly. Last time I brought four wolf pelts from there only to be attacked by a fifth wolf. I have no intention to pass through Crumbling Highway until I need to restock on pelts.

Idk if this is a bad idea, but I usually kill wolves with a knife, if you click at just the right time, you slice them.

[Drifter Man]

Day 807 (710th day in the Dam)

During one of my regular trips to the Ravine I noticed crows circling deep down above the basin, indicating that a corpse or a carcass was added in the last update. On the nearest opportunity I roped down and I wasn't disappointed.

There was a human corpse, from which I salvaged the expedition parka and an MRE pack. In addition, new search of the abandoned train engine produced a copy of the "Guns Guns Guns" magazine, which, as I figured out, was about guns. The parka will serve as a backup for my wolf coat, but for the time being, wolfskin coat is preferred. Wolf pelts are renewable, cloth is not.

I also noticed reishi mushrooms on the river bank opposite to the entrance to the Dam. Knowing that I had stripped the Mystery Lake region of almost all resources, and aware of the value of the new books, I set out for a new search of the Map, which eventually took three days. As it turned out, the whole map was apparently "reset" in the update and everything growing was back again - lichens, mushrooms, rose hips, cattail stalks and above all, birch and maple saplings. My trip yielded three books  - copies of those I already had from CH, but even then I could research them again and got extra points for skill - and a ton of medicinal plants along with ten birch and two maple saplings. I'm stocked up for approximately forever, and I didn't even cover the whole map.

The "reset" also caused old locations to be marked as "new discovered locations" again, invalidating the "% world explored" stats counter. It was nice to see Trapper's Homestead after two years again, though. Including the six liters of water I left there back then, which were still very much drinkable

I've achieved harvesting skill level 3 and cooking skill level 4. As I observed, harvesting skill seems to grow by one point per 1 hour of work on a carcass, while cooking skill grows with every piece of meat I cook. When you process about 5-6 rabbits a day, you get there fairly quickly. Firestarting is at level 5 already and the other two skill categories do not have immediate effect on my survival mathematics. I can understand the complaints about the game becoming way, way too easy, because this is exactly what happens when your skill levels grow. Note that the pre-Penitent Scholar parameters were equivalent to skill level 1.

Let's start from the top. The 25% reduction in harvesting times looks innocent, but it means a 25% reduction in calories spent while harvesting - that's about 40 Cal per day for me - and 25% reduction in tool wear, because tool wear is fixed to time, not to the amount of meat harvested. The effects of cooking skill level 4 are even more profound: 20% more calories from each piece of meat also means 20% less wildlife I need to catch, 20% less time needed to cook the meat, 20% less firewood + further 20% reduction in firewood needs due to shorter cooking times + further 33% reduction due to firestarting skill level 5. Soon I will need no fire at all, I guess...

All in all, the amount of meat needed is now at 82% of Tireless Menace, and the amount of firewood needed is at 51%.

***

I'd like to thank @Ruruwawa for making me aware of the usefulness of the bait tactic. So far it has worked for me very reliably. The wolf slows down and I have time to walk away.

[Drifter Man]

24 minutes ago, Docterrok said:

I usually kill wolves with a knife, if you click at just the right time, you slice them.

Can you elaborate, please? I just click as fast as I can, hoping for the best.

[Docterrok]

55 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

Can you elaborate, please? I just click as fast as I can, hoping for the best.

Right when they are about to pounce, you slice them, come back in about 4 hours and look around where you sliced them, they usually return and die. Sorry for delay, I was tending my garden. 

[TLD Survivalist]

I call BS lol

But @Drifter Man just hopped on this thread and you have some seriously compelling data here overall

 

[Jolan]

17 hours ago, Docterrok said:

Right when they are about to pounce, you slice them, come back in about 4 hours and look around where you sliced them, they usually return and die. Sorry for delay, I was tending my garden. 

It helps if you scream "Die, die, die" while you do it.  Really.  

[Drifter Man]

On 7/3/2016 at 11:35 PM, Docterrok said:

Right when they are about to pounce, you slice them

Sounds easy  So far I've had the impression that I cannot attack with knife before the fight begins, and afterwards it is only the button-mashing frequency that matters. I don't plan to deliberately take on wolves, but I'll try to keep in mind what you said next time I'm attacked.

[Drifter Man]

On 7/3/2016 at 11:36 PM, TLD Survivalist said:

But @Drifter Man just hopped on this thread and you have some seriously compelling data here overall

This game doesn't offer that many things to do once you are settled. So I measure, calculate and take notes of everything, and each update brings a surge in my activity. I intend to do this until I die 

[Drifter Man]

6 hours ago, Jolan said:

It helps if you scream "Die, die, die" while you do it.  Really.  

I wonder if it also works when I scream in my own language ("Chcípni!"). I'll give it a try

[Drifter Man]

Day 812 (715th day in the Dam)

After collecting and counting all the stuff I brought back from my recent trip to Mystery Lake, I got second thoughts about this. The main goal of this exercise is to find out how long I can survive in this world. Using resources that spawned for a second time as an unintended side-effect of an update does not help that purpose. So I took all those saplings, mushrooms etc. and put them into an "illegal container" which I set up for items that spawned due to bugs, and that I don't want to use.

Yesterday I used my first match after I-don't-know-how-long. There was no sun for several days in a row and I was running out of cooked meat. With my newly acquired cooking prowess, I cooked 30 rabbits in about 8 hours and still had nearly 4 hours left for water. All this for less than 70 sticks. Needless to say, the next day was sunny...

