Would you like if animals could freely roam around the Map?

[Shadox]

Would you prefer Animal behavior as it is, with fixed spots and paths they return to for every type, or would you prefer them to walk around freely?

I've just seen a Wolf right under the Trappers hut, something i've seen for the first time in over 1000 hours played in TLD. It felt surprising, i was trying to figure out where the heck it came from since i didnt had anything smelly on me, and checking out its foodprints told me that it spawned there out of nowhere. For whatever reason. But it was a fun sight

It was nice to see such a surprise, and that made me think about starting this thread. Usually when you know the maps, you know where you need to draw the bow because wolves can be there, you know where to hunt deers, bears etc. Which is nice if you going for specific pelts or so.

But i think it would be even a little more immersive (despite TLD being already probably the most immersive survivalgame of all time) if animals could move free around the map. This could of course lead to some unwanted/dangerous surprises, but i would like that even more.

What do you think about it?Yes, No, Maybe (Custom Option)?

[Leeanda]

I'm kind of torn on this.. I like the bear and moose having set places  but the rest I sort of would prefer them to wander.  I see very little of anything as it is now unless I spend ages trekking the maps so it might actually help with that.   Using snares for rabbits would be tricky though🤔

[Shadox]

50 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

I'm kind of torn on this.. I like the bear and moose having set places  but the rest I sort of would prefer them to wander.  I see very little of anything as it is now unless I spend ages trekking the maps so it might actually help with that.   Using snares for rabbits would be tricky though🤔

Yeah, i'd be cool if they have fixed spawn places but wander around freely. But always return to their den at night, so if one has trouble finding them, one could pick a clear night to hunt a bear in its den. Mooses are elusive enough as they are, but for wolfs/deers that would be amazing. And we might see those wolf-chasing-deer moments without actively chasing a deer towards a wolf, to use up only 1 arrow condition or bypass that area more easy.

Well, Snares might work on places they could spawn before venturing out, or a sort of sleep place they return to. Something similar like the yellow bone cave marking a bear cave, just for rabbits, for example. Thats at least how i would imagine it

[stratvox]

I've put a fairly solid amount of thought on this, and there are a few issues I can think of. None insurmountable, but definitely there, esp. since Hinterland is a small company.

Ultimately I'd like to see regions functioning as complete ecosystems with animal movements being determined by the choices they're making as they pursue food, water, and safety from predators/competitors, and keeping in mind that some animals have homes and some do not; for example bears have their caves and rabbits have their burrows, but deer, wolves, and moose are more nomadic in their natures, and I'd also expect some animals (like the bear) to be willing to travel far to pursue food. For example, I for one am very happy about timberwolves and their cooperative natures because it rings truer to wolves' nature; they are like humans in that they are pack hunters that hunt animals by pursuing to exhaustion, however I have heard a LOT of folks complaining about timberwolves because I guess they weren't willing to go to the trouble of figuring out how to manage them effectively. If you do them right they will straight up stop bothering you as the survivors of the pack have concluded that you, the player, are simply not worth the trouble (that's what the morale bar is all about). This means that it's better for the player to NOT kill them all because if you kill an entire pack when a new pack spawns it won't remember you for the deadly threat you are to their survival. 

I can see how this would cause the folks at Hinterland some pause about the idea of broadly reworking animal AI and ecosystem effects causing migration around the map; the reaction to timberwolves has not, by and large, been very positive, even though I love 'em (and sacrificed lots of runs to figure out how to manage them).

There are even resources available for the grazers (rabbits/deer) in the form of the terrain scatters, which could influence their movements (deer moving rapidly, while rabbits change locations less often due to the need to dig new burrows). Predators would then also be trying to find them because that is how they get to eat as well, while also lone wolves running away from bears and moose but wolf packs perhaps being willing to go after them if the pack is large enough.

I'd also point out that it's apparent that they're using the existing system to simulate this somewhat, even if imperfectly, but ... I suspect you need to spend some time playing in the deep game to be able to see it. For example I'm close to two hundred days in in Forsaken Airfield, and while the bears remain statically attached to their caves, the deer, rabbits, and wolves are clearly changing spawn points over time so that this week there's a bunch of deer on the shore of Shoulder Lake but next week they're over between the Airfield and Surveyor's Memory and the week after that they're over by Spotter's Blind, with wolves behaving approximately similarly. This is a reasonably good computationally cheap way to try to simulate this but unlike a true simulation (where all the animals on a map are agents that make decisions on either the real map or an idealized graph version of the same) this doesn't allow for animal behaviour to change as they react to you, the player. On the gripping hand, multi-dimensional simulations of that kind can get pretty computationally challenging pretty quickly, which would have a pretty profound effect on overall performance of the game.

Anyway. It's fun to think about, also fun to reason about. I think it could be pretty cool to figure out ways to make real quasi-ecosystem simulation possible, and may be a cool mod that someone could put together once modding becomes a real thing with a truly stable modding API etc. For example, there's almost always a relatively large herd of deer in FA (largest I've ever seen in the game BY FAR) with usually five or six does and one or two bucks; sometime when the player is hunting them it'd be interesting to see the two bucks decide to attack the player using their antlers and hooves (similarly but not the same to what the moose does) in order to protect their herd; I'm sure we've all seen those videos of a deer buck attacking that hunter and totally pwning his ass despite the fact that he had a rifle.

Edited February 22, 2023 by stratvox
added some stuff to clarify

[Shadox]

Thanks alot for this detailed reply, Stratfox!

This sounds way too cool, that surely would be extremely difficult for such a small company to recreate, but i would LOVE it!

Even though im a Interloper player, i kind of like the timberwolf behaviour too. Its more real, and they look more real as well. But i woulnd want them on too many maps. As long you have blue flares, they are rather easy to deal with, and i dont engage them without blue flares. That restricts the time i spend on BI/Blackrock, this would be different on lower difficultys where you cant get like 3 bleed wounds from one jump. Still have 9 Blue Flares though, im very glad about the increased spawn rate of those. Since im on Day 416 Interloper again and its probably gonna be a ultra long run again, i'd rather keep them for those BI saw mill trips when the last 4 whetstones are out, rather than stumbling around more in Blackrock just for fun Or new map if there are timberwolfs in it, who knows.

The idea of changing spawn points you observed in FA is amazing as well, i didnt know that. This, together with new spawn points and patrol areas that can overlap (deer and wolf) would probably the easist way to simulate this.

One problem instantly coming to mind is that there should be a mechanic that prevents that like every deer on the map gets eaten while youre inside crafting stuff. So it should be sort of a rendering balance, it would be interesting to see those chases or at least some new deer carcasses already happening when wandering around, but animals popping up right in front of you would be a immersion breaker as well. Damn, now i imagine a Deer running past me, with a wolf behind it, just when im collecting sticks north of trapper's. That would be so funny🤣

Still, as clever as Hinterland is with their ability to hide items so well in corners and stuff, i think they could figure out a way to make it work. FA and its transition areas fit perfectly like a puzzle into that muskeg/BR trainline, without being planned in first hand, they are creative enough for that. Im sure

Edited February 22, 2023 by Shadox

[Leeanda]

I'm intrigued to see the herds in the new areas..  if they could move around in all maps that way that'd be great..I don't think the moose would be a good idea  though,as @Shadox said they are way too elusive,and unpredictable already.you could go months not finding one. 

deer and wolves already run randomly for long distances when injured so would it be hard to adapt that action  into walking mode ?

[ajb1978]

I prefer things as-is. Animals typically do stick within certain territories anyway, particularly when they already have an established herd or pack. An animal that's been rejected from its herd or pack though might travel great distances, seeking a new place to call "home" that's far enough away that they won't be harassed by their former group.

Solitary creatures like bear or moose also have a place that they call "home" that they typically don't stray too far from.

[conanjaguar]

I’m all for more replayability and variability. Besides, I have a slight hunch that this might be a part of the animal refresh.

But I would make it a custom option… that is always on on default ‘Loper.

[TonyInPleasantValley]

So having random spawns of animals would be  a completely different game. I know there are areas I can go where I will not be attacked, so making it completely random would mean I cannot go anywhere without the possibility of being attacked. The game is hard as is. I don't play on the harder levels even, and it is hard. There are so many variables, so many way to screw up, that having some amount of knowledge about animal behavior is needed to move about the map. Otherwise, it is TOTAL CHAOS and well, that sounds too much like real life that we are using this game to escape from, lol. I like the current setup...I know if I am going from point a to point b, that I will likely encounter wolves or bears. Moose are a bit of a wild card. Then new mountain lion, well we will see. I like that bunnies are where they spawn as well as deer. I think having some safe areas is a good thing for the game, or else survival becomes too hard...and it is pretty hard as is. My 2 pennies...

[peteloud]

Perhaps just larger territories for animals and  greater randomisation woud be a much simpler solution.

[deviro_verity]

I would love if animals free roamed. It has lots of caveats though.

It would increase the difficulty of the game by a lot, which is something HL doesn't want I believe. The game has gradually become easier over the years anyway (with the addition of new mechanics (gunsmithing for example) and regions)).

In a long enough time scale deer and rabbits would start becoming rarer because they would get eaten by the predators. Which means maps would feel lonelier than it is right now (which I'm personally not that opposed by it).

Balancing this whole ordeal of spawning enough rabbits and deer to offset them getting killed by wolves or decreasing the amount of wolves is very very delicate and downright subjective. A lot of people might even believe that has ruined their experience. Roaming animals is fine, but less of this or that animal would break the game.

My suggestion would be to gradually change the animal roaming/spawning areas that are currently in game. HL could designate a certain % of a region as roamable terrain by animals. Then divide it in whatever chunks they want for this and that group of deer, wolves, rabbits, moose and then spawn the animals. These areas would gradually shift around.

It would be a difficult sliding puzzle to solve for each region, but the illusion of migration and soft-roaming would be there. It would be cool if we saw it in real time as well. One morning you come out of your cabin and see 4 deer move out from the spot they were at for 30 days and wolves move in and take that spot behind them after a few minutes.

The current system doesn't make any sense and stands out as too ambiguous (the way gathering wood through a menu was) in a game that is so systems driven (the weather for example).

Definitely looking forward to the animal balance update whenever that is, which will shake things up for experienced interloper players like me.

[MarrowStone]

From what I've experienced, the animals are much more varied and unpredictable since the FA update. They stay in their relavltive zones but can be anywhere in that. Also sometimes they'll despawn and reappear in another zone accross the map. I think it's good enough as is but  a few more specificbehaviors based on their needs would be great.

For example, I keep dying to wolves during a blizzard, when theyre supposed to despawn. They should have a sheltered area they head to during storms and if you stir them up they should act terriorial and not hungry. Escaping their turf or wasting their time should be enough to deter them and they shouldn't go into full hunt mode on you. 

[odizzido]

I would like it, but it's not going to happen. At least not officially.