[hauteecolerider]

2 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

Yesterday I used my first match after I-don't-know-how-long. There was no sun for several days in a row and I was running out of cooked meat. With my newly acquired cooking prowess, I cooked 30 rabbits in about 8 hours and still had nearly 4 hours left for water. All this for less than 70 sticks. Needless to say, the next day was sunny...

[Pillock]

7 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

Using resources that spawned for a second time as an unintended side-effect of an update does not help that purpose. So I took all those saplings, mushrooms etc. and put them into an "illegal container" which I set up for items that spawned due to bugs, and that I don't want to use.

It's up to you, but I wouldn't worry about that.

The game has given you various resources, and will continue to give more as updates progress, as well as take some away, and make others more or less useful than before. For example, you lost some equipment due to map remodelling in the past, so it's swings and roundabouts.

If I were you I'd just treat all these events as part of the journey through the Alpha development of the game, and just utilise what you have as best you can.

You still have the data, and that data will inevitably need to be altered as things change - how long you can survive in the final version of the game will be quite different from how long you can survive now, or how long you could have survived under previous versions. What matters is the data you collect, and the projections based on that data relating to current mechanics - the resources you have at whatever point in time seems to me to be less important.

[Jolan]

5 hours ago, Pillock said:

It's up to you, but I wouldn't worry about that.

The game has given you various resources, and will continue to give more as updates progress, as well as take some away, and make others more or less useful than before. For example, you lost some equipment due to map remodelling in the past, so it's swings and roundabouts.

If I were you I'd just treat all these events as part of the journey through the Alpha development of the game, and just utilise what you have as best you can.

You still have the data, and that data will inevitably need to be altered as things change - how long you can survive in the final version of the game will be quite different from how long you can survive now, or how long you could have survived under previous versions. What matters is the data you collect, and the projections based on that data relating to current mechanics - the resources you have at whatever point in time seems to me to be less important.

I see your point Pillock, and in my game I cackled wildy and headed out to forage.  But for this experiment, I kinda agree with Drifter.  Its an issue of proper controls.

[Drifter Man]

I, too, understand @Pillock's standpoint, and this was exactly how I was thinking at first. But in reality it does matter how much I have. For instance, the ten extra birch saplings could be converted to up to 120 deer hides that I wouldn't otherwise have. This means I would be able to repair crafted clothes longer or more frequently, and spend more cloth on bedroll repairs instead of keeping my basic clothes in shape. It would affect my decision-making process.

Secondly, I complained somewhere else in this forum that resources are too abundant, making the player essentially immortal. It would go against the idea if I tried to hoard even more by exploiting this situation. If the saplings grew back naturally after two years, it would be different, but I don't think they did.

Thanks for your ideas, though!

[Berniyh]

Rabbits seem to work fine to get through in TLD.

I'm (almost) doing that myself now (in the Farmstead in PV). I usually snare 3-4 rabbits per day.

If you leave the hide (don't need that many) and take the guts from maybe 1/3 of them you also don't need much time and calories to harvest the carcasses.
In the beginning however you might either need 2 rabbit zones or additional food to survive, because only after cooking skill 3 or 4 you get enough calories from the rabbits (as you pointed out above).

While deers are easier to hunt, I think that bears are worth looking at as well, at least on voyager.
I've shot the bear that comes by the farmstead on PV. Shot it in the back, just like you taught us (regarding deers :D).

bears have the advantage that they follow a pre-determined path, so you know where you have to look for them. In my case it went almost back to it's cave where I could harvest it over the next 2-3 days (mainly being stopped by blizzards and fog).
That gave be approx. 30 kg of meat whith 1035 kcal/kg, so in the range of 30000 calories. For one arrow use! (Well, actually two, because I suck at shooting with the bow.) And I got both arrows back.

The bear returned approx. 1-2 weeks later, so right about in time. I'll leave it alone for the time being though, now rabbits are enough for me, I think.
 

[Drifter Man]

@Berniyh I'm thinking along the same lines. Four rabbits a day are enough at cooking skill 4. I can't get four rabbits a day from any of the rabbit zones in the Ravine alone, but I've noticed that two of them give about 3 and the other one gives 2, on average. So I can imagine that some zones in the world can give more rabbits than others, and then one zone can be enough for a character to survive. However, I use the abundance of rabbits in the Ravine to save myself some free days for other activities (get a lot of rabbits fast, then have a few days for other things). Other than that, I go about the rabbit business much like you do.

Bears are worth looking at. A combination of bear hunting + one rabbit zone could allow a very efficient way of survival. I have two problems with bears, though. 1) they give you no clothing, you still need to hunt deer to repair your furs, 2) they are dangerous. I'm afraid that if I hunt them regularly, one day I will make a mistake, and it will be the end of me.

[Jolan]

1 hour ago, Drifter Man said:

Bears are worth looking at. A combination of bear hunting + one rabbit zone could allow a very efficient way of survival. I have two problems with bears, though. 1) they give you no clothing, you still need to hunt deer to repair your furs, 2) they are dangerous. I'm afraid that if I hunt them regularly, one day I will make a mistake, and it will be the end of me.

I stopped hunting bears because they actually give you too much meat.  I only hunt them when I'm on Timberwolf Mountain because you bled calories up there.  And they're dangerous, misjudge your timing and they'll smack you around before wandering off to die.